The metaphors for the atonement

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Re: The metaphors for the atonement

Postby kuwano » Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:01 am

I'll summarise our discussion in an attempt to clarify.

I've acknowledged I misunderstood your position - I drew an inference from what you stated which was incorrect. I think that was because your explanation was vague even after requesting clarification - but you're right to point out I shouldn't have drawn that inference.

My issue with you is that: 1) you don't even bother to ask my position but go off on a tirade about magical thinking, Pharisees, repertoires of deceiving and leading people into magic - you're having a discussion with me not some imaginary opponent in your head. 2) I asked you to stop attributing motivations to me since you don't know me. You are still defending doing that - which I find extremely arrogant and disrespectful. You don't like me misrepresenting you (which I acknowledge after you clarified) but you demand the right to continue misrepresenting me and disregard my explanation of my motivation. 3) I've said its inappropriate to talk in the same breath about the grace of God, being made in the image of God and then to denigrate those who equally know the grace of God and are made in the image of God. You dismiss this as being touchy - you reserve the right to insult and mock people who disagree with you and to question their motivations.
4) I don't like your hostility but you refuse to own that you're being hostile - if you a person I barely know shout at me in the street and insult me I will count that as hostility why does being behind a keyboard change anything?

I think it should be possible to have a conversation where we can respectfully engage with views that are different from our own. Try to understand different views without the need to insult or mock them. To forgive those who have made errors in understanding our position without the need to mock, insult and question their integrity. In real life this happens more often but the anonymity of the internet brings out the worst in people.
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Re: The metaphors for the atonement

Postby mitchellmckain » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:17 am

kuwano wrote:My issue with you is that: 1) you don't even bother to ask my position but go off on a tirade about magical thinking, Pharisees, repertoires of deceiving and leading people into magic - you're having a discussion with me not some imaginary opponent in your head.

See that is where you are being touchy. If you are going to do that then don't ask others to explain their viewpoint. Because it is perfectly natural for people to explain their viewpoint by showing why they think the opposing viewpoints are wrong.

kuwano wrote: 2) I asked you to stop attributing motivations to me since you don't know me. You are still defending doing that - which I find extremely arrogant and disrespectful. You don't like me misrepresenting you (which I acknowledge after you clarified) but you demand the right to continue misrepresenting me and disregard my explanation of my motivation.

I did nothing of the sort until you did something strange, so I hunted for an explanation and your response was hostility and accusations instead of making a clarification.

kuwano wrote: 3) I've said its inappropriate to talk in the same breath about the grace of God, being made in the image of God and then to denigrate those who equally know the grace of God and are made in the image of God. You dismiss this as being touchy - you reserve the right to insult and mock people who disagree with you and to question their motivations.

Incorrect. You ask for an explanation and when you don't like the explanation then you project emotions on the person and start making accusations. After misrepresenting someone else, you then raise a stink about suggestions you decide to interpret as misrepresenting you.

kuwano wrote:4) I don't like your hostility but you refuse to own that you're being hostile - if you a person I barely know shout at me in the street and insult me I will count that as hostility why does being behind a keyboard change anything?

The only one feeling hostility here is you apparently. I don't now and never did. I did feel a little frustration and confusion when you misrepresented me but that is all.

kuwano wrote:I think it should be possible to have a conversation where we can respectfully engage with views that are different from our own. Try to understand different views without the need to insult or mock them. To forgive those who have made errors in understanding our position without the need to mock, insult and question their integrity. In real life this happens more often but the anonymity of the internet brings out the worst in people.

The number one requirement for such a conversation is for people to learn not to take so much offense at things which disagree with their own personal viewpoint, especially when they haven't even shared such a viewpoint. They should have a think enough skin, they keep the focus on the topic of discussion instead of diverting into attacks upon the person.

I forgive errors quickly except when other person keeps piling on the accusations themselves, for then the beam in their own eye becomes impossible to ignore.

And no... I will not make my own list like you have. I don't really think that way. I do not know the other person and I do not pretend to. All I know is what they posted and it what they posted that I will respond to and critique.
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