Why be a Christian?

[Rian]

Is there any denomination that you consider to "necessarily" be Christians?

No - and 5 posts back from your post, I said that.
(no one reads my posts *sniff* )

If not, why would you make this statement just about the Roman Catholics?

Well, if anyone bothers to actually look at the post in question, they'll see that it was actually DU that brought up RCs and something "weird" that he thinks they did, and I was responding to that. DU brought up RCs, not me.

Were you criticizing the Catholics because they practice infant baptism (as do the Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Disciples of Christ, Lutherans, and Greek Orthodox, to name a few)?

No.

Do you take any responsibility for the reasonable conclusion that, since you only separated out the Roman Catholics, that DU was at least led to believe you have "big problems with the RC church"?

Again, I didn't "separate out" the RCs - DU did first, and I continued in that same line with another observation about them. I've said several times that those observations apply to other denominations as well.

I have no problem with DU thinking that I have "big problems with the RC church", because that's what I said. I DO, however, have big problems with DU saying that I don't think that Catholics are Christians, because I did NOT say that.

[Rian]

Sigh.

No kidding!

Rian you started your little anti-catholic tirade with THIS statement "oh boy, I can see problems here, because I have big problems with the RC church!"

YOU brought up problems you had with the RC first. I was responding to that. No tirade - just sincere issues, like the issue that YOU brought up.

In this statement you are referring to the ENTIRE RC Church as a SINGLE entity.

Composed of its members.

(btw, what, in your mind, IS the RC as a single entity? The pope?)

You then continued with THIS statement... "I don't consider them necessarily "Christians" as someone who has a working knowledge of English, though I confess - not of Hebrew - I am FORCED to infer that the 'them' refers to something... what? I wonder... Why to the Subject of the earlier sentence... 'The RC Church'...

Yes, that entity composed of lots of members, like the Methodist church, the Mormon church, etc.

It (the 'them' you used) does NOT refer to the members of the RC Church... WHY? because they have NOT been mentioned as a 'subject' yet and therefore 'them' cannot refer to them.

So what does it refer to, in YOUR mind - the building?

"Look at that lovely RC church, Harriet! And that beautiful little Methodist church!"
"Eh, Frank, I don't know - I have big problems with the RC church - I think the landscape is appalling!"

I doubt if it's the building, in your mind, so what is it? The leadership? The members that make up the RC church?

I think that by the context surrounding the comment, it's clear that I do NOT mean the building - I mean the members (which is the "religious" definition of church, anyway).

Sorry, I think that there is absolutely no problem with what I said - the RC church is composed of its members, and it's fine to refer to them as the RC church. If you think differently, fine. I doubt if anyone else had problems with what I said, but you manufacture problems sometimes, it seems.

Which is just plain factually incorrect - at the age of discretion (it varies from sect to sect) catholics typically get Confirmed. During which time they 'make a choice' as you put it.

Yes, and as Sue and others have noted, that choice is not always sincere - it can be just to make your family happy, to fit into your society, and many other reasons.

Are there exceptions? Yes.

Ah, I see that we agree after all!!!!

But just as perhaps a child in a christian household, your household perhaps, might not yet have made the choice... they are STILL considered christians. Or did you NOT consider your children NOT christians before they stated it verbally.

I don't consider people Christians until they've made that choice, and that includes my children.

Of course... if all of this is yet another misunderstanding... then you carry the weight of the responsibility because I draw these conclusions from what you post.

Riiiight. Sorry, I don't buy that. It seems to me that over and over, you TRY to grab onto the thing closest to a problem and MAKE it into a problem. I never said that Catholics aren't Christians. You say that I did, and can't provide a quote to prove your point, so you try to throw dust and wave your hands. Sorry, ain't buyin' it. If you can provide a quote where I said that Catholics weren't Christians, then your point would be proven. You can't, so just give it up.

When you state oh boy, I can see problems here, because I have big problems with the RC church!" Then you set the stage for all types of inferences into what you say next.

I think inferences are a bad idea, don't you? If you're not sure what I think, how about asking me? And I'll give you that same courtesy.

