Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Callers to action, creators of Superpacs, and championers of causes great and small unite! Air all your political thoughts here. Whitened teeth, dyed hair, and spray-on tans not required but preferred.

Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Keep The Reason » Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:13 pm

It's really so easy...

To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
User avatar
Keep The Reason
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 10371
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:50 pm
Affiliation: Reasonist

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:52 pm

Interesting video. Yes, I totally agree with this. It accomplishes what they need to do without dragging others into it. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
User avatar
Patrick Star
resident
resident
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:54 pm
Affiliation: undisclosed

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Keep The Reason » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:33 am

I think the problem becomes that Jesus can't hear them unless there's a paid school official joining in. Because being god and all.
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
User avatar
Keep The Reason
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 10371
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:50 pm
Affiliation: Reasonist

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Clare » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:45 pm

A high school coach or anyone leading a prayer whether on a loudspeaker or in a huddle for example isn't pushing the supremacy of a particular religion on behalf of the Government. He or she is an individual expressing their own religious beliefs and anyone who wants to participate can do so and therefore express their beliefs. If Congress were to come together and try to create legislation that supports one religion over others then that would be in clear violation of the separation of Church and State. As for tax dollars, they will always go to people and programs that not everyone will agree with. But, in this case, money is being paid to an individual coaching a public school sports team. They're not being funded in order to pray at a game. The prayer is just that individuals religious expression. Lastly, you said in another thread you are not against people's freedom to pray. But, you also said "Let our public schools teach the Constitution -- and keep your religion in your churches and your homes where it belongs!" That means you are against people's freedom to pray and want to control where and when people can pray! I would say your Constitutional understanding of this issue is incorrect and displays ignorance of the spirit and context of the law.
Clare
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:23 pm
Affiliation: Catholic

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:01 pm

When a teacher prays with his/her class, that is an automatic infusion of his/her religious beliefs on that class and this is the same case for a stadium full of people. That coach or teacher represents the government in the case of a public school, so this puts it squarely in violation of church/state regulations.

The test of this is whether a mostly Christian population would tolerate a Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu who opens a game with a prayer or a coach who initiates a prayer at practices. This is an expression if his religious beliefs, but as a public school representative, he is forcing his beliefs on his students, who can't simply leave the practice. Christians would not tolerate this, and they shouldn't tolerate it any more than an atheist should. This form of religious infringement is unnecessary and offensive so why do it? The only reason left is because you just enjoy forcing people to bend to your will.

Taxes fall under the same limitations. You might object to a bridge or a welfare program, but those are not religious in nature, so basically it's just tough luck for you.
User avatar
Patrick Star
resident
resident
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:54 pm
Affiliation: undisclosed

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Clare » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:31 pm

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:A high school coach or anyone leading a prayer whether on a loudspeaker or in a huddle for example isn't pushing the supremacy of a particular religion on behalf of the Government. He or she is an individual expressing their own religious beliefs and anyone who wants to participate can do so and therefore express their beliefs. If Congress were to come together and try to create legislation that supports one religion over others then that would be in clear violation of the separation of Church and State. As for tax dollars, they will always go to people and programs that not everyone will agree with. But, in this case, money is being paid to an individual coaching a public school sports team. They're not being funded in order to pray at a game. The prayer is just that individuals religious expression.



When a teacher prays with his/her class, that is an automatic infusion of his/her religious beliefs on that class and this is the same case for a stadium full of people. That coach or teacher represents the government in the case of a public school, so this puts it squarely in violation of church/state regulations.

The test of this is whether a mostly Christian population would tolerate a Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu who opens a game with a prayer or a coach who initiates a prayer at practices. This is an expression if his religious beliefs, but as a public school representative, he is forcing his beliefs on his students, who can't simply leave the practice. Christians would not tolerate this, and they shouldn't tolerate it any more than an atheist should. This form of religious infringement is unnecessary and offensive so why do it? The only reason left is because you just enjoy forcing people to bend to your will.

Taxes fall under the same limitations. You might object to a bridge or a welfare program, but those are not religious in nature, so basically it's just tough luck for you.


In another thread, you recently said religious representatives of all religions in the community, including an atheist, should be allowed to do an invocation at sporting events. If you can sit through and hear an hour of prayers from all religions in the community then reading all your quibbles with public prayer at certain places and our bickering for the most part up until now was unquestionably fruitless. You have thrown out every possible excuse you could think of to be reason enough to prohibit public prayer at a sporting event whether it made sense or not all in order to cancel out your previous reasons with one suggestion that invalidates it all.
Clare
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:23 pm
Affiliation: Catholic

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:12 pm

Clare wrote:In another thread, you recently said religious representatives of all religions in the community, including an atheist, should be allowed to do an invocation at sporting events. If you can sit through and hear an hour of prayers from all religions in the community then reading all your quibbles with public prayer at certain places and our bickering for the most part up until now was unquestionably fruitless. You have thrown out every possible excuse you could think of to be reason enough to prohibit public prayer at a sporting event whether it made sense or not all in order to cancel out your previous reasons with one suggestion that invalidates it all.


