Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:50 pm

humanguy wrote:
Particles wrote:The students don't have a choice.


High school students rarely do, I guess. I'm sure they'll pull through alright.


Would you favor re-instituting teacher led prayer in (public school) classrooms? How is it any different?
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Particles » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:09 pm

humanguy wrote:
Particles wrote:
humanguy wrote:Is this really such a problem? How many of us are making plans to spend a big night out at a high school sporting event? What's next, complaining about the food served at a six-year-old's birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese?


The students don't have a choice.


High school students rarely do, I guess. I'm sure they'll pull through alright.


So, it's fair game to do whatever anybody wants to students, as long as you feel they pull through? You should then also say no big deal if a coach were to have their players at each game recite that there is no god and Christianity is a lie, but based on your past here, you won't because of your double standard coddling of religion. And if you did say that, it would be just as nutty as the prior case.

HG, I forgot how worthless it is to talk to you. Goodbye.
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby humanguy » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:52 pm

Particles wrote:
humanguy wrote:
So, it's fair game to do whatever anybody wants to students, as long as you feel they pull through? You should then also say no big deal if a coach were to have their players at each game recite that there is no god and Christianity is a lie, but based on your past here, you won't because of your double standard coddling of religion. And if you did say that, it would be just as nutty as the prior case.

HG, I forgot how worthless it is to talk to you. Goodbye.


Particles. Where did I say that it's fair game to do whatever anybody wants to students as long as they pull through? I don't agree with that at all.

I'm sorry you think it's worthless to talk to me. I sure don't mean to upset anyone, and if I have then I apologize. But quite often the impression I get here is that I'm considered a traitor to atheism because I have the audacity to try, to just try in my own fumbling way, to see things from both sides.
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Clare » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:07 pm

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:All the reasons I've heard for why pre-game prayer should be disallowed are non-sensical.


They may not make sense to you, but only because of your Christian-bias. They make perfect sense to a non-Christian who doesn't want to be unnecessarily inconvenienced by a religion when they didn't ask for it.


I'm not bias because I wouldn't be against any form of prayer at a sports event and if I was at a sports events where pregame prayer is absent I wouldn't be against that either. What bothers me is the idea of people taking prayer away in a situation that has very little to do with them for non-sensical reasons for the sake of being hyper sensitive. Now, you say "purposefully inconvenienced"? You've also been saying you and others are being forced, bullied and peer pressured? How about you just stick with "inconvenienced", since because that's the most accurate term you've used so far.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:When someone leads a pre-game prayer anyone who wants to join in is free to do so whether silently or out loud and those don't want to participate don't have to. If some people can't manage themselves during a couple min pre-game prayer then that is their personal issue. Unless those against pre-game prayer are being threatened or coerced into taking part in or having to listen to pre-game prayer then they are not being forced. They have a choice.


This is just continued justification for this unwanted behavior. You can say all day that anyone who doesn't agree with it can stop up their ears or not listen or, but it doesn't change the fact that your are purposely inconveniencing them in a public space when this behavior has no clear advantage to the Christian and when the Christian has ample opportunity to take part in these activities WITHOUT inconveniencing others. The idea behind this is simple, treat others how you would like to be treated. I wouldn't like to be put upon in this way and I wouldn't think to do this to other people who didn't want it either. It is just about choice; Christians have a choice of whether to treat other people with dignity and not burden them with their religiosity or to be religious bullies and do it with no regard to the feelings of those other people. Clearly, you choose the latter.


You repeatedly keep saying you and others are being forced. I explained what it actually means to be forced into something.

Now, should people be allowed to stop gay pride parades because it inconveniences those who disagree with promoting homosexuality and blocks traffic? Also, you think every time a person leads a pregame prayer it's done out to purposefully inconvenience, force, bully and peer pressure you and other non-religious people? Do you have any idea how narcissistic and oversensitive you and anyone else with the same views on this look? You've also said that you think public prayer in general is a subtle form of marketing/publicity for Christians as well? If someone wants to use prayer for marketing and publicity then that's what they're going to attempt. But, for anyone to say or think all people who pray in public are doing so for that reason? Well, good luck proving that! Anyway, the pregame prayer is usually related to the players about to go on the field and whatever else the person leading the prayer feels like adding.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:As for you, again, you recently said religious representatives of all religions in the community, including an atheist, should be allowed to do an invocation at sporting events. If you can sit through and hear an hour of prayers from all religions in the community then reading all your quibbles with a couple minute pre-game prayer at a sports event and our bickering for the most part up until that suggestion of your was unquestionably fruitless. Unless you retract that suggestion then you have no reason to further argue against pre-game prayer.


