Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Discuss the latest podcast here.

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby spongebob » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:16 pm

From previous debates with Tony, the message I've gotten from him is that in an atheistic worldview, where god-given purpose and meaning doesn't exist, the only reasonable approach to life is to be the most selfish, most aggressive one can be and to hoard everything one can to make the absolute most of this brief existence we have by simply ignoring any and all social conventions and doing only what brings us pleasure, regardless of what it does to others. At least that is my interpretation of things he has said over time. Of course anyone with any lick of sense can see right through this as a strawman with no foundation in reality. People choose what is important to them in life and there is absolutely no reason that atheists must choose such preposterous things as he suggests because not everyone is cut out to be a mongrel and most of us would fail miserably at it and thus gain no pleasure at all. Not to mention that society would never permit such behavior on a large scale as this would bring about draconian laws that would circumvent any such notions. Anyone with an IQ over 80 can see these things.

If I were playing the game on Tony's level I would argue that any Christian should be out there forcing all others to comply with Christianity or die. And any devout Christian should also find a convenient way to die as young as possible to join with god. Why would any Christian (like him) want to continue on this god forsaken world any longer than necessary?

Idiotic rhetoric deserves idiotic responses.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

:spongeb:
User avatar
spongebob
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 5783
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:59 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL
Affiliation: Humanist - Bright

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Emery » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:23 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:Finally, it's quite a disappointment to me that Emery allowed Tony this final word. Frankly, I was hoping Norton might have been able to say a few words -- at least that would have ended the podcast with a voice different than that of Tony, who really is mired in his bigotry of atheists and atheism. But, it's not my show, and it is what it is.


Norton was actually the last guest. Perhaps the normal Stryper exit music threw you off: he comes on just after that.
They are ill discoverers that think there is no land, when they can see nothing but sea. - Sir Francis Bacon
User avatar
Emery
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 1579
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:00 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Affiliation: Atheist

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Keep The Reason » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:44 pm

Emery wrote:
Keep The Reason wrote:Finally, it's quite a disappointment to me that Emery allowed Tony this final word. Frankly, I was hoping Norton might have been able to say a few words -- at least that would have ended the podcast with a voice different than that of Tony, who really is mired in his bigotry of atheists and atheism. But, it's not my show, and it is what it is.


Norton was actually the last guest. Perhaps the normal Stryper exit music threw you off: he comes on just after that.



Yup, it did. I thought it was over.
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
User avatar
Keep The Reason
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 10428
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:50 pm
Affiliation: Reasonist

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Particles » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:21 pm

Emery, kudos for lasting as long as you did. Do you have anybody specific in mind as a new host?
Particles
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:47 pm
Location: USA
Affiliation: Gnostic atheist

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby crazylegsmurphy » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:04 am

This sucks....

Personally, I would rather have one episode a year with Emery and Scott, than one a week with someone else.

I don't have much more to add than that, other than I want to extend my deepest thanks to Emery for this entire thing. I'm not sure he is entirely aware of the impact he has had.
www.theplaceboeffect.ca - free science / skeptic based webcomic.
User avatar
crazylegsmurphy
veteran
veteran
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:28 am
Affiliation: Church of Chewbacca

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby joekohr » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:53 am

Just want to say thanks, Emery, for the time and effort you've put in here. And, thanks to all the other guests that made this podcast what it was. I came here a Christian and left an atheist. It truly has been an interesting experience. Thanks, also, to everyone that interacted with me on the forums. At times I felt they were the only ones who seemed to get where I was coming from. I'll be interested to see how this community evolves. It's been great being apart of it. I wish the best for every one. Thanks, guys!
User avatar
joekohr
recruit
recruit
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:12 pm
Location: New Mexico
Affiliation: Atheist

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby mikedsjr » Thu May 01, 2014 10:12 am

Enjoyed your podcasts through the years. I'll continue listening as they come. But I'm not sure how much i'll contribute to the forum anymore, unless what I consider real Christians show up. Except for your Christian Host Glen, and Tony so long as he isn't talking probabilities, I never found your hosts to be all that Christian in Theology. And the Christian Forumers, outside of those like One16, tend to bleed anti-Sola-ism or anti-Scripture. And I'm just too busy to sink into the pool of filth called liberal Christianity anymore.

Truly enjoyed your podcasts. I'll try to remember to look at your blog.
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens
Eccl 3:1
User avatar
mikedsjr
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 1866
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:37 pm

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby mitchellmckain » Thu May 01, 2014 10:38 am

mikedsjr wrote:Enjoyed your podcasts through the years. I'll continue listening as they come. But I'm not sure how much i'll contribute to the forum anymore, unless what I consider real Christians show up. Except for your Christian Host Glen, and Tony so long as he isn't talking probabilities, I never found your hosts to be all that Christian in Theology. And the Christian Forumers, outside of those like One16, tend to bleed anti-Sola-ism or anti-Scripture. And I'm just too busy to sink into the pool of filth called liberal Christianity anymore.

Truly enjoyed your podcasts. I'll try to remember to look at your blog.

When a person covered in muck and slime enters clean water they can see the clouds filth all around them. Some people are only comfortable when they are in equilibrium with their environment surrounded by those like them so that don't have to see their own failings as anything but normal. :-D
Last edited by mitchellmckain on Fri May 02, 2014 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Out of Skull for the Stars My first book is now available on Amazon.com
User avatar
mitchellmckain
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 10316
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:32 am
Location: Salt Lake City
Affiliation: Christian

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby mitchellmckain » Fri May 02, 2014 2:28 am

Emery asked a set of questions of his four Christian guests, even though he did not ask all of the questions to every one of them. Here are their responses as best I could get the gist of along with my own answer to the same questions.

1) What is the one thing that keeps you Christian?
Scott: Emery already knows that Scott's answer will be that it is "all about Jesus."
Joey: Jesus is unavoidable.
Tony: It is an experience of God that shows him that the core of God is pure love.
mitchellmckain: My answer is two parts
A) I think it is really not just one question but many and most importantly: Spiritual existence, God, Christianity. My reasons for all of these are distinct and separate so the failing of the last does not mean that the others fall as well.
B) So specifically why Christianity? It is this idea of a God who set power and knowledge aside to put Himself completely in our shoes as a human infant Himself, demonstrating quite clearly that He chooses love and freedom over power and control.
Note: Tony's answer to this one gave me a very different view of Tony than I have seen before. I was glad to see it.

1a) Could Jesus just be using the mythology of his time to communicate a moral social reform teaching?
Scott: No. Not without discarding much of the Bible.
mitchellmckain: ditto (Scott). In John 6 Jesus utterly rejects the social reform understand of His teaching to make it clear that without a spiritual understanding His message is just nonsense. Moral teachings were a rather small part of what Jesus taught. Jesus taught much more about God, eternal life and the dangers of human religion.

1b) If you can show that all the teachings of Jesus are elsewhere then what is left of Jesus?
Joey: It's not His teachings but His historical influence that makes Him unavoidable.
mitchellmckain: It's not about His teaching but about who He is. If it's just his teaching then you could be a member of many religions that not only teach the same things but many of which also value Jesus for those teachings. That isn't Christianity. Christianity apart from the other religions is not about the moral teachings but about WHO HE IS! He is God the creator of the universe, who caring nothing about being God, gave Himself up to the laws of the universe, including torment and murder at our hands in order to make possible a life giving relationship with Him.

2) What is a last lesson to take away?
Scott: There are apologists, evangelists and fundies on both sides so these are not what atheism or Christianity is all about. Canned rhetoric accomplishes nothing. You need to engage the best version of the opposition and really listen.
Joey: Keep asking questions.
Tony: The Chrisitan worldview is not stupid or irrational
Norton: From such discussions you can become more sympathetic and ok with gray areas and unanswered questions.
Emery: Through our discussion we can clarify our thinking and gain some empathy for those who think differently.
mitchellmckain: Neither atheism nor Christianity are inherently irrational, unreasonable or immoral, however much some versions of them as expressed by particular people may be. Anyway, some things are far more important than any of the central ideas and teachings of Christianity or atheism. These are the principles of a free society in support of religious freedom and tolerance. We need to embrace the diversity of human thought as something beautiful, valuable and even essential for the survival of human civilization.

3) why is there only the chance for eternal life in the short period of our lives?
Joey: I embrace Reformed theology so there is no timeline. This rejects the idea that this is a test which you pass or fail.
mitchellmckain: I do not embrace Reformed theology but I don't think it life is a test either, but there are some inescapable realities. Life is important because life is not exclusively ruled by our choices and desires but by also by laws and forces outside ourselves that restrain and impact us so that we can turn in our tracks and choose something different and make connections with people that we haven't made before. But the spirit is eternal because it is not subject to external laws and forces but only by its own nature from the choices we have made and so after death it becomes very difficult to change course. So even though I reject the Gnostic legalist idea that you have to believe before you die or you are damned, that doesn't mean that I believe there is no urgency in our life regarding our eternal fate.

