Ep. 130: A rolling stop

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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Dr Mundo » Mon May 05, 2014 11:27 am

tonyenglish7 wrote:
Dr Mundo wrote:I really enjoyed listening to you emery, I always looked forward to new podcast episodes.

Tony, I can't believe you said what you said, I feel like you should know better. Perhaps it is just a fundamental misunderstanding of any position out side of your own, rather than something malicious, or at least I hope so.


Dr. Mundo, Sorry that my opinion is offensive to you.
I wouldn't say it is offensive. I just think it is misinformed.


What exactly did I say that makes you think I am malicious?

That a secular lifestyle if lived consistently would be the downfall of society. You either do not know the foundations and implications of a secular world view, OR you do know it and you are lying (being malicious). I say you should know better because you have had a chance to talk with a lot of atheists who have certain worldviews that include morality and good reasons to do so. For instance, I believe you and I have had some conversations in the past where this issue was brought up. Am I wrong?


If I was promoting Atheism would I be offensive as well?
I don't know. Some people find some stuff offensive, and I don't. I try, even though I fail sometimes, to stay clear of deliberately offending anyone. Some do not, I don't really know how to answer your question because I do not know what you mean, sorry.
The question [Do you believe in God?] has a peculiar structure. If I say no, do I mean I'm convinced God doesn't exist, or do I mean I'm not convinced he does exist? Those are two very different questions. [Dr. Arroway]
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby tonyenglish7 » Mon May 05, 2014 2:40 pm

Mitch,

I am always open to engage an intelligent discussion of ideas but what you do is just make blanket statements like my views have been proven wrong without any reference to the facts all you are doing is taking a lazy way out and stopping the discussion which makes me think you have no substance to engage with.
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Armband » Tue May 06, 2014 9:47 pm

I just noticed that the last episode was released. Emery, I wish you all the best with your family and career and I want to personally thank you for all the effort you have put into this. It's funny, thinking about this now, on my wedding day I remember taking a walk outside in the morning and listening to you and Norton debate about the Cosmological Argument. It was refreshing to hear a good conversation about a topic I enjoy between two friends before the big event, which couldn't have gone better! Now I'm happily married and reminiscing about all the thought provoking discussions I listened to at a wonderful and necessary point in my life. As others have said, I hope you realize the impact you've had with this podcast.

Good job, guys.
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby TheFonz » Wed May 07, 2014 7:19 am

To all the good and kindly folks at ACA3,

Thank you all for your efforts these past nine years. This podcast has truly been enriching and educational for me. I can honestly say that I learned more about lived Christianity and atheism from my years listening to this podcast than I did from the Christian university I attended or even my own interactions with fellow Christians. Perhaps that speaks to one of the many challenges Christians need to navigate these days.
It has been a formative experiencing listening to you all, and I thank you for your commitment to the podcast. You will be missed.
All the best,
TheFonz
ps. Emery, the last zinger you had for Norton was priceless. Precisely the type of dialogue I will miss. I, for one, do not think that God will kick your ass.
Simul Iustus Et Peccator
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Simplyme » Wed May 07, 2014 9:13 am

With out Emery I am going to revert to being a mean loud atheist.

He has shown me how to make my point and not lose my cool.

SIGH!!!!



P.S. Will miss these forums to. How will I spend my work days now?
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Emery » Sat May 10, 2014 9:43 am

Thanks for the kind words you guys. The forum will go on as before, we'll just have different voices on the podcast. Hope you all stick around.
They are ill discoverers that think there is no land, when they can see nothing but sea. - Sir Francis Bacon
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Brad » Sun May 11, 2014 7:16 am

Hi Emery and Scott,

I must confess that I haven't listened to the podcast in some time. I suppose feeling guilty about that might be a bit ridiculous, but nevertheless I do feel that way. It seems the minimum support would be merely to listen, and your conversations have, to me, always been worthy of at least that much support.

I always intended to "catch up" with the podcast, but to date haven't done so for three reasons, basically. The first is that, like you, various personal, work, and family obligations began to pile up...

The second reason, frankly, is that I didn't feel that listening to the views and attitudes of some of the other featured guests was a good use of my time. Certainly other folks would differ for any number of valid reasons, so I don't begrudge the fact that not every podcast was my "cup of tea."

The last and largest reason, however, is that I started listening even more to courses from the "Teaching Company" / "The Great Courses" company ** during times when my ears and attention were not otherwise taken. By the way, you might enjoy one I recently listened to that presents an overview and comparison of the lives and teachings of Confucius, Buddha, Jesus, and Mohammad. The course helped me remember some stuff I'd forgotten and presented a number of ideas in new ways that I found thought provoking and useful. The course teacher was clearly raised in a Christian environment and has since broadened his horizons, though he remains keenly aware that there is goodness and power in many of the teachings of Jesus.

Doctrinaire Christian reviewers of the course complain about several things. Most notably, they disagree with the professor's characterization of John the Baptist as a "mentor" to Jesus. I'd agree that this involves some interpretation and/or an unusual use of "mentor," still it's clear the life - and no doubt the death - of John the Baptist had a significant impact on Jesus. No doubt Muslims and some types of Confucians and Buddhists can find bits of the presentation that don't suit their views, too, but overall the course is quite good stuff.

The course ends with the professor's thoughts on how each of the four sages contributed, by his lights, to an understanding of what it means to live a noble life.
Key among the concepts and attributes common to the lives and teachings of all four was a dedication to seeking truth and having the courage to accept the truth as we find it without succumbing to fear or coercion, or to deluding ourselves in some other way. I think that is what you do, too, and what you've tried to achieve, in your gentle, friendly, and inquiring ways, with the podcast. I appreciate both your efforts greatly - and I will listen to this last podcast, at least.

** For the record and for anyone interested in this, ALL of the Teaching Company courses are intermittently "on sale" at 70% off the insane "regular" prices. Some public libraries carry some of the courses, too. No doubt they show up on ebay, too.
Every man is the sum total of his reactions to experience. As your experiences differ and multiply, you become a different man, and hence your perspective changes. - Hunter S. Thompson
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Kiwi » Mon May 12, 2014 1:18 am

Popping back to echo everyone else's sentiments. This thread is a roll call of people I miss. (Hey crazylegs!) I fell out of my C&A forum habit well over a year ago after just getting plain busy with the rest of the real world. But the podcast and the forum played a huge role in my life. When I first discovered it, I had only recently become an atheist after a lifetime of faith and I was desperate for some connection with people in similar situation. I didn't personally know anyone who had left their strong faith as I had. My christian friends and family didn't understand where I was at; my atheist and agnostic friends didn't understand either. There was no atheist church or home group I could go to for support in my de-conversion. My world view had been turned on its head and I was alone in the trauma of that.

C&A is where I found some like-minded people. The generous conversations on the podcast helped to let me down out of my former belief gently and without bitterness. The forum introduced me to a bunch of faceless people I am happy to have known in this online universe. Heartfelt thanks to Emery and everyone else involved.
A man's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink. W.C.Fields
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Brad » Sat May 17, 2014 7:52 am

Was just listening to Scott speak about "engaging with the best version you can find" of theism / atheism, whichever one might consider the "opposite side."
This IS a good idea, at least in an individual, conversational, seeking-to-learn, type situation. As a corresponding clue, I'd like to offer the very fine perspective, IMHO, offered by Philip Kitcher, HERE.

However, Scott, we atheists that really care about our fellow humans, AND the best "versions" of Christians, too, don't really have the option of simply ignoring wacko religious fundamentalists.
Not in America. Not in the Middle East. Not in Africa. Not in lots of places.
That's simply because countless people are harmed by people "who really, really, believe the Bible," - both Hebrew and Christian versions. And people who really, really, believe the Koran, too. And by people who really, really, believe a variety of Hindu "scriptures." Etc.
And the fact that all of these believers who do others serious, life-altering harm really, really, believe in and emphasize the theological / supernatural aspects, not ONLY the honorable and ethical aspects, of their "holy" books is not a coincidence or merely a correlation. It is, and has always been, a matter of how easily it is to assert, in concert with those texts, that "God is on our side" and everybody else must tow the line - or else. It's a matter of believing, against all evidence, that * insert your culture's deity here * dictated or inspired your favorite "holy" book and approves of your interpretation thereof. The fact is, if such a deity ever existed, he / she / it would be either the meanest, most brutal, most reckless critter that ever lived or, at best, does not and never did care in the slightest for what horrors the organisms of Earth might perpetrate upon each other.

Secular people have, at an ethical minimum, the option of adopting a "live and let live" attitude up to the point where the actions (not merely the beliefs) of others begin to cause suffering. Better, we can adopt a more active perspective of constantly seeking verifiable evidence and facts that will help the beings on our planet live better, with greater fulfillment, and in peace. Unlike those who, as you say, "believe the Bible (or Koran/Hadith, etc.) is true," we are not tied and effectively limited to interpreting as "God's Will" what primitive tribal people made into cultural myths 1400-3500 years ago.
(Didn't mean to get going on all that - sorry! :shock: )

As an aside, my heart (that is, the emotional doings in my brain :lol: ) is warmed by reading what Kiwi wrote above.
Emery and other atheists, don't ever think your efforts here didn't make a difference! :smt023
Every man is the sum total of his reactions to experience. As your experiences differ and multiply, you become a different man, and hence your perspective changes. - Hunter S. Thompson
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby tonyenglish7 » Sun May 18, 2014 9:49 pm

Brad wrote:Was just listening to Scott speak about "engaging with the best version you can find" of theism / atheism, whichever one might consider the "opposite side."
This IS a good idea, at least in an individual, conversational, seeking-to-learn, type situation. As a corresponding clue, I'd like to offer the very fine perspective, IMHO, offered by Philip Kitcher, HERE.

However, Scott, we atheists that really care about our fellow humans, AND the best "versions" of Christians, too, don't really have the option of simply ignoring wacko religious fundamentalists.
Not in America. Not in the Middle East. Not in Africa. Not in lots of places.
That's simply because countless people are harmed by people "who really, really, believe the Bible," - both Hebrew and Christian versions. And people who really, really, believe the Koran, too. And by people who really, really, believe a variety of Hindu "scriptures." Etc.
And the fact that all of these believers who do others serious, life-altering harm really, really, believe in and emphasize the theological / supernatural aspects, not ONLY the honorable and ethical aspects, of their "holy" books is not a coincidence or merely a correlation. It is, and has always been, a matter of how easily it is to assert, in concert with those texts, that "God is on our side" and everybody else must tow the line - or else. It's a matter of believing, against all evidence, that * insert your culture's deity here * dictated or inspired your favorite "holy" book and approves of your interpretation thereof. The fact is, if such a deity ever existed, he / she / it would be either the meanest, most brutal, most reckless critter that ever lived or, at best, does not and never did care in the slightest for what horrors the organisms of Earth might perpetrate upon each other.

Secular people have, at an ethical minimum, the option of adopting a "live and let live" attitude up to the point where the actions (not merely the beliefs) of others begin to cause suffering. Better, we can adopt a more active perspective of constantly seeking verifiable evidence and facts that will help the beings on our planet live better, with greater fulfillment, and in peace. Unlike those who, as you say, "believe the Bible (or Koran/Hadith, etc.) is true," we are not tied and effectively limited to interpreting as "God's Will" what primitive tribal people made into cultural myths 1400-3500 years ago.
(Didn't mean to get going on all that - sorry! :shock: )

As an aside, my heart (that is, the emotional doings in my brain :lol: ) is warmed by reading what Kiwi wrote above.
Emery and other atheists, don't ever think your efforts here didn't make a difference! :smt023



Obviously whatever is true is important to know and act upon. Atheists are no different then religious people and the history of the ramifications of atheism are severely etched in recent history when we see the mass murder of Stalin, Pol Pot, and North Korea and the Chinese Revolution. The true version of Christianity is one of Love and Peace and forgiveness of ones enemies. Jesus was unique in teaching turning the other cheek and the ramifications of believing these things as true bring patience, long suffering, perseverance of abuse and uncountable acts of charity. Of course human nature has robbed from this world view and in the name of it some have committed acts of violence and injustice. But you don't judge a movement by its heretics. With your view of atheism, the idea of creating a "Better" culture is subjective and is an illusion because there is no ultimate purpose or value outside of the human experience so it's not consistent within your own world view which is simply the promotion of of the proteins we call DNA. Your "Care" for fellow human beings is just a random result of evolution which has tricked you into that as a survival technique and is not objectively a real value nor can it be even in theory. So as long as you steal from the theistic world view and act accordingly as if it was real then you will help the human race but once you decide to live consistently under the atheistic world view you have no moral authority to judge even the worst of the heretics of any religion no matter how disgusting. You have no moral grounding whatsoever.
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Keep The Reason » Sun May 18, 2014 10:26 pm

tonyenglish7 wrote:The true version of Christianity is one of Love and Peace and forgiveness of ones enemies. Jesus was unique in teaching turning the other cheek and the ramifications of believing these things as true bring patience, long suffering, perseverance of abuse and uncountable acts of charity.


Oh, stop making shit up that simply is demonstrably false. All the below lived hundreds of years before Jesus and they taught it too. Jesus is not unique.

LOVE YOUR ENEMY

Buddhism. Dhammapada 3-5

The prescription to love your enemy and to requite evil with good is sometimes thought of as an impractical and perfectionist ethic, able to be practiced only by a few exceptional souls. But, in fact, this doctrine is widely taught in all religions as a fundamental principle for pursuing relationships with others. The person who insists upon vengeance or retribution is not necessarily committing a crime, but neither will his act of revenge be helpful to spiritual advancement. Revenge, which requites evil with evil, only multiplies evil in the world, while love, by in which one strives to overcome evil with good, spreads goodness in the world.

True love is unconditional and impartial--thus the metaphor of the sun that shines down on all life. It is tested and proven by encounters with those who are difficult to love. Where true love prevails, there no enemies are found.

The concluding passages dispute the prescription to love your enemy when it apparently contravenes the principles of justice and right. Sometimes the best way to love an evil person is to make him face justice, or to hinder him from doing wrong. Nevertheless, these corrective actions should be done with a loving heart and with the other person's welfare uppermost in mind.

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me!" In those who harbor such thoughts hatred is not appeased.

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me!" In those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred is appeased.

Hatreds never cease through hatred in this world; through love alone they cease. This is an eternal law.


Jainism. Vitaragastava 14.5

My Lord! Others have fallen back in showing compassion to their benefactors as you have shown compassion even to your malefactors. All this is unparalleled.



Confucianism. Analects 4.3-4

Of the adage, Only a good man knows how to like people, knows how to dislike them, Confucius said, "He whose heart is in the smallest degree set upon Goodness will dislike no one."


Buddhism. Garland Sutra 23
I should be like the sun, shining universally on all without seeking thanks or reward, able to take care of all sentient beings even if they are bad, never giving up on my vows on this account, not abandoning all sentient beings because one sentient being is evil.


Sikhism. Adi Granth, Asa-ki-Var, M.2, p. 474

What kind of love is this that to another can shift? Says Nanak, True lovers are those who are forever absorbed in the Beloved. Whoever discriminates between treatment held good or bad, Is not a true lover--he rather is caught in calculations.


Taoism. Tao Te Ching 49

The sage has no fixed [personal] ideas.
He regards the people's ideas as his own.
I treat those who are good with goodness,
And I also treat those who are not good with goodness.
Thus goodness is attained.

I am honest with those who are honest,
And I am also honest with those who are dishonest.
Thus honesty is attained.
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby mitchellmckain » Mon May 19, 2014 6:15 am

Keep The Reason wrote:
tonyenglish7 wrote:The true version of Christianity is one of Love and Peace and forgiveness of ones enemies. Jesus was unique in teaching turning the other cheek and the ramifications of believing these things as true bring patience, long suffering, perseverance of abuse and uncountable acts of charity.


Oh, stop making shit up that simply is demonstrably false. All the below lived hundreds of years before Jesus and they taught it too.

Correct. The teaching Tony mentions was not even unique among the Jews. These were thing that were commonly taught among the rabbis of the jews at the time. What Jesus taught that was so different from them was a rejection of holy separation from sinners, Gentiles and other "unclean" persons in human society. It is one of the things that makes it so clear that the following pseudo-Christian rhetoric and dogma is so absurd that it turns Christianity on its head:
1. God cannot associate with us because of sin.
2. God is so pure and holy that any offense against him is infinite and must be punished by an eternity in hell.
3. God cannot forgive us without an absolutely pure and sinless sacrifice
These are made up human doctrines by self-righteous Christians seeking to justify themselves and their salvation by works of the mind Gnostic legalism.


Keep The Reason wrote:Jesus is not unique.

Now you are the one making a claim which is demonstrably false. tut tut tut You do need to be careful about absolute statements like that. :tongue:
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Razor » Mon May 19, 2014 6:41 am

These are made up human doctrines

Oh yes. This statement extends so much further than these 3 tho.
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Rian » Sun May 25, 2014 11:00 am

I just saw this thread - I'm in the middle of battling cancer so I don't have much time or energy, but it's well worth spending a bit to say a big "thank you!" to Emery for this forum and for setting an example of how a good discussion can take place between people with different beliefs. Thanks, Emery! and I hope to be back in a few months and get that Civility Lounge re-started :)
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

Christianity is the red pill - go for it! Seek the truth, wherever it leads you.
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Re: Ep. 130: A rolling stop

Postby Emery » Fri May 30, 2014 6:30 pm

Good to hear from you Rian, and best of luck with the cancer battle. You're an unbelievably tough lady.
They are ill discoverers that think there is no land, when they can see nothing but sea. - Sir Francis Bacon
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