Jesus was created

Where Christians can talk among themselves, and about those Godless atheists.

Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:40 pm

mitchellmckain wrote:
kjw47 wrote:The actual Hebrew wording in the ot is more like--I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be-- not I am that I am.


I am not finding ANY translation of the Bible which confirms anything of the sort. This is an example of JWs rewriting the Bible to support their theology.

New International Version
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

New Living Translation
God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."

English Standard Version
God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

New American Standard Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

King James Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."

International Standard Version
God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and then said, "Tell the Israelis: 'I AM sent me to you.'"

NET Bible
God said to Moses, "I am that I am." And he said, "You must say this to the Israelites, 'I am has sent me to you.'"

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God answered Moses, "I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: 'I Am has sent me to you.'"

JPS Tanakh 1917
And God said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.'

New American Standard 1977
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Jubilee Bible 2000
And God answered unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the sons of Israel: I AM (YHWH) has sent me unto you.

King James 2000 Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you.

American King James Version
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

American Standard Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.

Darby Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.

English Revised Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Webster's Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you.

World English Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith unto Moses, 'I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, 'Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'

Notice that one of these are JEWISH translations too. How about another Jewish translations:

God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"


Let's look at the Hebrew:
'eh-yeh aser 'eh-yeh == אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה

Looking at how the first (and third) word is translated in the rest of the bible we find
'eh-yeh translated as I am, I become, (I) have been, I was, I will be (like)
Not once do we ever see it translated as "I shall prove to be".

Now the second word
aser is translated as who, which, whose, when, what, with, that, where, after
The translation as "who" makes the most sense in the context because God is addressing Moses' question about what he should be called (i.e about who He is).


Finally lets look at the CONTEXT.
13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”


The same word 'eh-yeh is used in the Hebrew in all three cases underlined. Does it really make sense to translate this as

I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be and say the people of Israel, 'I shall prove to be has sent me to you.'

WHY are the JWs twisting this passage so FAR out of shape. It is because the straight forward reading of this where God is reluctant to give any name to Moses is so diametrically opposed to JWs self-righteous obsession with giving God the right name of "Jehovah". It is REALLY bizarre! Almost a comedy, I would say.



I will be what I will be is the same as I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be.( I am that I am is the mistranslation .
And no matter which it is--it is not Gods personal name
And No Jesus did not say he was God by saying I am--he answered the question asked of him--that is all--trinities twist it into trying to teach that Jesus was claiming to be God, but he was not.
Nothing the Pharisees taught about Jesus was truth.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby One16Unashamed » Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:38 pm

Why was Jesus considered a blasphemous individual by the Pharisees?
"In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that-and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison-you do not know God." -C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:42 am

One16Unashamed wrote:Why was Jesus considered a blasphemous individual by the Pharisees?



Because they had placed themselves on a pedastel above the flock--They referred to the flock as Amharets( basically means--giving table scraps to the dogs--this is spiritual table scraps in this case)-- They were expecting a mighty king to battle the roman armies and wipe them out upon his( Messiah) appearance. they were wrong--along came a mere carpenters son, telling them they needed to make correction--their hearts turned to hatred for Jesus and they started teaching lies about him--not 1 thing they taught about Jesus was truth.
They never broke Gods laws--but they tried Jesus the first night he was arrested( Gods law was 7 days to build a defense) breaking Gods law, that is how much hatred they had for Jesus.--They tried to kill Jesus a few times before these events. Jesus probably assured them as well that they had lost Gods favor at that point to.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby One16Unashamed » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:29 pm

kjw47 wrote:
One16Unashamed wrote:Why was Jesus considered a blasphemous individual by the Pharisees?



Because they had placed themselves on a pedastel above the flock--They referred to the flock as Amharets( basically means--giving table scraps to the dogs--this is spiritual table scraps in this case)-- They were expecting a mighty king to battle the roman armies and wipe them out upon his( Messiah) appearance. they were wrong--along came a mere carpenters son, telling them they needed to make correction--their hearts turned to hatred for Jesus and they started teaching lies about him--not 1 thing they taught about Jesus was truth.
They never broke Gods laws--but they tried Jesus the first night he was arrested( Gods law was 7 days to build a defense) breaking Gods law, that is how much hatred they had for Jesus.--They tried to kill Jesus a few times before these events. Jesus probably assured them as well that they had lost Gods favor at that point to.


Why the charge of blasphemy?
"In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that-and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison-you do not know God." -C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:14 am

One16Unashamed wrote:
kjw47 wrote:
One16Unashamed wrote:Why was Jesus considered a blasphemous individual by the Pharisees?



Because they had placed themselves on a pedastel above the flock--They referred to the flock as Amharets( basically means--giving table scraps to the dogs--this is spiritual table scraps in this case)-- They were expecting a mighty king to battle the roman armies and wipe them out upon his( Messiah) appearance. they were wrong--along came a mere carpenters son, telling them they needed to make correction--their hearts turned to hatred for Jesus and they started teaching lies about him--not 1 thing they taught about Jesus was truth.
They never broke Gods laws--but they tried Jesus the first night he was arrested( Gods law was 7 days to build a defense) breaking Gods law, that is how much hatred they had for Jesus.--They tried to kill Jesus a few times before these events. Jesus probably assured them as well that they had lost Gods favor at that point to.


Why the charge of blasphemy?