3a) Can we agree to disagree without feeling the other side needs to be punished?
Emery: That we disagree is the end of it. But for Christians the unbeliever is punished with an eternity of hell.
Norton: Doesn't know. Maybe God is going to punish some things but he sees a lot in Emery that God will surely reward.
mitchellmckain: That we disagree is the end of it, because I am not a Gnostic legalist believing that we are saved by believing the right things. I believe in Christianity because I think it is correct, NOT because I think believing it earns me a damn thing. Emery's attempt to say that atheism is different and special is a failure. Not all Christians are Gnostic legalists and not all atheists are like Emery. For many atheists, religion is a disease that needs to be cured by treatment, re-education or even removal (separation from children) to prevent them from infecting children with their disease -- so in their case they cannot truthfully say that is the disagreement is the end of it any more than the sort of Christians Emery is talking about.
Last edited by mitchellmckain on Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
Out of Skull for the Stars My first book is now available on Amazon.com
User avatar
mitchellmckain
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 10316
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:32 am
Location: Salt Lake City
Affiliation: Christian

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby tonyenglish7 » Sat May 03, 2014 3:05 pm

Dr Mundo wrote:I really enjoyed listening to you emery, I always looked forward to new podcast episodes.

Tony, I can't believe you said what you said, I feel like you should know better. Perhaps it is just a fundamental misunderstanding of any position out side of your own, rather than something malicious, or at least I hope so.


Dr. Mundo, Sorry that my opinion is offensive to you. What exactly did I say that makes you think I am malicious? If I was promoting Atheism would I be offensive as well?
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16
User avatar
tonyenglish7
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 10:13 pm
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA
Affiliation: Evangelical

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby tonyenglish7 » Sat May 03, 2014 3:11 pm

spongebob wrote:From previous debates with Tony, the message I've gotten from him is that in an atheistic worldview, where god-given purpose and meaning doesn't exist, the only reasonable approach to life is to be the most selfish, most aggressive one can be and to hoard everything one can to make the absolute most of this brief existence we have by simply ignoring any and all social conventions and doing only what brings us pleasure, regardless of what it does to others. At least that is my interpretation of things he has said over time. Of course anyone with any lick of sense can see right through this as a strawman with no foundation in reality. People choose what is important to them in life and there is absolutely no reason that atheists must choose such preposterous things as he suggests because not everyone is cut out to be a mongrel and most of us would fail miserably at it and thus gain no pleasure at all. Not to mention that society would never permit such behavior on a large scale as this would bring about draconian laws that would circumvent any such notions. Anyone with an IQ over 80 can see these things.

If I were playing the game on Tony's level I would argue that any Christian should be out there forcing all others to comply with Christianity or die. And any devout Christian should also find a convenient way to die as young as possible to join with god. Why would any Christian (like him) want to continue on this god forsaken world any longer than necessary?

Idiotic rhetoric deserves idiotic responses.

Sponge,

How is what I said a strawman? My point is, that you cannot live consistently under atheism, you must choose to live the illusion that personhood exists, that morals are real, that live has value and the human race should survive. Yet all of these things are just random programs that arose by chance in the proteins of the DNA. They are illusions and so you cannot live under that objective reality because if you did, you would give up all the illusions and tricks of the dna. I know that Atheists are as moral as any other human group and this is because they do not live under the ramifications of their view but borrow from the illusion that life has meaning, that minds exist, that morals are important and that the human race is priceless.
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16
User avatar
tonyenglish7
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 10:13 pm
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA
Affiliation: Evangelical

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby tonyenglish7 » Sat May 03, 2014 3:13 pm

spongebob wrote:
Dr Mundo wrote:I really enjoyed listening to you emery, I always looked forward to new podcast episodes.

Tony, I can't believe you said what you said, I feel like you should know better. Perhaps it is just a fundamental misunderstanding of any position out side of your own, rather than something malicious, or at least I hope so.


If Tony ends up being a major contributor to this podcast, I doubt I'll ever listen again.


