Hope You're Happy Now...

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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:08 pm

Ah, finally, you've actually begun to make statements that have a perspective. Feel better now? Good.

Chapabel wrote:I am not an economist but I do understand the necessity of taxes in order to efficiently run a government. However, I firmly believe is a better utilization of taxes already in effect. Cut the foolish spending,


I agree. Let's start off with the military. We presently have a massive military force that is generally known to be larger than the next dozen or so countries after us. We have a Navy so big that the second largest naval force is our own Air Force. And the future is clearly showing us that the next battle grounds will not be air-strikes and so on but they will primarily be in cyberspace. That's where our focus should be, and it's vastly cheaper to train skilled cyber warriors than it is building huge aircraft and weaponry.

cut the pork and stop sending money to countries bent on harming America (or the UK in your instance).


Again -- the worst pork is everything attached to the military-industrial complex. Senators regular work hard to bring home those military contracts, and it's one of the few areas in which we still do old-time manufacturing. Now, I personally like manufacturing things-- my inclination is to see a nation that is working on the factory line as "productive". But-- I'm living in the past in that sense. Manufacturing is not the best industry to be in . Renewable energy, cyber-defense and space exploration are the coming wave and we're on the ground floor now.

The problem is the dinosaurs like me in Congress still think in terms of building armaments because that's where the easy buck is, and it's choking everything else.

Why continue raising taxes when the effect does indeed trickle down to the poor? Why is it so many corporations are leaving America for overseas locations? Its because of increased taxes and more government regulations.


No it's not. The trickle down doesn't work because of human greed. Consider: Each quarter, every public corporation is tasked with showing growth in dividends to its investors. While profit motives stimulate growth, there are top-out effects that will eventually come into play. We see this is runaway costs of living -- in houses, cars, etc-- these things are actually cheaper to build than they were 50 years ago, but massively more expensive. To buy a house almost anywhere in the USA (in a decent neighborhood) you need to earn 6 figures or have 2 incomes. In the early 1960s my old man bought a house, raised 3 kids and had a nice new car every 3-4 years on a single salary in the 20,000-30,000 range. Classic middle class. And the house was paid off within 15 years.

That's pretty much impossible today. The reason it's impossible is because despite efficiencies and better building materials, corporate greed has gone off the map, and it changed under Reagan. Now companies can go offshore with NO PENALTY, and outsource to slave labor markets with NO PENALTY-- and as everyone knows we have obscene disparity between CEOs and workers-- where CEOs earn 400, 500, 1,000 times more than their workers. Always more. Always looking for higher profit. Always looking for cheaper alternatives. Making their wealth on the US consumer market, and then moving their headquarters to the Caiman Islands with NO PENALTIES for doing so.

Not because there's too much regulation -- WHAT regulation? WHAT unions? WHAT increased taxes? The top 1% barely pays any taxes. Some companies pay so little it's effectively like paying no taxes at all (link). And don't get me started on the obscenely wealthy churches who pay NO TAXES at all. The automotive and banking industries were handed billions (700 billion in fact!) and while it saved them (too big to fail) they've changed nothing except increased the size of their corporate bonuses. and then to add the final coup de grace, this corporatocracy grants itself Citizenship Status. Guess who subsidizes all that generosity to the wealthy? I think we can all agree that the BURDEN certainly "trickles down".

To argue that "higher taxes" and "regulation" stifles any US business is to seriously misunderstand the facts.

Therefore the middle class employee looses his job to someone overseas who is willing to work for a few coins a day. The rich people will find some other method of hiding their money and it is still the poor man left holding the bag.


Yes, this is partly true, but only because we do not invest in the coming industries that would change this. In the earlier 20th century, industrial visionaries like Edison, Ford, Rockefeller, etc. invested in industries that were clearly sign-posts to greater prosperity, and they were granted tax incentives for doing so-- in other words, government as an INVESTOR rather than a PROTECTOR. We don't do that today. Now, government works to break unions (Reagan), and they remove monopoly regulations (Clinton and Bush) and the relax pollution strictures which simply allow the industrial complex to take a shit wherever they want and not bother having to flush the toilet.

Renewable energy. Cyber defense. Space exploration (imagine being the first to start mining asteroids).

I do not begrudge rich people. If they worked hard to earn their money why should they be penalized for their wealth? Doesn't that discourage people from striving to make their lives better if they are only going to be placed in a higher tax bracket?


For most of the country's history the higher tax bracket was exactly what built our wealth and economic power. It discouraged nobody. Even at 90% taxation, the wealthy were obscenely wealthy and lived like kings. Now we're at about 35.5%, which is "high" for the last 30 years but ridiculously low overall.

Here's a summary of what was analyzed by the Tax Foundation (Source link):

Today's government spending levels are indeed too high, at least relative to the average level of tax revenue the government has generated over the past 60 years. Unless Americans are willing to radically increase the amount of taxes they pay relative to GDP, government spending must eventually be cut.

Today's income tax rates are strikingly low relative to the rates of the past century, especially for rich people. For most of the century, including some boom times, top-bracket income tax rates were much higher than they are today.

Contrary to what Republicans would have you believe, super-high tax rates on rich people do not appear to hurt the economy or make people lazy: During the 1950s and early 1960s, the top bracket income tax rate was over 90%--and the economy, middle-class, and stock market boomed.

Super-low tax rates on rich people also appear to be correlated with unsustainable sugar highs in the economy--brief, enjoyable booms followed by protracted busts. They also appear to be correlated with very high inequality. (For example, see the 1920s and now).

Periods of very low tax rates have been followed by periods with very high tax rates, and vice versa. So history suggests that tax rates will soon start going up.

Article Link


If you don;t believe me look at the increased number of people here in America that have become dependent on the government. Instead of getting a job and working hard to make an honest living they would rather stay on the government's dole and live off the backs of those who are being taxed more by the government.


LOL, well -- you can thank the Bush Republicans for that. He completely tanked the economy and sent banks into a freefall -- thanks to a loosening of regulations that allowed Wall St to play unbelievable games with OUR MONEY.

Obama's administration has been steadily increasing the employment force and nobody can argue against that fact (and... in case you're inclined to do so -- go here).

Also, using your fav, Forbes.com, here's an op-ed with lots of links and pictures you can look at to show Obama outperforms Reagan on Jobs, Growth and Investment:

Obama Outperforms Reagan On Jobs, Growth And Investing

The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) today issued America’s latest jobs report covering August. And it’s a disappointment. The economy created an additional 142,000 jobs last month. After six consecutive months over 200,000, most pundits expected the string to continue, including ADP which just yesterday said 204,000 jobs were created in August.

One month variation does not change a trend

Even though the plus-200,000 monthly string was broken (unless revised upward at a future date,) unemployment did continue to decline and is now reported at only 6.1%. Jobless claims were just over 300,000; lowest since 2007. Despite the lower than expected August jobs number, America will create about 2.5 million new jobs in 2014.

And that is great news.

Link



It won't work. I believe it was your former Prime Minister Margret Thatcher that said "The touble with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money".


Well, you seem dead silent on corporate welfare which runs into the billions, and military spending which does likewise. Curtail those two things and we could even keep the tax rate for the wealthy 1% at 35%.

Rather than cutting vastly less expensive services for people YOU deem are "lazy" (which is the underlying mantra of conservatives), let's cut this wasteful military spending, these corporate block parties, and instead have the taxes we pay into our system work for us.
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Razor » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:43 pm

Chapabel wrote:Why thank you Razor. I spent a total of 12 years in the military. Four years in the Marine Corps and 8 years in the Coast Guard. I doubt we crossed paths since I have been out since 1995.

I am not an economist but I do understand the necessity of taxes in order to efficiently run a government. However, I firmly believe is a better utilization of taxes already in effect. Cut the foolish spending, cut the pork and stop sending money to countries bent on harming America (or the UK in your instance).


Spending current tax dollars more efficiently is certainly desireable. It has, however, proved extremely difficult in all Western countries to achieve this. I think it is very unlikely that any government will be as well run as some corporations. Believe me, some big corporations are run pretty badly too.

Why continue raising taxes when the effect does indeed trickle down to the poor?

This is the point - society seems to think it is a good idea to redistribute some wealth from the rich to the poor. This is at the heart of all European democracies, and is present, tho not to the same degree, in the USA.
Why is it so many corporations are leaving America for overseas locations? Its because of increased taxes and more government regulations. Therefore the middle class employee looses his job to someone overseas who is willing to work for a few coins a day. The rich people will find some other method of hiding their money and it is still the poor man left holding the bag.


This is not true. There are some US companies that move their headquarters elsewhere, but this is a corporate tax issue, not a personal one. Also, regulations were recently changed (Obama again) that drastically reduced this practice. You may remember Pfizer was going to buy a UK pharma company to do a 'tax inversion' (move tax jurisdiction to lower tax bill) but pulled out because of the change in US regulations.
The movement of jobs from the US to other countries is nothing to do with tax, but the cost of labour. It is cheaper to employ people in India (this is the latest country to have 'skilled jobs' outsourced to it) than it is in the US or Europe.

The ultimate reason for all this is that the management of all companies have what is called a fiduciary duty to their shareholders. They are obligated to act in the best interests of the shareholders. If that means moving jobs overseas and moving tax jurisdictions then they are going to do just that. Managers and executives also get large bonuses and share options aplenty to help motivate them - people are well motivated by the prospect of a few million dollars.

I do not begrudge rich people. If they worked hard to earn their money why should they be penalized for their wealth?

The tax increases propsed aren't really aimed at income, they are closing loopholes that reduce tax on assets and tax on inheritance

Doesn't that discourage people from striving to make their lives better if they are only going to be placed in a higher tax bracket? If you don;t believe me look at the increased number of people here in America that have become dependent on the government.

You are really mixing up cause and effect here. You can indeed argue that people can be discouraged from earning more by higher income tax. The taxes proposed are not on income, so this isn't really valid.
Also, the reason more people are becoming dependent on the government is because real wages (inflation adjusted) are not doing too well right now. We are exiting a massive recession, so this isn't exactly unexpected. The USA is doing FAR better than Europe or Japan.

Instead of getting a job and working hard to make an honest living they would rather stay on the government's dole and live off the backs of those who are being taxed more by the government.

As I understand it, social security is pretty low in the USA. In the UK there is a debate around how much those who don't work should get, but we pay out a very great deal more than in the US.
It won't work. I believe it was your former Prime Minister Margret Thatcher that said "The touble with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money".

It is a very sound theory that an increase in asset tax on the wealthy and redistribution to the poor will boost GDP through increased consumption - this benefits everyone, including the rich. Also, the really rich don't need the money. Not even slightly

Socialism can be taken too far, that is what Thatcher was saying. But so can capitalism. The USA HAS taken it too far - the lack of free healthcare is a stain on the face of your country - you let poor people die because they don't have money. I won't live in a society that does that.
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:18 pm

Well said, Raz. We don't agree on every nuance, but most of the core issues (I know less about Europe and enjoyed your perspective).

I happen to work for a company that does outsource, but it also grows domestically almost as much. It's only slightly off-balanced by a recent excursion into Latin America. But our two places of greatest growth have been -- almost person for person -- in the Philippines and in the USA. The reality of business as a more global economy and market is essential if one is to remain competitive, but I'm really comfortable with how the organization I work for is committed to jobs for Americans at almost a one-to-one basis with overseas. And due to that approach, the company has grown larger by about 15% year to year. Even since 2008, when everything tanked.

Now, if I could only get a raise!
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:28 pm

Chapabel wrote:BTW, "Bless your heart" is not an insult, but a term of sympathy. Bless your heart Reason...


You're also a liar. Here's what you said to explain your use of the "Bless your heart" comment in the Christian thread Link:

Down here in the South we have an expression for those who are so stupid that they can't walk through a door without bumping their heads or they are so ugly they could scare buzzards off a gut wagon. That expression is "Bless their heart". As I read your posts I am forced to shake my head and say to myself "Bless his heart".


You said that over disagreeing with mitch about Christianity, wherein you insist he isn't a Twue Christian™ because you have differing interpretations.

Stupid and ugly? That isn't "sympathy" -- it's contempt (which you have a right to have). And your fellow Christians are calling you out for it, deservedly so.

So look, let's cut out the games. You aren't going to get away with pretending you're not the cookie-cutter Christian wingnut we all instantly recognize. You're a hypocrite and you're a liar and you're an insult to Christianity -- which is perfectly fine by me. You do more for my cause they you could possibly realize.

Now, don't let me stop you from having your, "I am above the fray because I am the humble one who is so much better than the rest of you" commentary, but then get back to answering the economic rebuttals, if you please.
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Chapabel » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:09 pm

I can agree with both of you to an extent. However, the financial collapse of 2008 was due in large part by Clinton and his democrats forcing lending institutions in giving home loans to high risk borrowers. By the time Bush came into office he could not reverse the course because of a democrat congress was touting their push for everyone to own their own home. This is not my opinion but fact. I agree that Bush did not execute the best economic plan but again, a large portion of the blame goes to Clinton and his minions.

I also agree that space exploration, cyber defense and renewable energy do deserve our investment. I disagree with you about the military though. Now, there is massive waste in the military because of the stipulations placed on allocated money. $200 for a hammer is ridicules. Cut out the waste and that money would be better spent providing personal protection, new armament and new technology and so forth. I fully hold to Reagan's mantra of peace through strength.

Now, as far as calling me a liar, Reason. You were doing so well until you resorted to childish name-calling again. When I say "Bless your heart" it is because I feel sorry for you; I pity you. So, bless your heart, go back to mamas teat until you can behave yourself.
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Razor » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:39 pm

Chapabel wrote:I can agree with both of you to an extent. However, the financial collapse of 2008 was due in large part by Clinton and his democrats forcing lending institutions in giving home loans to high risk borrowers.


I have a degree in economics and have a job very much related to this field. I can assure you that the cast majority of the blame for the financial crash lies with the investment banks and the financial institutions. The government was most at fault for not having sufficient regulation in place- this is something the Republicans would have relaxed even further. If you would like a run-down of the mechanism by which the crash started and why Lehman fell, either have a google or I can give you a summary.

By the time Bush came into office he could not reverse the course because of a democrat congress was touting their push for everyone to own their own home. This is not my opinion but fact. I agree that Bush did not execute the best economic plan but again, a large portion of the blame goes to Clinton and his minions.


This is speculation at best. Can you demonstrate a causal link to substantiate please?
I also agree that space exploration, cyber defense and renewable energy do deserve our investment. I disagree with you about the military though. Now, there is massive waste in the military because of the stipulations placed on allocated money. $200 for a hammer is ridicules. Cut out the waste and that money would be better spent providing personal protection, new armament and new technology and so forth. I fully hold to Reagan's mantra of peace through strength.


There is waste in a lot of government spending. But maybe it is better to buy a high-tech hammer from a US company than spend overseas? the US BOP is pretty bad as it is
200 bucks is a lot, but I think it is a very extreme example.
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Chapabel » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:00 pm

Well Razor there is no way I can win a debate with you in this area considering your education and active employment in this field. I believe both parties are to blame for our situation. However, you cannot convince me that Obama and the democrats are not dead set against God and His set of morals He has put forth for us to live by. So again, I pray for a conservative Republican for president in 2016. Maybe he/she will consult you for economic advice.
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby darkumbra » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:26 pm

Chapabel wrote:Well Razor there is no way I can win a debate with you in this area considering your education and active employment in this field. I believe both parties are to blame for our situation. However, you cannot convince me that Obama and the democrats are not dead set against God and His set of morals He has put forth for us to live by. So again, I pray for a conservative Republican for president in 2016. Maybe he/she will consult you for economic advice.


And then we can invade another country in a premptive strike looking for more mythical WMD? Destabilize another region and once again have no exit strategy?

I did notice you didn't respond to my earlier comment in this regard.
The "god experience"? I have no idea what you are talking about. This sounds like COMPLETE BULLSHIT that you are just making up. How do you define "god experience" in objective scientific terms?-Mitch - a Christian beyond compare.
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Razor » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:37 pm

Ok, I'm not really trying to compete with Yellen and the Fed, just so I'm not overselling myself.

I personally view policy that takes no account of any of the gods proposed by various people to be a good thing. Basing your decisions on a book written by iron age peasants a coupe of thousand years ago (the bible and Koran fit in this category), or by some other dubious people even longer ago (insert many other religions here), is unlikely to give rise to sensible governance.

I have read the bible, and I didn't remember much on fiscal policy, macroeconomics, equitable healthcare provision. .. there IS some stuff on foreign policy I guess, but I don't think it's really compatible with the current political landscape.

Also, I fail to see how a tax decision or healthcare provision, or most policy really, would necessitate any American citizen to change their personal behavior and moral code. Could you explain how please?
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:09 pm

Now, as far as calling me a liar, Reason. You were doing so well until you resorted to childish name-calling again.


I'm not calling you a name, I am noting that you are caught in a lie. A person who does not tell the truth and does this purposely is known as a "liar". If you don't like the label, don't adopt the behavior.

For instance, when Jesus calls out the hypocrites in John 8:44 he is calling out the liar Satan (and, er, the Jews but let's move past that for a second):

The Children of the Devil

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


You're lying about the "bless your heart" thing. It's meant facetiously, and it's hiding one's contempt for -- in your words -- someone stupid or "really ugly" (nice job on the depth of character you adopt as well).

No one needs your "pity". It's smug and self-important and it makes you look foolish. And it doesn't represent your "Jesus" very well either. And for the hat-trick, it's hypocritical (and Clare can see this in you too).

You deserve to be called out for it.
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:11 pm

Chapabel wrote:However, you cannot convince me that Obama and the democrats are not dead set against God and His set of morals He has put forth for us to live by. So again, I pray for a conservative Republican for president in 2016. Maybe he/she will consult you for economic advice.


Pfffft, lol.

This guy kills me, lol. :rofl: I don't think it's possible to get any better.
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:14 pm

Razor wrote:there IS some stuff on foreign policy I guess, but I don't think it's really compatible with the current political landscape.


Really? It looks like ISIS and the Taliban are taking their entire combat strategy straight out of Exodus and Joshua.
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby gordsd » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:06 pm

Chapabel wrote:. . . A little history reveals socialism does not succeed:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/elainepofel ... d-version/
http://patriotupdate.com/articles/14-re ... n-america/


As long as you listen to sites like forbes.com and pratiotupdate.com you are going to have views like you do. To say something like "socialism does not succeed" throws up a pretty big flag. I mean what degree of socialism are you talking about? Are you talking about communistic dictatorships? Or are you talking about poorer countries who try to be more socialistic but get attacked by the West in fear of their success? Or are you saying all countries with more socialistic governments than ours are failures like Sweeden, Germany, France, etc. Even Mexico and Canada have national healthcare and those my neighbor have interviewed from those countries say they like it and have no problem with it.

History shows that when Republicans get in power they usually get us into a war and get us so far in debt that all is left to do is raise taxes; then they blame giving to the poor as the problem! The Republicans just lie; they lie all the time. They say one thing and then they provide our tax money to subsidize all their friends.

However, the Democrats are not much better; they backdown like cowards all the time because their campaigns are paid for by the rich. They'll say anything to get elected and then they can't do anything, when they are elected, because they owe their campaign supporters.

Anyway, Chapabel I appreciate that you are researching things but you need to seek out other sources of info.
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Chapabel » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:45 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:
You're lying about the "bless your heart" thing. It's meant facetiously, and it's hiding one's contempt for -- in your words -- someone stupid or "really ugly" (nice job on the depth of character you adopt as well).

No one needs your "pity". It's smug and self-important and it makes you look foolish. And it doesn't represent your "Jesus" very well either. And for the hat-trick, it's hypocritical (and Clare can see this in you too).

You deserve to be called out for it.

I find it amazing how you have rushed to Mitch's defense. A person you admitted to not caring much for. I suppose that whole "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing kinda kicked in here, huh?

I really don't care if you believe me or not. We use that expression down here alot for people who are stupid, ugly, sick, poor, etc...I do feel sorry for Mitch. He is completely unable to defend his theological position with anything other than his own bias opinion. Bless his heart.

I commend you, Reason, for replying to me without the use of vulgar words, but since you feel the need to quote scripture to me why not give me your interpretation of John 3:18?
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Re: Hope You're Happy Now...

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:39 pm

Chapabel wrote:I find it amazing how you have rushed to Mitch's defense. A person you admitted to not caring much for. I suppose that whole "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing kinda kicked in here, huh?


No, the "You're a hypocrite and a smug self righteous blowhard" thing kicked in regarding you. Mitch and I don't get along but I'm not defending him so much as exposing you.

I really don't care if you believe me or not. We use that expression down here alot for people who are stupid, ugly, sick, poor, etc...I do feel sorry for Mitch


Yes, I'm sure you do use it a lot. It's the Jesus in you working it's magic.

He is completely unable to defend his theological position with anything other than his own bias opinion. Bless his heart.


Since there is utterly no demonstration of ANY religious claims, ALL you theists suffer from the exact same problem. Theology is the study of myths confused as reality. It's ALL simply opinion. Mitch, you, Clare, all of you are simply mouthing assertions with nothing to back it up other than other assertions. Throw down some proof that your claims are true, and then we'll talk. Until then, it's merely more blah blah blahing from people who think they have a coherent worldview based on an amalgam of bronze age books.

I commend you, Reason, for replying to me without the use of vulgar words,


Wow, imagine my joy in receiving your fucking commendation. I look forward to your continued obsession with my mother's teats.

but since you feel the need to quote scripture to me why not give me your interpretation of John 3:18?


I could do that. Or, I could run long heated needles into my eyes.

Let me save you a lot of trouble by telling you what I think k of the bible. The bible is nothing but stories, some based on some vague historical events, some completely made up, all of it a struggle for primitive superstitious technologically illiterate humans to make sense the best they could regarding a mysterious world they found themselves in, none of it remotely true in the sense that it illustrates anything that actually happens in the real world. As the literature of an immature species, it's fascinating, but as reality its literally absurd, exactly like the stories of Thor, and Hercules, etc would be considered absurd if people believed they were actually true.
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