All of them makes sense whether you agree with them or not. The bottom line is that these public prayers are unnecessary and are an obtrusion on people who aren't interested in religion when they attend a high school sporting event. Every reason I've seen promoted here and elsewhere are valid reasons why people like me aren't interested and should not be forced to endure it. The expectation that this is something that Christians just like to do and everyone else should just learn to live with it is unreasonable and a product of privileges that you have grown up to expect. If I attend your church, I expect to be exposed to prayers and sermons and even if I don't care to hear it, I'll be respectful and sit there with my mouth shut. But when I'm not at your church, there's no reason that I should have to even hear it. As KTR pointed out, Christians can pray all over the place in groups as large as they want, but when they engage the loud speakers and ask everyone to take a moment for a prayer, that is a very different thing. They are effectively taking over the proceedings and making it into a religious experience. When you attend public events and an atheist quiets the crowd and announces that we will hear a public address about how religion is all about an imaginary man in the sky, then you will understand why this is important. Until then you probably won't understand.
User avatar
Patrick Star
resident
resident
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:54 pm
Affiliation: undisclosed

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby humanguy » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:51 pm

Is this really such a problem? How many of us are making plans to spend a big night out at a high school sporting event? What's next, complaining about the food served at a six-year-old's birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese?
Most of us, just about all of us, have the capacity to be rock and rolled by a feeling of pure ecstatic raw joy. You do, don't you? We should respect each other for that.
User avatar
humanguy
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3870
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:50 pm
Location: Lumpen Post-Industrial District
Affiliation: Human

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Clare » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:15 pm

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:In another thread, you recently said religious representatives of all religions in the community, including an atheist, should be allowed to do an invocation at sporting events. If you can sit through and hear an hour of prayers from all religions in the community then reading all your quibbles with public prayer at certain places and our bickering for the most part up until now was unquestionably fruitless. You have thrown out every possible excuse you could think of to be reason enough to prohibit public prayer at a sporting event whether it made sense or not all in order to cancel out your previous reasons with one suggestion that invalidates it all.


All of them makes sense whether you agree with them or not. The bottom line is that these public prayers are unnecessary and are an obtrusion on people who aren't interested in religion when they attend a high school sporting event. Every reason I've seen promoted here and elsewhere are valid reasons why people like me aren't interested and should not be forced to endure it. The expectation that this is something that Christians just like to do and everyone else should just learn to live with it is unreasonable and a product of privileges that you have grown up to expect. If I attend your church, I expect to be exposed to prayers and sermons and even if I don't care to hear it, I'll be respectful and sit there with my mouth shut. But when I'm not at your church, there's no reason that I should have to even hear it. As KTR pointed out, Christians can pray all over the place in groups as large as they want, but when they engage the loud speakers and ask everyone to take a moment for a prayer, that is a very different thing. They are effectively taking over the proceedings and making it into a religious experience. When you attend public events and an atheist quiets the crowd and announces that we will hear a public address about how religion is all about an imaginary man in the sky, then you will understand why this is important. Until then you probably won't understand.


All the reasons I've heard for why pre-game prayer should be disallowed are non-sensical.

When someone leads a pre-game prayer anyone who wants to join in is free to do so whether silently or out loud and those don't want to participate don't have to. If some people can't manage themselves during a couple min pre-game prayer then that is their personal issue. Unless those against pre-game prayer are being threatened or coerced into taking part in or having to listen to pre-game prayer then they are not being forced. They have a choice.

As for you, again, you recently said religious representatives of all religions in the community, including an atheist, should be allowed to do an invocation at sporting events. If you can sit through and hear an hour of prayers from all religions in the community then reading all your quibbles with a couple minute pre-game prayer at a sports event and our bickering for the most part up until that suggestion of your was unquestionably fruitless. Unless you retract that suggestion then you have no reason to further argue against pre-game prayer.
Clare
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:23 pm
Affiliation: Catholic

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Simplyme » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:23 am

humanguy wrote:Is this really such a problem? How many of us are making plans to spend a big night out at a high school sporting event? What's next, complaining about the food served at a six-year-old's birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese?



Seems like KTR's words on another post of your applies here to:

(Allow me to speculate: You don't misunderstand it at all-- but you have some weird little agenda to take atheists to task for challenging the religious claims out there. You do it almost every time you pop your head up here).


KTR, hope you are not offended that I quoted you? It seems to apply to his comment here to.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
Simplyme
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 5944
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:11 am

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Particles » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:38 am

humanguy wrote:Is this really such a problem? How many of us are making plans to spend a big night out at a high school sporting event? What's next, complaining about the food served at a six-year-old's birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese?


The students don't have a choice.
Particles
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 2084
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:47 pm
Location: USA
Affiliation: Gnostic atheist

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:38 am

humanguy wrote:Is this really such a problem? How many of us are making plans to spend a big night out at a high school sporting event? What's next, complaining about the food served at a six-year-old's birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese?


Parents do this every week when their kids are playing or in the band or cheerleading. Football stadiums all across the country are filled to capacity every Friday night. What planet do you live on?