Retract? Why would I do that? That's idiocy. If you want to be fair about it, which is what I was saying, then the only truly fair thing to do would be to do just as I said, allow every single religious representative to give a prayer in their way, including atheists. I don't want to sit through that and I doubt other people do either. That's the point I was making; its fundamentally unworkable to even be fair about it. Actually, you could take turns with each representative at different games, but then it might take years to get through all the different religions because there just aren't that many football games in a season. So the entire proposition was never meant to be a serious proposal; it's just unworkable, and therefore its further reason to avoid the whole mess and just do your praying somewhere else. It isn't needed at the game; the game isn't a religious event; you can't be fair to all people and you will undoubtedly offend some, so just avoid it altogether, which is what most districts have rightly done, thank goodness. But I'm sure you will continue with your meaningless babbling. When I see an entire stadium of Christians and a Hindu priest is praying before the game across the loud speaker, that's when I'll know that there's some consideration for what I'm saying.


Below is what you said word for word. (Underlining, bolding and font size increase were of my doing.)

Patrick Star wrote:Here's my suggestion if public prayer at football games is an absolute must. You must be diverse about it. You must allow different religious representatives to do an invocation at each game, including an atheist. So, I suppose we'll need to begin games about an hour later to accommodate all of these prayers because it's going to last a while. The length of each will be 3 minutes max and every religion in the community must be allowed an opportunity. That's only fair.


In that post, you did not make it clear that proposition was something to not be taken seriously. You submitted that post on Jan 02, 2016 4:50 pm. I've brought that post to your attention on that day and several times since then, even yesterday and today, and it wasn't until today on Jan 26, 2016 12:24 pm that you replied to me about it. Either you failed to clarify yourself initially and just missed or forgot to reply to me every time I brought it up or you intentionally ignored the issue every time and finally backtracked today. Either way, whether or not that proposal of yours ever comes to pass is irrelevant. You gave a suggestion that you would support which invalidates every argument you made against pregame prayer.

Patrick Star wrote:To be honest, I'm not too happy about these military salutes that we see at a lot of games either. I find them overly nationalistic and frankly they smack of conditioning the public to support our military no matter what they might be up to in the world. I tolerate them for the most part because I know individuals who are or have been military and of course the military isn't a religious institution, but I would prefer they not happen at all except on the specific days set aside for honoring those who have served, such as Veterans day and Memorial day. At least those days are intended to show gratitude for individuals who sacrificed for their country and not just make the military into a spectacle, which is what some of these military days turn out to be at games, and at a high expense to boot, so the government is spending our taxes to tell us how much we should love the military. Not good IMHO.


So, how is it any different? You're not as against it because you know individuals who are or have been in the military? And, praying at a sports event does not institutionalize religion. It's the expression of faith by individuals who happen to be watching or participating in the sports event which is their right.
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:12 pm

humanguy wrote:I'm sorry you think it's worthless to talk to me. I sure don't mean to upset anyone, and if I have then I apologize. But quite often the impression I get here is that I'm considered a traitor to atheism because I have the audacity to try, to just try in my own fumbling way, to see things from both sides.


You don't try to see things from both sides. I'm not the only one who sees it, obviously. You like to get mad at me calling you out on it (where with others you're apologetic) but maybe when multiple people say things to you that gel, it's time to take a look at what they're saying and what you're doing.

You consistently call atheists to task for fighting for their right not to be endlessly preached at by theists every-fucking-where they go. In this case, it's literally against the law but instead of saying, "Yep, those theists are breaking the law", your answer is, "Oh, I'm sure the students will weather it."

No, Jay, they shouldn't have to "pull through" illegal coercion. And anyone who doesn't recognize that has a broken moral compass.
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby humanguy » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:16 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:
humanguy wrote:I'm sorry you think it's worthless to talk to me. I sure don't mean to upset anyone, and if I have then I apologize. But quite often the impression I get here is that I'm considered a traitor to atheism because I have the audacity to try, to just try in my own fumbling way, to see things from both sides.


You don't try to see things from both sides. I'm not the only one who sees it, obviously. You like to get mad at me calling you out on it (where with others you're apologetic) but maybe when multiple people say things to you that gel, it's time to take a look at what they're saying and what you're doing.

You consistently call atheists to task for fighting for their right right not to be endlessly preached at by theists. In this case, it's literally against the law but instead of saying, "Yep, those theists are breaking the law", your answer is, "Oh, I'm sure the students will weather it."

No, that Jay, they shouldn't have to "pull through" illegal coercion. And anyone who doesn't recognize that has a broken moral compass.


Okay, George, I have a broken moral compass. Anything else?
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Clare » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:22 pm

humanguy wrote:But quite often the impression I get here is that I'm considered a traitor to atheism because I have the audacity to try, to just try in my own fumbling way, to see things from both sides.


I've noticed certain people here see you as a traitor too but I don't. I've seen you try to see things from both sides and call out and defend people from both sides. Good way to be. People like KTR should learn from people like you.
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby humanguy » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:36 pm

Clare wrote:
humanguy wrote:But quite often the impression I get here is that I'm considered a traitor to atheism because I have the audacity to try, to just try in my own fumbling way, to see things from both sides.


I've noticed certain people here see you as a traitor too but I don't. I've seen you try to see things from both sides and call out and defend people from both sides. Good way to be. People like KTR should learn from people like you.


That's nice of you, Clare, thank you.
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Clare » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:44 pm

humanguy wrote:
Clare wrote:
humanguy wrote:But quite often the impression I get here is that I'm considered a traitor to atheism because I have the audacity to try, to just try in my own fumbling way, to see things from both sides.


I've noticed certain people here see you as a traitor too but I don't. I've seen you try to see things from both sides and call out and defend people from both sides. Good way to be. People like KTR should learn from people like you.


That's nice of you, Clare, thank you.


Well, I admire and appreciate people who like you don't have tunnel vision. When I read what untruths KTR was saying I just couldn't not say anything. So, you're welcome. Let's see if any Christians start calling me a traitor :P
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:44 pm

Clare wrote:I'm not bias because I wouldn't be against any form of prayer at a sports event and if I was at a sports events where pregame prayer is absent I wouldn't be against that either.


That's fine if prayer of any kind doesn't bother you but I feel that it is inappropriate and a burden on those of us who don't want it pushed on us. That's just how I feel and no amount of argument from you is going to change that. It might not make sense to you, but you are not me so you clearly don't understand where I'm coming from. But I would think that you might find it important to be considerate of others, but maybe that's just asking too much.

What bothers me is the idea of people taking prayer away in a situation that has very little to do with them for non-sensical reasons for the sake of being hyper sensitive.


The thing is, I see it in a completely different way. I see this as not "taking something away" but rather putting things in their proper space. The event is a football game. It's a paid event, so most everyone who showed up came because of the game, except for the students who are required to attend and represent their school. It isn't a religious event, so there's no reason to involve religion in it at all. Sans religion, the entire event can occur exactly as it is supposed to and in fact they do all over the place. As I said, they don't do that where I live. It's also inappropriate because for the students, it is a required event, just as school is. A principle leading a class or the entire school in a prayer over the loud speaker is not only inappropriate but illegal. The game is just an extension of the school and quite often these are held on school property. So, these reasons are quite solid and reasonable.

You know, if anyone's being "hyper" about this, it appears to be you. You appear to be hyper-obsessed with how I feel about this. All I've done is express my opinion and provided some reasons why I feel this way, but you just keep throwing out all sorts of bizarre arguments in an attempt, I suppose, to change my mind. In the grand scheme of things, I don't actually have much say in this practice at all. I could write a letter or speak at a city council meeting, but mine is the minority opinion so the majority could just choose to ignore me if they want. You, however, have this strange obsession where you seem to be offended that someone even has an opinion that differs from you.

Now, you say "purposefully inconvenienced"? You've also been saying you and others are being forced, bullied and peer pressured? How about you just stick with "inconvenienced", since because that's the most accurate term you've used so far.


I'll use whatever term I choose that I believe best represents how I feel, thanks very much. Sorry, but you have no say in that.

You repeatedly keep saying you and others are being forced. I explained what it actually means to be forced into something.


You may have explained how you feel about it, but I don't agree. To me it feels that I'm being forced into it and my only way to avoid it is to remove myself from the event itself. I just don't find this to be an appropriate situation.

Now, should people be allowed to stop gay pride parades because it inconveniences those who disagree with promoting homosexuality and blocks traffic?


If the demonstration is happening in an event that the people paid to get into, then I think they've got a reasonable complaint. But most parades are held on the street and there is this little thing called the Constitution that protects free speech there. Most places also have ordinances and permits for parades so people are generally aware ahead of time when one is about to commence, so there's no reason to even be near it if you don't want to; it's not like you're about to watch a football game that you paid to see. I've seen my share of prayers and preachers out in the public. The difference is that they were not on a loud speaker and it wasn't a venue I paid to get into to watch a different event. I actually don't have anything against public prayer or preaching; it's a protected form of speech. But I don't want someone to take advantage of a situation and force me into it either, especially when they have so much opportunity to do it in a place and time that doesn't include people who don't want to be involved with it. And also, I could apply for a permit to have an Atheist parade to counter a Christian parade if I wanted to. I couldn't get a spot to give an atheist invocation at a football game because Christians just wouldn't allow it in places where this is practiced. So, if you can't fathom this, that's fine with me because I'm not asking you to agree; I'm just telling you how I feel about it.

Also, you think every time a person leads a pregame prayer it's done out to purposefully inconvenience, force, bully and peer pressure you and other non-religious people?


Not necessarily. If they are doing it with the awareness that not everyone cares to listen to that, it leaves me with the impression that they are doing it out of spite. They could easily be more considerate if they chose to.

Do you have any idea how narcissistic and oversensitive you and anyone else with the same views on this look?


There's no narcissism going on here. Narcissism is about self-absorption, self-admiration, egotism. I'm not displaying any of that. You are just looking for ways to vilify me because you dislike my opinions. If anything that's what the Christians are doing who insist on this form of public prayer. I'm just asking a religious person to be considerate of others. You can say I'm being oversensitive if you want; I don't think so. I think I'm being very reasonable and I don't think it's that much to ask that Christians not take over a stadium with their prayers when they have plenty of other opportunities to do it. The video KTR posted is a great example of Christians being more considerate.

You've also said that you think public prayer in general is a subtle form of marketing/publicity for Christians as well? If someone wants to use prayer for marketing and publicity then that's what they're going to attempt. But, for anyone to say or think all people who pray in public are doing so for that reason? Well, good luck proving that!


I think this particular form of public prayer is a type of marketing and publicity because there is a diverse population in attendance and they know full well that some of the people in the stadium aren't Christians or they may be but they don't attend church, so this is an easy way to reach out to them. I don't have to prove anything; I'm expressing how I see this. It's called my opinion and it's not something you are able to change just because you don't like it.

Anyway, the pregame prayer is usually related to the players about to go on the field and whatever else the person leading the prayer feels like adding.


Well you just left that wide open. "Anything else the person feels like adding"? So that means he could launch into a fire and brimstone sermon about the Revelation! Actually, if these prayers were kept strictly to wishes that the players be kept safe from harm and perform with good sportsmanship and so forth then I probably wouldn't mind. But inevitably it becomes more than that, and that's where it just offends me to have to listen to that stuff. And by the way, you don't get to determine what offends someone else.

Below is what you said word for word. (Underlining, bolding and font size increase were of my doing.)

Patrick Star wrote:Here's my suggestion if public prayer at football games is an absolute must. You must be diverse about it. You must allow different religious representatives to do an invocation at each game, including an atheist. So, I suppose we'll need to begin games about an hour later to accommodate all of these prayers because it's going to last a while. The length of each will be 3 minutes max and every religion in the community must be allowed an opportunity. That's only fair.


In that post, you did not make it clear that proposition was something to not be taken seriously. You submitted that post on Jan 02, 2016 4:50 pm. I've brought that post to your attention on that day and several times since then, even yesterday and today, and it wasn't until today on Jan 26, 2016 12:24 pm that you replied to me about it. Either you failed to clarify yourself initially and just missed or forgot to reply to me every time I brought it up or you intentionally ignored the issue every time and finally backtracked today. Either way, whether or not that proposal of yours ever comes to pass is irrelevant. You gave a suggestion that you would support which invalidates every argument you made against pregame prayer.


What the hell do you think you are, the forum hall monitor? I'm telling you now that I don't ever expect that to happen and I didn't then either; it's a preposterous proposition and I would expect any semi-intelligent hominid to know that. And it invalidates nothing. Look, you, I explained why I don't care for these type of public prayers. I don't care if you don't agree with me. If you offered any kind of understanding it might help, but all you have really said is that I shouldn't be bothered by it or I should just go out of my way to avoid it. So, here's my answer to your ridiculous suggestions. NO and NO! Thanks a lot.

By the way, I am free to ignore any comment you make. I'll PUT you on ignore if you keep acting this way. You seem to be under some kind of warped impression that you can badger others until they change their opinions. Sorry, life doesn't work that way. You are free to make your case, but if I don't agree then there's really nothing you can do about it but cry.

So, how is it any different? You're not as against it because you know individuals who are or have been in the military? And, praying at a sports event does not institutionalize religion. It's the expression of faith by individuals who happen to be watching or participating in the sports event which is their right.


I don't care for the prayers because its a religious practice that I don't want to be a part of and I don't want to go out of my way at an event where I bought a ticket, just to avoid it. The military thing is not about religion so I don't feel offended by it; I just find them to be too nationalistic for my taste.

Actually, that thing about it being their "right" is questionable. As I mentioned earlier, because these are public school events, the same rules apply as in school itself, so that's why it has been stopped in most areas. I think in some areas it might persist but I haven't seen it in a while.
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:51 pm

Clare wrote:Well, I admire and appreciate people who like you don't have tunnel vision. When I read what untruths KTR was saying I just couldn't not say anything. So, you're welcome. Let's see if any Christians start calling me a traitor :P


You "couldn't" or "wouldn't"?
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Clare » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:51 pm

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:I'm not bias because I wouldn't be against any form of prayer at a sports event and if I was at a sports events where pregame prayer is absent I wouldn't be against that either.


That's fine if prayer of any kind doesn't bother you but I feel that it is inappropriate and a burden on those of us who don't want it pushed on us. That's just how I feel and no amount of argument from you is going to change that. It might not make sense to you, but you are not me so you clearly don't understand where I'm coming from. But I would think that you might find it important to be considerate of others, but maybe that's just asking too much.


People exercising their right to practice their beliefs whether publicly or privately in itself is not inconsideration of others. You don't understand the difference between being intentionally inconsiderate and practicing beliefs around others who are intolerant of those beliefs.

Let's take a forum strictly for non-religious people. A religious person signs up and starts posting about religious matters knowing that isn't allowed.

That is an example of a person showing deliberate inconsideration for the non-religious people there.

2. Let's take a sports event where pregame prayer and people of all races, sex and beliefs are allowed and there's thousands of people in the stadium. A religious person leads a prayer across the loudspeaker and invites anyone who wishes to partake.

That is an example of people expressing their religious beliefs in a place open to all.

In both examples, the religious person/people know or suspect there's bound to be others who disagree with them but the difference is in example 1 the forum is a place strictly for non-religious people and the entire reason for the religious person to post there is to make the non-believers read it.

So, hopefully, that helps.

Anyone who is so intolerant of religion will not appreciate any display of it and will take it as a personal attack. We live in a world where people are going to do things that others don't believe in or like. No one can please everyone. None of us are ever going to see everyone in the world agree on everything or even one thing. So, you and others can complain about pregame prayer and/or attempt to see it disallowed at sport events all you want if something like a couple min prayer is just that unbearable for you guys. You're not going to get your way with everything just like I won't or anyone else for that matter.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:What bothers me is the idea of people taking prayer away in a situation that has very little to do with them for non-sensical reasons for the sake of being hyper sensitive.


The thing is, I see it in a completely different way. I see this as not "taking something away" but rather putting things in their proper space. The event is a football game. It's a paid event, so most everyone who showed up came because of the game, except for the students who are required to attend and represent their school. It isn't a religious event, so there's no reason to involve religion in it at all. Sans religion, the entire event can occur exactly as it is supposed to and in fact they do all over the place. As I said, they don't do that where I live. It's also inappropriate because for the students, it is a required event, just as school is. A principle leading a class or the entire school in a prayer over the loud speaker is not only inappropriate but illegal. The game is just an extension of the school and quite often these are held on school property. So, these reasons are quite solid and reasonable.


Most religious people don't see religion as having their own proper place. They live out their religion outside their Church, Mosque, home and so on. That is their right and when people attempt to remove that ability, even at a sports event, they are attempting to take that right away. And, a prayer alone is not a religious event. It's a religious practice. A religious event is Baptism, Confirmation, First Holy Communion, and so on.

Apart from thinking a pregame prayer is purposefully inconsiderate, forced, bullish and causes peer pressure you say it's illegal. Separation of Church and State is meant to keep the Government from acting in an official capacity to either promote or restrict religious beliefs. If Congress were to come together and try to create legislation that supports one religion over others then that would be in clear violation of the separation of Church and State.

Patrick Star wrote:You know, if anyone's being "hyper" about this, it appears to be you. You appear to be hyper-obsessed with how I feel about this. All I've done is express my opinion and provided some reasons why I feel this way, but you just keep throwing out all sorts of bizarre arguments in an attempt, I suppose, to change my mind. In the grand scheme of things, I don't actually have much say in this practice at all. I could write a letter or speak at a city council meeting, but mine is the minority opinion so the majority could just choose to ignore me if they want. You, however, have this strange obsession where you seem to be offended that someone even has an opinion that differs from you.


We're on a debate forum?...

Aaand, I don't know where you got the impression I'm offended that you have a different opinion? Do you think because I don't agree and state why that somehow that makes me offended? I'm just expressing my views and sharing my reasons for them just as you are. Lastly, with these strong views you have you should write a letter or speak to your city council if it really matters. Otherwise, it looks likes you don't care as much as you appear to.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Now, you say "purposefully inconvenienced"? You've also been saying you and others are being forced, bullied and peer pressured? How about you just stick with "inconvenienced", since because that's the most accurate term you've used so far.


I'll use whatever term I choose that I believe best represents how I feel, thanks very much. Sorry, but you have no say in that.


You have and will continue to. I was just saying the term "inconvenienced" is the most accurate out of all you've used.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:You repeatedly keep saying you and others are being forced. I explained what it actually means to be forced into something.


You may have explained how you feel about it, but I don't agree. To me it feels that I'm being forced into it and my only way to avoid it is to remove myself from the event itself. I just don't find this to be an appropriate situation.


Unless those against pregame prayer are being threatened or coerced into taking part in or having to listen to pregame prayer then they are not being forced. They have a choice. If someone is making you do something involuntarily then you're not being forced.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Now, should people be allowed to stop gay pride parades because it inconveniences those who disagree with promoting homosexuality and blocks traffic?


If the demonstration is happening in an event that the people paid to get into, then I think they've got a reasonable complaint. But most parades are held on the street and there is this little thing called the Constitution that protects free speech there. Most places also have ordinances and permits for parades so people are generally aware ahead of time when one is about to commence, so there's no reason to even be near it if you don't want to; it's not like you're about to watch a football game that you paid to see. I've seen my share of prayers and preachers out in the public. The difference is that they were not on a loud speaker and it wasn't a venue I paid to get into to watch a different event. I actually don't have anything against public prayer or preaching; it's a protected form of speech. But I don't want someone to take advantage of a situation and force me into it either, especially when they have so much opportunity to do it in a place and time that doesn't include people who don't want to be involved with it. And also, I could apply for a permit to have an Atheist parade to counter a Christian parade if I wanted to. I couldn't get a spot to give an atheist invocation at a football game because Christians just wouldn't allow it in places where this is practiced. So, if you can't fathom this, that's fine with me because I'm not asking you to agree; I'm just telling you how I feel about it.


Obviously, the two scenarios are different. I was already aware of this. But, my point seems to have alluded you. It's unreasonable to expect everyone else in the world to stop expressing themselves in a harmless fashion because others choose to be offended and make a big deal out of something that has no affect on them.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Also, you think every time a person leads a pregame prayer it's done out to purposefully inconvenience, force, bully and peer pressure you and other non-religious people? Do you have any idea how narcissistic and oversensitive you and anyone else with the same views on this look?


Not necessarily. If they are doing it with the awareness that not everyone cares to listen to that, it leaves me with the impression that they are doing it out of spite. They could easily be more considerate if they chose to.

There's no narcissism going on here. Narcissism is about self-absorption, self-admiration, egotism. I'm not displaying any of that. You are just looking for ways to vilify me because you dislike my opinions.


Getting the impression they are doing it out of spite? You've been saying as if it's a fact that the person who leads a pregame prayer at a sports event purposely does it to be inconsiderate. You also said as if fact that you're being forced, bullied and peer pressured.

And, well, when you think that people praying around you in public would have any reason to have you or those like you on their mind then that is egotistical. At a sports event, the prayer has a purpose and you have nothing to do with that unless the prayer is about you.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:You've also said that you think public prayer in general is a subtle form of marketing/publicity for Christians as well? If someone wants to use prayer for marketing and publicity then that's what they're going to attempt. But, for anyone to say or think all people who pray in public are doing so for that reason? Well, good luck proving that!


I think this particular form of public prayer is a type of marketing and publicity because there is a diverse population in attendance and they know full well that some of the people in the stadium aren't Christians or they may be but they don't attend church, so this is an easy way to reach out to them. I don't have to prove anything; I'm expressing how I see this. It's called my opinion and it's not something you are able to change just because you don't like it.


I'm not going to say that never happens but for anyone to automatically assume that's the case every time is once again egotistical.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Anyway, the pregame prayer is usually related to the players about to go on the field and whatever else the person leading the prayer feels like adding.


Well you just left that wide open. "Anything else the person feels like adding"? So that means he could launch into a fire and brimstone sermon about the Revelation! Actually, if these prayers were kept strictly to wishes that the players be kept safe from harm and perform with good sportsmanship and so forth then I probably wouldn't mind. But inevitably it becomes more than that, and that's where it just offends me to have to listen to that stuff. And by the way, you don't get to determine what offends someone else.


Do you think the person leading the pregame prayer would be allowed to just go off on some long fire and brimstone sermon or about anything else for that matter before a game? If they add anything it probably has to be game related or something small like a prayer for troops over seas or some local problem. Also, there's a time limit on the prayer because they have to stay on schedule so it has to be brief. And, I told you before that pregame prayers are usually about the safety of the players and you definitely did not respond with letting me know you wouldn't mind that. If you ever attended a sports event where there was pregame prayer was your experience like?

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Below is what you said word for word. (Underlining, bolding and font size increase were of my doing.)

Patrick Star wrote:Here's my suggestion if public prayer at football games is an absolute must. You must be diverse about it. You must allow different religious representatives to do an invocation at each game, including an atheist. So, I suppose we'll need to begin games about an hour later to accommodate all of these prayers because it's going to last a while. The length of each will be 3 minutes max and every religion in the community must be allowed an opportunity. That's only fair.


In that post, you did not make it clear that proposition was something to not be taken seriously. You submitted that post on Jan 02, 2016 4:50 pm. I've brought that post to your attention on that day and several times since then, even yesterday and today, and it wasn't until today on Jan 26, 2016 12:24 pm that you replied to me about it. Either you failed to clarify yourself initially and just missed or forgot to reply to me every time I brought it up or you intentionally ignored the issue every time and finally backtracked today. Either way, whether or not that proposal of yours ever comes to pass is irrelevant. You gave a suggestion that you would support which invalidates every argument you made against pregame prayer.


What the hell do you think you are, the forum hall monitor? I'm telling you now that I don't ever expect that to happen and I didn't then either; it's a preposterous proposition and I would expect any semi-intelligent hominid to know that. And it invalidates nothing. Look, you, I explained why I don't care for these type of public prayers. I don't care if you don't agree with me. If you offered any kind of understanding it might help, but all you have really said is that I shouldn't be bothered by it or I should just go out of my way to avoid it. So, here's my answer to your ridiculous suggestions. NO and NO! Thanks a lot.


I was just saying I brought that suggestion of yours to your attention many times since you mentioned it and 24 days later you finally address it. And, again, the way you phrased the proposition it does look to be taken seriously. So, to me, you either failed to initially clarify that proposition was not meant to be taken seriously and just forgot to do so after every time I brought that proposition of yours to your attention. Or, your proposition was made out of seriousness and when I said it therefore invalidates every argument of yours made prior to it you ignored every time I brought it up to you because it was understandably embarrassing so then you finally backtracked today on it 24 days later.

Patrick Star wrote:By the way, I am free to ignore any comment you make. I'll PUT you on ignore if you keep acting this way. You seem to be under some kind of warped impression that you can badger others until they change their opinions. Sorry, life doesn't work that way. You are free to make your case, but if I don't agree then there's really nothing you can do about it but cry.


This is a debate forum. We're debating over pregame prayer.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:So, how is it any different? You're not as against it because you know individuals who are or have been in the military? And, praying at a sports event does not institutionalize religion. It's the expression of faith by individuals who happen to be watching or participating in the sports event which is their right.


I don't care for the prayers because its a religious practice that I don't want to be a part of and I don't want to go out of my way at an event where I bought a ticket, just to avoid it. The military thing is not about religion so I don't feel offended by it; I just find them to be too nationalistic for my taste.


Good to see that you see prayer is a religious practice and not a religious event now. Maybe you already did know the difference but just got the terms mixed up before which happens. Also, you're not part of the pregame prayer unless you're taking part by praying.

You talked about the military being recognized at sports events. You said the following:

Patrick Star wrote:I find them overly nationalistic and frankly they smack of conditioning the public to support our military no matter what they might be up to in the world. I tolerate them for the most part because I know individuals who are or have been military and of course the military isn't a religious institution, but I would prefer they not happen at all except on the specific days set aside for honoring those who have served, such as Veterans day and Memorial day.


You say a religious person leading a prayer is doing so for marketing/publicity, to be purposefully inconsiderate, forceful, bullish and peer pressuring you and all non-religious people. You say someone showing recognition to military personnel smacks of conditioning the public to support them no matter what they might be up to in the world but haven't complained about them being purposefully inconsiderate, forceful, bullish or peer pressuring those who care to not hear their spiel. You prefer neither happen unless pregame prayer was about the safety of players (which it usually is) and the military were only recognized on such days as Veterans and Memorial day. The only reason you tolerate military recognition is because you know individuals who are or have been in the military and it's not about religion. You don't tolerate pregame prayer even though you probably know someone who is or were religious and prayer is a religious practice.

Recognizing the military may not be of a religious nature but recognizing the military is a belief many people hold nonetheless. Prayer and recognition of the military are expressions of belief but because prayer is of a religious nature that is the one you are intolerant of.


Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Well, I admire and appreciate people who like you don't have tunnel vision. When I read what untruths KTR was saying I just couldn't not say anything. So, you're welcome. Let's see if any Christians start calling me a traitor :P


You "couldn't" or "wouldn't"?


I couldn't not say anything because what KTR said is untrue and untruths should be called out.
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:58 am

Clare, I'm not going to continue this ridiculous argument with you. I've already explained how I feel about it and if you don't like it you can just kiss my ass.
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:25 am

humanguy wrote:Okay, George, I have a broken moral compass. Anything else?


20 questions?
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
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Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:39 am

The idea of not contaminating the environment with religious practices is similar to the idea of restricting smokers in areas where other people work or are otherwise in close contact. You are free and welcome to smoke, but you shouldn't (and can't) do it where your smoking gets in the lungs of other people who need to be there for some reason. It's not a perfect analogy but I believe it is close.
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