[whoosanightowl]

DU wrote:

Which is just plain factually incorrect - at the age of discretion (it varies from sect to sect) catholics typically get Confirmed. During which time they 'make a choice' as you put it.

Rian wrote:

Yes, and as Sue and others have noted, that choice is not always sincere - it can be just to make your family happy, to fit into your society, and many other reasons.

Rian, Just to clarify, I believe there is a lot of social/family pressure for children to make the decision to accept whatever the particular brand of Christianity they are being indoctrinated into calls for; "getting saved by asking Jesus into their heart" or "becoming a member of the body of Christ (aka the Church) by making their Confirmation".
It is believed that Infant baptism cleanses the child from original sin in case of premature death and brings them into the family of God via the faith of it's parents, godparents and Christian community. Confirmation is a commitment made by people who are considered old enough to decide for themselves, who willingly choose (?) to build on the foundation of their baptism and continue forth in the Catholic/Christian worldview tradition through their own faith.
The church I went to after leaving the Catholic church is called Evangelical Friends (an offshoot of the Society of Friends or Quakers), and this particular fundamentalist denomination does not believe in Baptism. Most of it's lifelong members have never been baptized and several actually consider it wrong to do so. The same thing with Communion, which our pastor offers only twice a year for those who wish to participate (since many have come from other denominations and miss it). He has also offered on occasion to baptize in a pond anyone who felt the need or desire, but it is never encouraged.

[stickmangrit]

rian,

you try to shift blame back to DU by saying he brought up the RCC, but this still does not change the fact that upon their mention, you felt the need to say that they're not all "necessarily" christians, and then proceeded with a factually incorrect argument to back that statement. then you proceed to hide behind qualifiers. look, i've had enough dealings as an alabama catholic to see through that tripe. the RCC comes up and you just can't wait to tell us how you have such problems with them, and how "some if not many" are forced in without the ability to truly rationalize and observe. how they are not "necessarily" christians. and despite the fact that you go on to say that this is true of all religions, you still feel the need to specifically point it out in regards to the RCC. you don't say "just because you're part of a denominational church doesn't automatically make you a christian," or "just like any other 'christian' group, being catholic doesn't necessarily make you christian." no, you start implying catholic != christian two sentences into your post, with the first being a nondescript slam on the church itself. and i've heard your post before. enough, in fact, to know that qualifiers only go there because you don't want to look like a complete jerk. once you hear the baptist preacher teaching your vacation bible camp telling your mother how he was wrong about catholics after meeting your family, telling us about the teacher in seminary that explained to him that catholics were "idol worshiping heretics," you start to understand just how deep the anti-papist bigotry goes here in the south. and you never did answer me as to what religion you prescribe to. you merely gave me "Christian" which is about as helpful as telling me you're a mammal.

but you see, this is what i love about evangelicals, the whole "christian" myth. you ask a catholic what their religion of choice is, they'll say catholicism, you ask a mormon, they say mormon, you ask a baptist, pentacostal, or other evangelical, and they're "Christian." and why is this you ask? oh i've heard every argument known to man(most of them deriding other groups for not referring to themselves as christian), but the truth is that it creates a false majority. you only really see this in america, where an evangelical, a methodist, and a pentacostal can ignore the fact that they believe the others are wrong about some damnation worthy offense and stand together as "christians" against the agents of satan and those idol worshiping papists. it creates an illusion of unity, which is precisely why the catholics won't use it. the protestant religions broke off from the catholic church, forming several smaller denominations. they realize that there are serious divergences in dogma between themselves and these other branches of christianity, and as such refer to themselves very simply and clearly as catholics. and why shouldn't they? they are indeed the largest and oldest christian denomination in the world, and second only to Islam as the largest single unified religion. the mormons are probably the most powerful branch of chrstianity in america, predominantly because they're definitely the best funded. they too, have no reason not to proudly state their mormonism. so what makes evangelicals so different that they not only utilize such a vague nomenclature, but actively deride anyone who doesn't as putting their denomination before Christ?

it's because they are so small, and so splintered that the only way they can conceivably matter is to ignore their massive discrepancies in dogma and create an artificial "True Christian(TM)" that no-one can collectively define, but everyone knows that they're one, and they can sure as hell point out someone who's not. i can drive from my house to downtown Phenix City, down Summerville Rd and come across six separate churches in a two mile stretch, three baptist, one catholic, one pentecostal, and one church of christ. now consider that the Pentecostal is run out of a vaguely unstable looking house on the side of the road, the RCC is fairly small, the only other ones in the area being across the river in columbus, and the church of christ is fairly unassuming as well. none are heavily invested in, none have massive parking lots, and the catholic church damn near blends into the businesses that neighbor it. compare this to three large baptist churches, all capable of seating hundreds, all with more than ample parking, and all with nice clean light-up signs in front. now, being a resident and having spent my first seven years in this town, i know damn good and well that there are not enough people living on Summerville or in the surrounding areas to necessitate three f**king baptist churches, let alone the hundred and twenty five that google maps tells me is within a five mile radius of town, totally excluding columbus. not only do you have these divisions amongst large scale christianity, you also have OVER A HUNDRED CHURCHES OF THE SAME DENOMINATION IN A TOWN OF 30,000. this is not due to population, this is due to "we don't like the pastor so we're forming a new church," or "there's a new pastor starting a church half a mile closer to us, let's try that one." there is NO uniformity whatsoever, everybody goes and does their own thing, and most of them hate each other, but they're all christians, and they'll forget their differences in a heartbeat if they spot a queer, a non-evangelical christian, a jew, a muslim, or(god forbid) an atheist. and people wonder why i'm an anti-theist.

screw it, i'm gonna keep ranting. what the fuck is up with these damned mega-churches? these college-campus sized monstrosities designed to eliminate any need to extensively interact with the outside world? didn't Martin Luther have something to say about oversized places of worship? isn't the spending of the "money of the poor believers" on pretty buildings rather than giving it to those in need contrary to the very foundation of the Protestant reformation? wasn't that one of the reasons he decided to break off in the first place?

oh, i'm sorry, i expected consistency, logic, and lack of hypocrisy from the american evangelical movement. my bad, sorry to waste ya'lls time.

[wondersforoyarsa]

oh, i'm sorry, i expected consistency, logic, and lack of hypocrisy from the american evangelical movement. my bad, sorry to waste ya'lls time.

Awwww...sounds like somebody needs a hug!

[stickmangrit]

and didn't Jesus Christ spend the overwhelming majority of his adult life in the company of whores, lepers, and tax collectors, the "scum" of ancient Israel, and do so without being a judgmental prick? wasn't the only person he allowed to accompany him straight to heaven was a thief on the next cross over? aren't christians supposed to live by WWJD, or does that vanish whenever it becomes inconvenient?

[Rian]

Yes, Jesus spent time with all sorts of people, and loved them all - and also mentioned things that they were doing wrong, like when he told the whore (to use your example) that she should stop doing what she was doing, or the tax collectors to stop cheating people - you know, "judgmental" things like that.

I don't recall Jesus telling lepers to stop their leprous ways, though ...

[stickmangrit]

Yes, Jesus spent time with all sorts of people, and loved them all - and also mentioned things that they were doing wrong, like when he told the whore (to use your example) that she should stop doing what she was doing, or the tax collectors to stop cheating people - you know, "judgmental" things like that.

I don't recall Jesus telling lepers to stop their leprous ways, though ...

wow, way to ignore the point. and you still haven't answered me as to what denomination you belong to, but straight answers aren't to be expected from you, are they?

[wondersforoyarsa]

straight answers aren't to be expected from you, are they?

So.... How about that hug?

[Rian]

Yes, Jesus spent time with all sorts of people, and loved them all - and also mentioned things that they were doing wrong, like when he told the whore (to use your example) that she should stop doing what she was doing, or the tax collectors to stop cheating people - you know, "judgmental" things like that.

I don't recall Jesus telling lepers to stop their leprous ways, though ...

wow, way to ignore the point. and you still haven't answered me as to what denomination you belong to, but straight answers aren't to be expected from you, are they?

I did answer you here, but you usually don't read my posts, I guess - that explains why you make up what I say a lot!

And how did I avoid the point? I thought your point was that Jesus was with "sinners" and wasn't judgemental, and I showed how you were wrong. So what point did I "ignore"?

And YOU haven't answered ME about what your username means.

[JustJim]

Oh, as far as worl... um, beliefs about the state of the world, I guess to pick the simplest bin, I'm a Christian. I think I'd be called an evangelical Christian, but I disagree with a lot of those people's opinions, and am not even sure what that means exactly and don't even worry about it much at all. Maybe a think-for-myself Christian, because I don't automatically buy into what I hear. I'm VERY much into people thinking for themselves.

I don't see any "denomination" mentioned there, Rian. I don't think "Christian" is a denomination. Nor is "evangelical Christian". Nor is "a think-for-myself Christian". I think stickmangrit (stickman + grit) is looking for something we all know and recognize as "denominations" of Christianity, particularly Protestantism. You know, denominations like Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Methodist, Assembly of God, Church of God, Church of Christ, Church of the Nazarene, Grace Brethren, Reformed, Unity, etc., etc., etc. Or if it's easier, what is the denomination of the church you attend every Sunday? What's on their marquis out front? I think that's what stick wants to see, but I could be wrong.

Jim

[NH Baritone]

Yes, Jesus spent time with all sorts of people, and loved them all - and also mentioned things that they were doing wrong, like when he told the whore (to use your example) that she should stop doing what she was doing, or the tax collectors to stop cheating people - you know, "judgmental" things like that.

I don't recall Jesus telling lepers to stop their leprous ways, though ...

wow, way to ignore the point. and you still haven't answered me as to what denomination you belong to, but straight answers aren't to be expected from you, are they?

I did answer you here, but you usually don't read my posts, I guess - that explains why you make up what I say a lot!

And how did I avoid the point? I thought your point was that Jesus was with "sinners" and wasn't judgemental, and I showed how you were wrong. So what point did I "ignore"?

And YOU haven't answered ME about what your username means.

Since I seem to be the dictionary guru here:

DENOMINATION: "A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."(From the American Heritage Dictionary.)

Kindly answer Stick's reasonable question or refuse to answer. So far you've avoided the answer by pretending your theological prattle was sufficient. It wasn't. And neither was your art history course.

[stickmangrit]

I did answer you here, but you usually don't read my posts, I guess - that explains why you make up what I say a lot!

and my response to your answer was:"you merely gave me "Christian" which is about as helpful as telling me you're a mammal." this was followed by multiple paragraphs of examining the concept of denomination and the lack of uniformity in christianity.

And how did I avoid the point? I thought your point was that Jesus was with "sinners" and wasn't judgemental, and I showed how you were wrong. So what point did I "ignore"?

that the only point you argued was a tangential offshoot criticizing the isolationist nature of megachurches, and how jesus did not convene in nice huge clean buildings with the faithful and socially accepted, but went out into the world and dealt with those considered lowest on the totem pole, something american evangelicals tend to gloss over and ignore. this played into the "lack of uniformity" discussion. all of this was ignored, and all of the response was placed on something completely irrelevant to the point of the posts, just like when you ripped my words out of context to turn them into an invalid support of you're argument in the gay marriage discussion.

And YOU haven't answered ME about what your username means.

at the risk of sounding juvenile, i asked first, and it's only polite that you should fully answer my question before demanding the same from me. do unto others dearie.

[ScottBarger]

I don't see any "denomination" mentioned there, Rian. I don't think "Christian" is a denomination. Nor is "evangelical Christian". Nor is "a think-for-myself Christian". I think stickmangrit (stickman + grit) is looking for something we all know and recognize as "denominations" of Christianity, particularly Protestantism. You know, denominations like Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Methodist, Assembly of God, Church of God, Church of Christ, Church of the Nazarene, Grace Brethren, Reformed, Unity, etc., etc., etc. Or if it's easier, what is the denomination of the church you attend every Sunday? What's on their marquis out front? I think that's what stick wants to see, but I could be wrong.

Jim

Yay! Grace Brethren made Jim's list. Woo hoo!

[whoosanightowl]

Yay! Grace Brethren made Jim's list. Woo hoo!

?? What the hell is Grace Brethren??