They were obviously confused. being mislead by satan at that point.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby One16Unashamed » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:46 am

What was misleading? Something He said or did? These guys knew the OT law better than anyone.
"In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that-and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison-you do not know God." -C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:24 pm

One16Unashamed wrote:What was misleading? Something He said or did? These guys knew the OT law better than anyone.




Yes they knew the ot and all the law---- Yet twisted the Messiahs coming to believe he would come as a mighty king on the spot and destroy the romans---they were wrong- confused. And in that confusion taught many lies about their own Messiah--they turned their hearts to hatred and tried to kill him a few times. They were no longer Gods chosen at that point-Matt 23.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby One16Unashamed » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:20 pm

But why the charge of blasphemy?
"In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that-and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison-you do not know God." -C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:31 pm

One16Unashamed wrote:But why the charge of blasphemy?



Hatred-- they also were saying that Jesus got his power from satan--they were confused. I showed you--they had placed themselves on pedastels above the flock--thinking they were all this and that--and then a lowly carpenters son tried to show them their errors that needed correcting--it inflamed them to hatred.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby One16Unashamed » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:30 am

kjw47 wrote:
One16Unashamed wrote:But why the charge of blasphemy?



Hatred-- they also were saying that Jesus got his power from satan--they were confused. I showed you--they had placed themselves on pedastels above the flock--thinking they were all this and that--and then a lowly carpenters son tried to show them their errors that needed correcting--it inflamed them to hatred.


Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Why did they want to stone Him?
"In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that-and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison-you do not know God." -C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:34 pm

One16Unashamed wrote:
kjw47 wrote:
One16Unashamed wrote:But why the charge of blasphemy?



Hatred-- they also were saying that Jesus got his power from satan--they were confused. I showed you--they had placed themselves on pedastels above the flock--thinking they were all this and that--and then a lowly carpenters son tried to show them their errors that needed correcting--it inflamed them to hatred.


Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Why did they want to stone Him?




Stoning was apart of the ot laws--- If today someone claimed to have lived before Abraham and stoning was the way--they would still stone that one--But Hatred is what motivated the Israelite leaders.--- no matter what the Pharisees said and taught no truth about Jesus--their hatred twisted their thoughts. They wanted any reason to kill him. Especially after Jesus spoke Matt 23 to them.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby One16Unashamed » Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:04 pm

kjw47 wrote:Stoning was apart of the ot laws--- If today someone claimed to have lived before Abraham and stoning was the way--they would still stone that one--But Hatred is what motivated the Israelite leaders.--- no matter what the Pharisees said and taught no truth about Jesus--their hatred twisted their thoughts. They wanted any reason to kill him. Especially after Jesus spoke Matt 23 to them.


That makes no sense and doesn't line up the OT Laws, you legally could not stone anyone for saying they existed before someone else. We would never use capital punishment for false claims even today, it's not reasonable. There has to be a better answer as to why they wanted to stone him. Still the blasphemy charge is what is troubling...so why that charge?
"In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that-and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison-you do not know God." -C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:39 pm

One16Unashamed wrote:
kjw47 wrote:Stoning was apart of the ot laws--- If today someone claimed to have lived before Abraham and stoning was the way--they would still stone that one--But Hatred is what motivated the Israelite leaders.--- no matter what the Pharisees said and taught no truth about Jesus--their hatred twisted their thoughts. They wanted any reason to kill him. Especially after Jesus spoke Matt 23 to them.


That makes no sense and doesn't line up the OT Laws, you legally could not stone anyone for saying they existed before someone else. We would never use capital punishment for false claims even today, it's not reasonable. There has to be a better answer as to why they wanted to stone him. Still the blasphemy charge is what is troubling...so why that charge?



In their hearts filled with hatred--twisted everything about Jesus.
If someone told you--they lived before Abraham---you would think they were nuts.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby One16Unashamed » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:25 pm

kjw47 wrote:
One16Unashamed wrote:
kjw47 wrote:Stoning was apart of the ot laws--- If today someone claimed to have lived before Abraham and stoning was the way--they would still stone that one--But Hatred is what motivated the Israelite leaders.--- no matter what the Pharisees said and taught no truth about Jesus--their hatred twisted their thoughts. They wanted any reason to kill him. Especially after Jesus spoke Matt 23 to them.


That makes no sense and doesn't line up the OT Laws, you legally could not stone anyone for saying they existed before someone else. We would never use capital punishment for false claims even today, it's not reasonable. There has to be a better answer as to why they wanted to stone him. Still the blasphemy charge is what is troubling...so why that charge?



In their hearts filled with hatred--twisted everything about Jesus.
If someone told you--they lived before Abraham---you would think they were nuts.


Nuts..yes.

Grounds for blasphemy? Absolutely not.

So why the charge?
"In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that-and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison-you do not know God." -C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:25 pm

One16Unashamed wrote:
kjw47 wrote:Stoning was apart of the ot laws--- If today someone claimed to have lived before Abraham and stoning was the way--they would still stone that one--But Hatred is what motivated the Israelite leaders.--- no matter what the Pharisees said and taught no truth about Jesus--their hatred twisted their thoughts. They wanted any reason to kill him. Especially after Jesus spoke Matt 23 to them.




In their hearts filled with hatred--twisted everything about Jesus.
If someone told you--they lived before Abraham---you would think they were nuts.


Nuts..yes.

Grounds for blasphemy? Absolutely not.

So why the charge?[/quote]


I already told you why---HATRED.
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