It's fine if it doesn't bother you, but the point is that it does both some people and there's no reason for this to be the case. My kids go to public school and there is no prayer announced during the game. Every Christian in that stadium gets along fine and I imagine they do some form of praying sometime around the game. Everything works out great and there's no need to add a stadium-encompassing prayer.
User avatar
Patrick Star
resident
resident
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:54 pm
Affiliation: undisclosed

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Clare » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:43 am

All the reasons I've heard for why pre-game prayer should be disallowed are non-sensical.

When someone leads a pre-game prayer anyone who wants to join in is free to do so whether silently or out loud and those don't want to participate don't have to. If some people can't manage themselves during a couple min pre-game prayer then that is their personal issue. Unless those against pre-game prayer are being threatened or coerced into taking part in or having to listen to pre-game prayer then they are not being forced. They have a choice.

As for you Patrick, you recently said religious representatives of all religions in the community, including an atheist, should be allowed to do an invocation at sporting events. If you can sit through and hear an hour of prayers from all religions in the community then reading all your quibbles with a couple minute pre-game prayer at a sports event and our bickering for the most part up until that suggestion of your was unquestionably fruitless. Do you retract that suggestion? If not, then you have no reason to further argue against pre-game prayer.
Clare
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:23 pm
Affiliation: Catholic

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:24 pm

Clare wrote:All the reasons I've heard for why pre-game prayer should be disallowed are non-sensical.


They may not make sense to you, but only because of your Christian-bias. They make perfect sense to a non-Christian who doesn't want to be unnecessarily inconvenienced by a religion when they didn't ask for it.

When someone leads a pre-game prayer anyone who wants to join in is free to do so whether silently or out loud and those don't want to participate don't have to. If some people can't manage themselves during a couple min pre-game prayer then that is their personal issue. Unless those against pre-game prayer are being threatened or coerced into taking part in or having to listen to pre-game prayer then they are not being forced. They have a choice.


This is just continued justification for this unwanted behavior. You can say all day that anyone who doesn't agree with it can stop up their ears or not listen or, but it doesn't change the fact that your are purposely inconveniencing them in a public space when this behavior has no clear advantage to the Christian and when the Christian has ample opportunity to take part in these activities WITHOUT inconveniencing others. The idea behind this is simple, treat others how you would like to be treated. I wouldn't like to be put upon in this way and I wouldn't think to do this to other people who didn't want it either. It is just about choice; Christians have a choice of whether to treat other people with dignity and not burden them with their religiosity or to be religious bullies and do it with no regard to the feelings of those other people. Clearly, you choose the latter.

As for you, again, you recently said religious representatives of all religions in the community, including an atheist, should be allowed to do an invocation at sporting events. If you can sit through and hear an hour of prayers from all religions in the community then reading all your quibbles with a couple minute pre-game prayer at a sports event and our bickering for the most part up until that suggestion of your was unquestionably fruitless. Unless you retract that suggestion then you have no reason to further argue against pre-game prayer.


Retract? Why would I do that? That's idiocy. If you want to be fair about it, which is what I was saying, then the only truly fair thing to do would be to do just as I said, allow every single religious representative to give a prayer in their way, including atheists. I don't want to sit through that and I doubt other people do either. That's the point I was making; its fundamentally unworkable to even be fair about it. Actually, you could take turns with each representative at different games, but then it might take years to get through all the different religions because there just aren't that many football games in a season. So the entire proposition was never meant to be a serious proposal; it's just unworkable, and therefore its further reason to avoid the whole mess and just do your praying somewhere else. It isn't needed at the game; the game isn't a religious event; you can't be fair to all people and you will undoubtedly offend some, so just avoid it altogether, which is what most districts have rightly done, thank goodness. But I'm sure you will continue with your meaningless babbling. When I see an entire stadium of Christians and a Hindu priest is praying before the game across the loud speaker, that's when I'll know that there's some consideration for what I'm saying.

To be honest, I'm not too happy about these military salutes that we see at a lot of games either. I find them overly nationalistic and frankly they smack of conditioning the public to support our military no matter what they might be up to in the world. I tolerate them for the most part because I know individuals who are or have been military and of course the military isn't a religious institution, but I would prefer they not happen at all except on the specific days set aside for honoring those who have served, such as Veterans day and Memorial day. At least those days are intended to show gratitude for individuals who sacrificed for their country and not just make the military into a spectacle, which is what some of these military days turn out to be at games, and at a high expense to boot, so the government is spending our taxes to tell us how much we should love the military. Not good IMHO.
User avatar
Patrick Star
resident
resident
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:54 pm
Affiliation: undisclosed

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby humanguy » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:39 pm

Particles wrote:
humanguy wrote:Is this really such a problem? How many of us are making plans to spend a big night out at a high school sporting event? What's next, complaining about the food served at a six-year-old's birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese?


The students don't have a choice.


High school students rarely do, I guess. I'm sure they'll pull through alright.
Most of us, just about all of us, have the capacity to be rock and rolled by a feeling of pure ecstatic raw joy. You do, don't you? We should respect each other for that.
User avatar
humanguy
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3870
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:50 pm
Location: Lumpen Post-Industrial District
Affiliation: Human

Next

Return to Politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron