Ep. 81: The Switch

[humanguy]

if you give of yourself and work to create things you will find a world full of good things, and if you are kind and helpful to others the world will be a warm and comforting place.

You've just descibed me, Mitch. And I'm an atheist! Now how does that work?

Its not about Christain or atheist. It is about attitude.

Interesting. So perhaps some people need Christianity in order to achieve that kind of attitude, while others don't?

But the truth is that it wasn't until I really gave up on all the big questions about God and the meaning of life and all that that I began to truly love life and to celebrate humanity for all that is good and righteous and beautiful about it, that the world did become that warm and comforting place filled with good things, filled with beauty, joy and inspiration.

Many ways to reach the same goal, perhaps?

[Redpower]

Mitch: Be gone troll... I already asked if you'd be on the show with me so I could treat your chronic shit-mouth in real time man to man... But you won't AS I PREDICTED BEFORE I EVEN ASKED YOU.

You are a bad troll and a coward. Kill yourself so you can reach heaven or hell or wherever the fuck your mommy said you were going when you die.

[Rian]

Put him on ignore, then, Redpower - please don't trash up the board with that kind of post.

I don't talk about it either, unless the subject comes up, as it did here, but since we're talking about it, I'd love to hear what areas you're interested in helping with - it's always interesting to hear ways that others help out.

Homelessness and mental health care, two issues quite close to me. I'm no hero or anything, though.

Those two are often related ... my sister-in-law runs a homeless shelter for the marginally mentally ill (I forget the exact term). I tend to give food, instead of money, to the people on the street holding signs - what are your thoughts on that?

[humanguy]

Mitch: Be gone troll... I already asked if you'd be on the show with me so I could treat your chronic shit-mouth in real time man to man... But you won't AS I PREDICTED BEFORE I EVEN ASKED YOU.

You are a bad troll and a coward. Kill yourself so you can reach heaven or hell or wherever the fuck your mommy said you were going when you die.

Alright, Redpower, you've now shown us what an ass you are. What else have you got?

[humanguy]

I tend to give food, instead of money, to the people on the street holding signs - what are your thoughts on that?

Well, now you're asking. And I'm not telling. All I care to say is that there are too many people living on the streets and it's not just wrong, it's the worst kind of disgrace and it reflects very badly on this country. What little I do amounts to nothing.

[mitchellmckain]

Put him on ignore, then, Redpower - please don't trash up the board with that kind of post.

Very good example Rian, of what Redpower could have said to me in order to put ME in my place far more effectively.

Therefore I apologize to you and everyone else for my unpleasant response to Redpower.

This kind of condescending attitude and especially this projection of emotion technique are things that I find particularly infuriating. I have indeed heard this kind of thing in abundance from Christians, and maybe a lot of Christians would not find it so difficult to put up with as I do. The fact is that I wasn't raised Christian but only came to see some value in Christianity in spite of this sort of attitude by many Christians, but maybe that is because I am already too familiar with this condescending attitude from the liberal non-theist intellectual environment in which I was raised.

However I have already expressed this once and now twice and I can see how any more of this could make me quite a bore (if it hasn't already) so perhaps I should ignore this sort of thing by Redpower and just keep it to myself.

My apologies again.

[mitchellmckain]

mitchellmckain: "if you give of yourself and work to create things you will find a world full of good things, and if you are kind and helpful to others the world will be a warm and comforting place."

You've just descibed me, Mitch. And I'm an atheist! Now how does that work?

Its not about Christain or atheist. It is about attitude.

Interesting. So perhaps some people need Christianity in order to achieve that kind of attitude, while others don't?

But the truth is that it wasn't until I really gave up on all the big questions about God and the meaning of life and all that that I began to truly love life and to celebrate humanity for all that is good and righteous and beautiful about it, that the world did become that warm and comforting place filled with good things, filled with beauty, joy and inspiration.

Many ways to reach the same goal, perhaps?

Well reaching the same goal may be going a little too far, but going forward and living life more fully, yes definitely. This I think this is what Scott Peck discovered in his practice, that breakthroughs were very often accompanied either by the abandonment of religion or the conversion to religion. So I think that you are absolutely right and that Pecks observations confirms it 100% that dispensing with an unhealthy religious way of thinking can for a great many people be the road to a more meaningful life and even greater mental health. Perhaps, most of the time, it is the very process of finding our own answers to such things that is what is important rather than what particular answers it is that we find.

[Redpower]

Mitch: Be gone troll... I already asked if you'd be on the show with me so I could treat your chronic shit-mouth in real time man to man... But you won't AS I PREDICTED BEFORE I EVEN ASKED YOU.

You are a bad troll and a coward. Kill yourself so you can reach heaven or hell or wherever the fuck your mommy said you were going when you die.

Alright, Redpower, you've now shown us what an ass you are. What else have you got?

Meh, I guess you haven't read anything I've posted... Big surprise.

[ScottBarger]

Settle down, everyone. Don't make me stop the car and come back there.

[NH Baritone]

Settle down, everyone. Don't make me stop the car and come back there.

That's rather condescending, don't you think?

[ScottBarger]

Yes, yes it was. I was joking. I thought it would be obvious.

[NH Baritone]

Yes, yes it was. I was joking. I thought it would be obvious.

I hate to put it this way, but as a clergyman, you may need to make your jokes more overt.

There are too many pastors who never relinquish the role, and thereby shoehorn everyone they meet into the unrequested role of parishioner. You yourself have demonstrated on both the podcast and the forum that you have trouble seeing the world through layman's eyes. Perhaps you could throw a smiley in when you don't expect to be taken seriously.

Not that I don't have sympathy for you and all pastors. My dad was a minister, and I was on church staff when I was younger. I watched as parishioners nervously cleaned up their act when we were around, and simultaneously I felt I had to rein in my own sense of humor. It seems this neurosis is epidemic. And it probably takes its larger toll on the pastors, because they become more emotionally isolated from the people they attend church with.

[Redpower]

There has been 81 podcasts done on a variety of topics and none of the questions or objections that Emery raises are ever answered or reconciled. At most the co-host admits that "it's a tough question and I struggle with it" but that's where it ends...

I am getting increasingly discouraged and I'm starting to think more and more that the debate isn't worth having. It comes down to clumsy intellectual trickery or semantics games from the Christian side, always. Scott has begun trying to re-define the term Christian to have little to do with the text of the bible as a whole. Why Christians think it's okay to pick and choose what parts of the bible they deem worthy of their cause is beyond me...

Religious belief for the most part is geographic, just that fact alone should AT LEAST cause some skeptic analysis of what the religion in question has to offer, but it rarely does. The Christian starts with the conclusion that Jesus was God/God's son and died on the cross for my sins... This is not how an adult conducts an investigation, I'm sorry... You don't start with the narrative already in place and work to trick your way into actually believing it... It's just so lame...

There is NO proof. You have nothing. We are dealing with fact v fiction here and this debate has more than run its course. I understand that you've dedicated your lives to something that turned out to be a farce/scam but you can cut your losses... It's time to grow up and stop believing in the Tooth Fairy. No one has changed their mind after 81 hours of discussion on the podcast and countless more hours on the forums. The truth is obvious and yet no Christian EVER changes their mind.

What is the point of this? Unless someone can articulate a reason to have the discussion/debate anymore I think I'd equate debating Christians with beating my head against a brick wall. Scott, there is no way you believe this crack pot theory for our existence/purpose... I'm sorry, Scott, but you aren't fooling me.

[NH Baritone]

There has been 81 podcasts done on a variety of topics and none of the questions or objections that Emery raises are ever answered or reconciled. At most the co-host admits that "it's a tough question and I struggle with it" but that's where it ends...

I am getting increasingly discouraged and I'm starting to think more and more that the debate isn't worth having. It comes down to clumsy intellectual trickery or semantics games from the Christian side, always. Scott has begun trying to re-define the term Christian to have little to do with the text of the bible as a whole. Why Christians think it's okay to pick and choose what parts of the bible they deem worthy of their cause is beyond me...

Religious belief for the most part is geographic, just that fact alone should AT LEAST cause some skeptic analysis of what the religion in question has to offer, but it rarely does. The Christian starts with the conclusion that Jesus was God/God's son and died on the cross for my sins... This is not how an adult conducts an investigation, I'm sorry... You don't start with the narrative already in place and work to trick your way into actually believing it... It's just so lame...

There is NO proof. You have nothing. We are dealing with fact v fiction here and this debate has more than run its course. I understand that you've dedicated your lives to something that turned out to be a farce/scam but you can cut your losses... It's time to grow up and stop believing in the Tooth Fairy. No one has changed their mind after 81 hours of discussion on the podcast and countless more hours on the forums. The truth is obvious and yet no Christian EVER changes their mind.

What is the point of this? Unless someone can articulate a reason to have the discussion/debate anymore I think I'd equate debating Christians with beating my head against a brick wall. Scott, there is no way you believe this crack pot theory for our existence/purpose... I'm sorry, Scott, but you aren't fooling me.

Red,

I have genuine sympathy for this point of view, but let's own our part of the frustration:

• We don't have to listen to it. Yet some part of our psyche feels drawn to correcting credulous thinking.
  
  That, in itself, may warrant an investigation. Why would we spend our precious moments interacting with those whose sense of meaning is drawn from a mythology born in a largely illiterate bronze-age desert culture? Why here, where the outcomes are so meager, instead of among the more aggressive religiosi whose potential harm is more apparent?
  
  
• Every person hold irrational beliefs.
  
  Personally, I believe my cat and dog, to the best of their ability, love me. Nay, adore me. In truth, it's probably more likely that they are simply accustomed to me, but I don't focus on that.
  
  Now granted, such belief impacts the rest of the world minimally, but it does illustrate how easy it is for humans to cling to irrational beliefs that ease the fear and pain of existence.
  
  
• Whenever you're overwhelmed by noxious fumes, it seems a bit insane to avoid stepping outside to fill your lungs with fresh air.
  
  Continuing to engage with Christophiles when you've begun to seethe inside seems similarly self-destructive. Most folks consider cultivating peace of mind holds more benefits than cultivating rage.
  
  
• We have limited influence, and there are times when we consider those limits the fault of others. Consider that perhaps this is just one of the facts of life. None of us can bring about all the things we wish. The most we can do is to move the stone a couple of millimeters. If you can celebrate that tiny achievement, then perhaps you won't feel so discouraged when the culture of woo outwits you.

[ScottBarger]

There has been 81 podcasts done on a variety of topics and none of the questions or objections that Emery raises are ever answered or reconciled. At most the co-host admits that "it's a tough question and I struggle with it" but that's where it ends...

I am getting increasingly discouraged and I'm starting to think more and more that the debate isn't worth having. It comes down to clumsy intellectual trickery or semantics games from the Christian side, always. Scott has begun trying to re-define the term Christian to have little to do with the text of the bible as a whole. Why Christians think it's okay to pick and choose what parts of the bible they deem worthy of their cause is beyond me...

Religious belief for the most part is geographic, just that fact alone should AT LEAST cause some skeptic analysis of what the religion in question has to offer, but it rarely does. The Christian starts with the conclusion that Jesus was God/God's son and died on the cross for my sins... This is not how an adult conducts an investigation, I'm sorry... You don't start with the narrative already in place and work to trick your way into actually believing it... It's just so lame...

There is NO proof. You have nothing. We are dealing with fact v fiction here and this debate has more than run its course. I understand that you've dedicated your lives to something that turned out to be a farce/scam but you can cut your losses... It's time to grow up and stop believing in the Tooth Fairy. No one has changed their mind after 81 hours of discussion on the podcast and countless more hours on the forums. The truth is obvious and yet no Christian EVER changes their mind.

What is the point of this? Unless someone can articulate a reason to have the discussion/debate anymore I think I'd equate debating Christians with beating my head against a brick wall. Scott, there is no way you believe this crack pot theory for our existence/purpose... I'm sorry, Scott, but you aren't fooling me.

I will answer these questions in a different thread, if it's ok with you. My answers will probably push this thread off target more than it already is.