Intelligent Design: is it science?

[wondersforoyarsa]

That telicthoughts is a good site, Wonders. As usual, the debate is more than skin deep, and each side tends to misrepresent the other. Hence, the reason for the two-way discussion format of our podcast!

Still, I think folks like Eugenie Scott legitimately attack the simplistic ID arguments, because they are put out there so often, as the Dover school district did. Similarly, there are fundy atheists that put out poor arguments, and even though they aren't representative of all atheist arguments, theists should attack them too.

If either side puts their head on the chopping block, folks are right to take a swing!

Emery, in the light of your interest in Dover, you might like to take a look at this post:

A Post Wedge World.

[OzAnt]

OzAnt wrote:
Death served me well for 4+ billion years.

Rian wrote:

Now that's an interesting statement - could you elaborate, please?

Rian, I think Ant was referring to the state of nonexistance, which is how most nonbelievers view what occurs at death. There is no spirit realm or afterlife, it's just over and we no longer exist. Our existence relies on our physical bodies, while awareness of that existance is dependent on our minds via our physical brains. Once our bodies major organs cease to function, we simply are no longer, period, just it was prior to our conception.

Thanks Sue! Phew, glad somebody understood me

Regards,
Ant

[Rian]

But Oz, what I was interested in was your use of "me", and how all those millions of deaths had served you, personally, well - and what that "well" actually was - what was the good or goods that it brought to you?
I'm glad Sue explained a thought of yours well (she's done that for me before, too - I guess she has a gift of summing things up nicely ) but I don't see how her explanation meshes with your choice of words. Could you (or Sue ) please try again with the points I mentioned above?

Thanks! (I just had to put in a dancing food thing - I love 'em!)

[OzAnt]

...millions of deaths...

Regards,
Ant

[JustJim]

Talk about a misquote/misunderstanding! Ant said "death" served him well for 4+ billion years, which Rian somehow understood to mean "millions of deaths" - even after Sue explained that by "death" he was referring to the state of not existing, for 4+ billion years, and being "okay" (served well) with that.

I got what you meant, Ant. Good point, too!

Jim

[wondersforoyarsa]

I got what you meant, Ant. Good point, too!

I'm sorry folks, but I must say the Emperor has no clothes here. Ant, you do indeed fear death. If I were to take you, sit you down, and tell you matter of factually that I will kill you, and in an hour you'll be dead, you would fear me. I could put you to sleep, and kill you in your sleep, so that you would not be conscious of the process of dying. You would be no less terrified, and you would beg to live. One more breath, one more moment to exist, to be - you would absolutely scream for.

[OzAnt]

I got what you meant, Ant. Good point, too!

I'm sorry folks, but I must say the Emperor has no clothes here. Ant, you do indeed fear death. If I were to take you, sit you down, and tell you matter of factually that I will kill you, and in an hour you'll be dead, you would fear me. I could put you to sleep, and kill you in your sleep, so that you would not be conscious of the process of dying. You would be no less terrified, and you would beg to live. One more breath, one more moment to exist, to be - you would absolutely scream for.

I hear what you're saying there Wonders, but the fact is, I don't fear being dead; the state of non-existence, the state of nothingness. I was in this state prior to being born, and I'm comfortable with it.

What you talk about is my will to live. I don't challenge that. Taken to an extreme example, if I were to push a suicide candidate off the ledge he was standing on, I'm pretty sure his last thought wouldn't be "thank you"!! Yet, if this candidate jumped off the ledge himself, to all my pleadings of "don't do it mate", I have to wonder; does he fear death (as opposed to dying, or the process of letting go of life)?

I actually must say, that Christianity is a positive in this regard. I think there would be a lot less suicides if people genuinely believed that suicide was:
A) a sin
B) sin = hell (where: hell = one's worst nightmare, whatever that might be)

The will to live is an incredibly powerful force. I can't say I fully understand it because it occurs in all of the animal kingdom, which means, it goes beyond mankind's conscious dreaming, planning, hoping, striving mind. All I can say is I recognise it.

Regards,
Ant

[Rian]

Talk about a misquote/misunderstanding! Ant said "death" served him well for 4+ billion years, which Rian somehow understood to mean "millions of deaths" - even after Sue explained that by "death" he was referring to the state of not existing, for 4+ billion years, and being "okay" (served well) with that.

I got what you meant, Ant. Good point, too!

Jim

Because if he didn't exist prior to his conception, as Sue said, then how can death have served him, personally, well for more than the number of years that he has existed? How could it have served him well for 4+ billion years? That's why I asked what I did - I was trying to understand what me meant.

The millions of deaths were referring to the number of deaths that must have taken place during the time period he specified - 4+ billion years (and I waaaay underestimated! )

If he had just said "us" instead of "me" in his statement, that would have been fine - it's just the "me" and the "4+ billion years" put together that I don't understand, given his belief that he doesn't actually exist except for (hopefully ) a long, regular human lifetime.

So I guess my question is - how can YOU have been served well during all that time, Oz, when you haven't existed all that time? I don't get what you mean there - could you please explain?

[OzAnt]

So I guess my question is - how can YOU have been served well during all that time, Oz, when you haven't existed all that time? I don't get what you mean there - could you please explain?

Death IS the state of non-existence. Saying death served me well for billions of years, is saying non-existence served me well for billions of years. I was not in pain, I have no flashbacks, nightmares, coldness or anything else. I was, to the best of my knowledge, quite comfortable being dead because I simply did not exist.

If he had just said "us" instead of "me" in his statement, that would have been fine - it's just the "me" and the "4+ billion years" put together that I don't understand, given his belief that he doesn't actually exist...

You mean you wouldn't have multiplied 4 odd billion years by all of the souls that have been and gone on earth?

...except for (hopefully ) a long, regular human lifetime.

Thank you, as I hope you do too!

Because if he didn't exist prior to his conception, as Sue said, then how can death have served him, personally, well for more than the number of years that he has existed?

Rian, I can't say it served you, or anyone else, well. You might, for all I know, in fact have flashbacks, nightmares, etc about your prior non-existence. I'd go further, and say that if I searched, I'd probably find people out there who indeed do claim to have experiences from beyond.

Regards,
Ant

[Emery]

Emery, in the light of your interest in Dover, you might like to take a look at this post:

A Post Wedge World.

Thanks wonders. From what I can tell of his argument, I agree. Just because ID proponents may have a religious agenda, that shouldn't preclude ID from being in the science classroom, if it indeed is science. Science is science, and if a theory uses the scientific method and withstands peer-reviewed scrutiny, then the beliefs of the people who promote it should not matter.

The problem that the Kitzmiller court found, however, was that ID did not use the scientific method, that it appealed to supernaturalism, something that science should not do. Science is about what we can discover about the natural world. If we want to talk about the supernatural world, fine. But let's put that in the appropriate curriculum, not the science curriculum.

I also don't think that arguing for design is not scientific per se. For example, if some ancient race of aliens did design the first primitive life forms as an experiment, and we are the result of that experiment having evolved over the millennia, then we ostensibly could discover that through science. But as I understand the argument, there is simply no support for the existence of such a designer--alien or divine. Therefore the scientific method would not warrant a leap to the conclusion that such being(s) exist, and should stay, for now, within the realm of evolutionary biology that we do know about.

I don't rule out the possibility that there could be a designer somewhere in the chain of events, that we just haven't discovered yet. But I do know that the only reliable way we have of knowing something is the scientific method, and perhaps it's a limitation of science, but it just does not warrant belief in a designer yet.

[Emery]

I got what you meant, Ant. Good point, too!

I'm sorry folks, but I must say the Emperor has no clothes here. Ant, you do indeed fear death. If I were to take you, sit you down, and tell you matter of factually that I will kill you, and in an hour you'll be dead, you would fear me. I could put you to sleep, and kill you in your sleep, so that you would not be conscious of the process of dying. You would be no less terrified, and you would beg to live. One more breath, one more moment to exist, to be - you would absolutely scream for.

That would depend on what your life was like. I fear death because it's unknown, and anything unknown is scary. Other than that, there is no supernatural basis to that fear. Also I fear death because it would mean the end of my life, because I have much to live for. So it's my love of life that causes my fear of death. If, however, I was like Job, in great pain and with everyone I loved destroyed, I might welcome death.

When I used to suffer from depression in high school, I distinctly remember hoping I could die. When life becomes too painful, the idea of death can be quite welcome.

[spongebob]

When life becomes too painful, the idea of death can be quite welcome.

well, put Emery. This is also true of some people advanced in age and in poor health. Death can certainly be a relief for some who have had a difficult life or have suffered physically. It's not that they long for non-existence, just relief from their suffering, and often times death is the only relief.

I completely get what OzAnt is saying (the first time). It's pretty obvious what his point was, that non-existence is not threatening. But he should extend his comfort zone all the way to 14 billion years, the time our universe has been in existence.

[darkumbra]

I got what you meant, Ant. Good point, too!

I'm sorry folks, but I must say the Emperor has no clothes here. Ant, you do indeed fear death. If I were to take you, sit you down, and tell you matter of factually that I will kill you, and in an hour you'll be dead, you would fear me. I could put you to sleep, and kill you in your sleep, so that you would not be conscious of the process of dying. You would be no less terrified, and you would beg to live. One more breath, one more moment to exist, to be - you would absolutely scream for.

Given that Wonders has left the building - replying to this might be pointless.

A few years ago I had to undergo open heart surgery. Chances of dying? about 1 in 50 - not so slim as to be outside of my ability to contemplate my death. I was in hospital for about a month before surgery, so I had more than enough quiet time to contemplate what might happen. I can honestly state that at no point in this extended waiting process was I concerned about dying. I'll admit to being a bit surprised as to how stoic I was about the whole thing. After all - this was the 'biggie' and I was definitely told that I was supposed to be afraid of all this - but thing is, I wasn't.

Now, If Wonders did presume to tell me he was going to kill me, or if I was attacked in the street, would I fight back? Of course. But is that a response to someone taking what they have no right to take? Or as a response to a 'fear of death'?

All I know is this, as I was being wheeled towards the operating room, and before they started to medicate me, I was not afraid of not waking up.

[OzAnt]

Given that Wonders has left the building - replying to this might be pointless.

Well, I'm glad you replied, otherwise we wouldn't have heard you share

All I know is this, as I was being wheeled towards the operating room, and before they started to medicate me, I was not afraid of not waking up.

As I said in my reply to Wonders, I'm sure if I pushed somebody threatening to commit suicide off a ledge, I'm sure amongst their last thoughts wouldn't be an expression of "thanks!". Similarly, I bet that if, as you were being wheeled towards the operating room, somebody started to choke you (for some bizarre and inexplicable reason), I bet you'd struggle, and fight back as best as you could. What kicks into play is our primary instinct, our will to live. I don't think it's even, as you speculate,

someone taking what they have no right to take

because it occurs in all of the animal kingdom. Even a dog, howling in lament of its dead master, I'm sure would immediately fight tooth and nail if someone dunked its head under water, just as aggressively as it would at any other time in its life.

BTW, I'm very glad the operation was a success

Regards,
Ant

[OzAnt]

I completely get what OzAnt is saying (the first time). It's pretty obvious what his point was, that non-existence is not threatening. But he should extend his comfort zone all the way to 14 billion years, the time our universe has been in existence.

...I must be psychic!! I actually went to bed with the thought ...hmmmm, okay, the earth is 4.5 odd billion years old, how long before that was it that the 'matter' that I eventually was constructed from came into existence? IOW, how long since the big bang? ...and the very last thought before I fell asleep? "I wonder if somebody will pick me up on that..."!!

Tongue-in-cheek jokes aside (re psychic connection), thank you for clearing that one up for me Bob!

Regards,
Ant