Why, you cannot deal with the strong logic of my arguments? LOL,,, I am surprised that if you really believed I was wrong you would take the chance to point out my weak arguments. Do you come here for a support group of like minded atheists or to be challenged by other views that you currently think are in error?
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16
User avatar
tonyenglish7
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 10:13 pm
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA
Affiliation: Evangelical

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby mitchellmckain » Sun May 04, 2014 1:23 pm

tonyenglish7 wrote:Why, you cannot deal with the strong logic of my arguments?

No Tony, there is no strong logic to your arguments at all. Even people who agree with your conclusions understand that. No the problems is that you seem to be completely immune to logic, repeating your arguments after they have been shown repeatedly to be invalid.

tonyenglish7 wrote: LOL,,, I am surprised that if you really believed I was wrong you would take the chance to point out my weak arguments.

Everyone has done so repeatedly and are tired of wasting their time, because you do not listen. Like I have explained to you many times before, just because your conclusions are correct doesn't mean your arguments are correct.

tonyenglish7 wrote:Do you come here for a support group of like minded atheists or to be challenged by other views that you currently think are in error?

There are better forums for that. Most are here because they do want reasonable challenges, but I don't think they are getting that from you. You really need to listen to what every other Christian participant in this last podcast said. Stop the canned rhetoric responding to most illogical atheists you have heard and listen to what the people in this forum are actually saying.
Out of Skull for the Stars My first book is now available on Amazon.com
User avatar
mitchellmckain
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 10316
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:32 am
Location: Salt Lake City
Affiliation: Christian

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby tonyenglish7 » Sun May 04, 2014 7:00 pm

Mitch,

You have never shown where any of my arguments are wrong but besides that, you have your own private version of Christianity, one that no other Christian holds too. Now that doesn't mean that you are wrong, you could be the one person who is right, but I have seen many arguments on this board that show the absurd and incoherent traits of your obscure views. It's nice that you have found a private interpretation of reality and I suggest you put together a systematic presentation of that and gain some followers if you think you are actually correct. But if having people agree with your view is a requirement of this board to be considered reasonable, the only person here worse then me is you.... But that is not the case, the truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16
User avatar
tonyenglish7
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 10:13 pm
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA
Affiliation: Evangelical

Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby mitchellmckain » Mon May 05, 2014 1:22 am

tonyenglish7 wrote:You have never shown where any of my arguments are wrong but besides that, you have your own private version of Christianity, one that no other Christian holds too.

Yes however many Christians there may be who simply check their brain at the door, one can be a Christian and think for oneself. Christians don't have to be ideological clones simply parroting what they have been told, they can use the brain God gave them if they really want to make the effort.

tonyenglish7 wrote: Now that doesn't mean that you are wrong, you could be the one person who is right, but I have seen many arguments on this board that show the absurd and incoherent traits of your obscure views.

There is certainly a diversity of opinion on this forum regarding my views but there isn't much diversity of opinion regarding yours.

tonyenglish7 wrote:It's nice that you have found a private interpretation of reality and I suggest you put together a systematic presentation of that and gain some followers if you think you are actually correct.

That is the sort of suggestion that I would expect of someone with no regard for a diversity of human thought, and a Christian who is ready and willing to replace the word of God with their own words, in order to pretend to speak for God and make himself the gatekeeper of heaven. But I do not share these with you. I am quite willing to stick with the Bible as the only words with authority for Christianity, and feel no need whatsoever to make other people think the way that I do regarding objectively undecidable issues. Logical consistency, the agreement with the objective evidence and the desire to live in a free society do not determine all the truth, but it does give us the basis for rejecting what is meaningless, unreasonable or intolerant.

tonyenglish7 wrote:But if having people agree with your view is a requirement of this board to be considered reasonable, the only person here worse then me is you.... But that is not the case, the truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.

Since you have just observed that people DO NOT agree with my views, you can only be referring the commonalities regarding the restriction of logic for what is meaningful and the restriction of the objective evidence for what is reasonable. Your insistence that logically inconsistent things are the truth is meaningless gibberish and the your insistence that things inconsistent with the objective evidence is truth is demonstrably absurd. You can sit there chanting the truth is the truth regardless of such criterion all you want, but you might as well be saying that the earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. No intelligent person will take you seriously.
Out of Skull for the Stars My first book is now available on Amazon.com
User avatar
mitchellmckain
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 10316
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:32 am
Location: Salt Lake City
Affiliation: Christian

PreviousNext

Return to Podcasts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest