Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Callers to action, creators of Superpacs, and championers of causes great and small unite! Air all your political thoughts here. Whitened teeth, dyed hair, and spray-on tans not required but preferred.

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:32 am

It's a pretty good analogy.
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
User avatar
Keep The Reason
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 10416
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:50 pm
Affiliation: Reasonist

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Simplyme » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:34 am

Lets see if anyone else think so(you know who I mean, right). :-)
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
Simplyme
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 5958
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:11 am

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:51 am

You know, I would really have a hard time if religions in the U.S. were allowed to blast prayers over city-wide PA systems like they do in the Middle-East. But some Christians would probably support that idea and we shouldn't be bothered by it because we could just put in earplugs, right?
User avatar
Patrick Star
resident
resident
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:54 pm
Affiliation: undisclosed

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby humanguy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:45 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:
humanguy wrote:Okay, George, I have a broken moral compass. Anything else?


20 questions?


I don't know what you mean by that, sorry.
Most of us, just about all of us, have the capacity to be rock and rolled by a feeling of pure ecstatic raw joy. You do, don't you? We should respect each other for that.
User avatar
humanguy
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3891
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:50 pm
Location: Lumpen Post-Industrial District
Affiliation: Human

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Patrick Star » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:48 pm

humanguy wrote:Is this really such a problem? How many of us are making plans to spend a big night out at a high school sporting event? What's next, complaining about the food served at a six-year-old's birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese?


We probably shouldn't be concerned when a teacher pulls out her Bible at a public school and teaches about the Revelation during Algebra class either, should we?
User avatar
Patrick Star
resident
resident
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:54 pm
Affiliation: undisclosed

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby humanguy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:16 pm

Patrick Star wrote:
humanguy wrote:Is this really such a problem? How many of us are making plans to spend a big night out at a high school sporting event? What's next, complaining about the food served at a six-year-old's birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese?


We probably shouldn't be concerned when a teacher pulls out her Bible at a public school and teaches about the Revelation during Algebra class either, should we?


If you say so.
Most of us, just about all of us, have the capacity to be rock and rolled by a feeling of pure ecstatic raw joy. You do, don't you? We should respect each other for that.
User avatar
humanguy
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3891
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:50 pm
Location: Lumpen Post-Industrial District
Affiliation: Human

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:59 pm

humanguy wrote:I don't know what you mean by that, sorry.


Your other tactic of answering every question and every answer with yet another question. Something I've raised about you numerous times.
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
User avatar
Keep The Reason
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 10416
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:50 pm
Affiliation: Reasonist

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby humanguy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:57 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:
humanguy wrote:I don't know what you mean by that, sorry.


Your other tactic of answering every question and every answer with yet another question. Something I've raised about you numerous times.


"I don't know what you mean by that, sorry" is not a question. I really don't know what you meant when you asked, and I quote, "20 questions?"

So, what did you mean when you asked me that?
Most of us, just about all of us, have the capacity to be rock and rolled by a feeling of pure ecstatic raw joy. You do, don't you? We should respect each other for that.
User avatar
humanguy
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3891
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:50 pm
Location: Lumpen Post-Industrial District
Affiliation: Human

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Clare » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:02 pm

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:I'm not bias because I wouldn't be against any form of prayer at a sports event and if I was at a sports events where pregame prayer is absent I wouldn't be against that either.


That's fine if prayer of any kind doesn't bother you but I feel that it is inappropriate and a burden on those of us who don't want it pushed on us. That's just how I feel and no amount of argument from you is going to change that. It might not make sense to you, but you are not me so you clearly don't understand where I'm coming from. But I would think that you might find it important to be considerate of others, but maybe that's just asking too much.


People exercising their right to practice their beliefs whether publicly or privately in itself is not inconsideration of others. You don't understand the difference between being intentionally inconsiderate and practicing beliefs around others who are intolerant of those beliefs.

Let's take a forum strictly for non-religious people. A religious person signs up and starts posting about religious matters knowing that isn't allowed.

That is an example of a person showing deliberate inconsideration for the non-religious people there.

2. Let's take a sports event where pregame prayer and people of all races, sex and beliefs are allowed and there's thousands of people in the stadium. A religious person leads a prayer across the loudspeaker and invites anyone who wishes to partake.

That is an example of people expressing their religious beliefs in a place open to all.

In both examples, the religious person/people know or suspect there's bound to be others who disagree with them but the difference is in example 1 the forum is a place strictly for non-religious people and the entire reason for the religious person to post there is to make the non-believers read it.

So, hopefully, that helps.

Anyone who is so intolerant of religion will not appreciate any display of it and will take it as a personal attack. We live in a world where people are going to do things that others don't believe in or like. No one can please everyone. None of us are ever going to see everyone in the world agree on everything or even one thing. So, you and others can complain about pregame prayer and/or attempt to see it disallowed at sport events all you want if something like a couple min prayer is just that unbearable for you guys. You're not going to get your way with everything just like I won't or anyone else for that matter.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:What bothers me is the idea of people taking prayer away in a situation that has very little to do with them for non-sensical reasons for the sake of being hyper sensitive.


The thing is, I see it in a completely different way. I see this as not "taking something away" but rather putting things in their proper space. The event is a football game. It's a paid event, so most everyone who showed up came because of the game, except for the students who are required to attend and represent their school. It isn't a religious event, so there's no reason to involve religion in it at all. Sans religion, the entire event can occur exactly as it is supposed to and in fact they do all over the place. As I said, they don't do that where I live. It's also inappropriate because for the students, it is a required event, just as school is. A principle leading a class or the entire school in a prayer over the loud speaker is not only inappropriate but illegal. The game is just an extension of the school and quite often these are held on school property. So, these reasons are quite solid and reasonable.


Most religious people don't see religion as having their own proper place. They live out their religion outside their Church, Mosque, home and so on. That is their right and when people attempt to remove that ability, even at a sports event, they are attempting to take that right away. And, a prayer alone is not a religious event. It's a religious practice. A religious event is Baptism, Confirmation, First Holy Communion, and so on.

Apart from thinking a pregame prayer is purposefully inconsiderate, forced, bullish and causes peer pressure you say it's illegal. Separation of Church and State is meant to keep the Government from acting in an official capacity to either promote or restrict religious beliefs. If Congress were to come together and try to create legislation that supports one religion over others then that would be in clear violation of the separation of Church and State.

Patrick Star wrote:You know, if anyone's being "hyper" about this, it appears to be you. You appear to be hyper-obsessed with how I feel about this. All I've done is express my opinion and provided some reasons why I feel this way, but you just keep throwing out all sorts of bizarre arguments in an attempt, I suppose, to change my mind. In the grand scheme of things, I don't actually have much say in this practice at all. I could write a letter or speak at a city council meeting, but mine is the minority opinion so the majority could just choose to ignore me if they want. You, however, have this strange obsession where you seem to be offended that someone even has an opinion that differs from you.


We're on a debate forum?...

Aaand, I don't know where you got the impression I'm offended that you have a different opinion? Do you think because I don't agree and state why that somehow that makes me offended? I'm just expressing my views and sharing my reasons for them just as you are. Lastly, with these strong views you have you should write a letter or speak to your city council if it really matters. Otherwise, it looks likes you don't care as much as you appear to.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Now, you say "purposefully inconvenienced"? You've also been saying you and others are being forced, bullied and peer pressured? How about you just stick with "inconvenienced", since because that's the most accurate term you've used so far.


I'll use whatever term I choose that I believe best represents how I feel, thanks very much. Sorry, but you have no say in that.


You have and will continue to. I was just saying the term "inconvenienced" is the most accurate out of all you've used.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:You repeatedly keep saying you and others are being forced. I explained what it actually means to be forced into something.


You may have explained how you feel about it, but I don't agree. To me it feels that I'm being forced into it and my only way to avoid it is to remove myself from the event itself. I just don't find this to be an appropriate situation.


Unless those against pregame prayer are being threatened or coerced into taking part in or having to listen to pregame prayer then they are not being forced. They have a choice. If someone is making you do something involuntarily then you're not being forced.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Now, should people be allowed to stop gay pride parades because it inconveniences those who disagree with promoting homosexuality and blocks traffic?


If the demonstration is happening in an event that the people paid to get into, then I think they've got a reasonable complaint. But most parades are held on the street and there is this little thing called the Constitution that protects free speech there. Most places also have ordinances and permits for parades so people are generally aware ahead of time when one is about to commence, so there's no reason to even be near it if you don't want to; it's not like you're about to watch a football game that you paid to see. I've seen my share of prayers and preachers out in the public. The difference is that they were not on a loud speaker and it wasn't a venue I paid to get into to watch a different event. I actually don't have anything against public prayer or preaching; it's a protected form of speech. But I don't want someone to take advantage of a situation and force me into it either, especially when they have so much opportunity to do it in a place and time that doesn't include people who don't want to be involved with it. And also, I could apply for a permit to have an Atheist parade to counter a Christian parade if I wanted to. I couldn't get a spot to give an atheist invocation at a football game because Christians just wouldn't allow it in places where this is practiced. So, if you can't fathom this, that's fine with me because I'm not asking you to agree; I'm just telling you how I feel about it.


Obviously, the two scenarios are different. I was already aware of this. But, my point seems to have alluded you. It's unreasonable to expect everyone else in the world to stop expressing themselves in a harmless fashion because others choose to be offended and make a big deal out of something that has no affect on them.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Also, you think every time a person leads a pregame prayer it's done out to purposefully inconvenience, force, bully and peer pressure you and other non-religious people? Do you have any idea how narcissistic and oversensitive you and anyone else with the same views on this look?


Not necessarily. If they are doing it with the awareness that not everyone cares to listen to that, it leaves me with the impression that they are doing it out of spite. They could easily be more considerate if they chose to.

There's no narcissism going on here. Narcissism is about self-absorption, self-admiration, egotism. I'm not displaying any of that. You are just looking for ways to vilify me because you dislike my opinions.


Getting the impression they are doing it out of spite? You've been saying as if it's a fact that the person who leads a pregame prayer at a sports event purposely does it to be inconsiderate. You also said as if fact that you're being forced, bullied and peer pressured.

And, well, when you think that people praying around you in public would have any reason to have you or those like you on their mind then that is egotistical. At a sports event, the prayer has a purpose and you have nothing to do with that unless the prayer is about you.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:You've also said that you think public prayer in general is a subtle form of marketing/publicity for Christians as well? If someone wants to use prayer for marketing and publicity then that's what they're going to attempt. But, for anyone to say or think all people who pray in public are doing so for that reason? Well, good luck proving that!


I think this particular form of public prayer is a type of marketing and publicity because there is a diverse population in attendance and they know full well that some of the people in the stadium aren't Christians or they may be but they don't attend church, so this is an easy way to reach out to them. I don't have to prove anything; I'm expressing how I see this. It's called my opinion and it's not something you are able to change just because you don't like it.


I'm not going to say that never happens but for anyone to automatically assume that's the case every time is once again egotistical.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Anyway, the pregame prayer is usually related to the players about to go on the field and whatever else the person leading the prayer feels like adding.


Well you just left that wide open. "Anything else the person feels like adding"? So that means he could launch into a fire and brimstone sermon about the Revelation! Actually, if these prayers were kept strictly to wishes that the players be kept safe from harm and perform with good sportsmanship and so forth then I probably wouldn't mind. But inevitably it becomes more than that, and that's where it just offends me to have to listen to that stuff. And by the way, you don't get to determine what offends someone else.


Do you think the person leading the pregame prayer would be allowed to just go off on some long fire and brimstone sermon or about anything else for that matter before a game? If they add anything it probably has to be game related or something small like a prayer for troops over seas or some local problem. Also, there's a time limit on the prayer because they have to stay on schedule so it has to be brief. And, I told you before that pregame prayers are usually about the safety of the players and you definitely did not respond with letting me know you wouldn't mind that. If you ever attended a sports event where there was pregame prayer was your experience like?

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Below is what you said word for word. (Underlining, bolding and font size increase were of my doing.)

Patrick Star wrote:Here's my suggestion if public prayer at football games is an absolute must. You must be diverse about it. You must allow different religious representatives to do an invocation at each game, including an atheist. So, I suppose we'll need to begin games about an hour later to accommodate all of these prayers because it's going to last a while. The length of each will be 3 minutes max and every religion in the community must be allowed an opportunity. That's only fair.


In that post, you did not make it clear that proposition was something to not be taken seriously. You submitted that post on Jan 02, 2016 4:50 pm. I've brought that post to your attention on that day and several times since then, even yesterday and today, and it wasn't until today on Jan 26, 2016 12:24 pm that you replied to me about it. Either you failed to clarify yourself initially and just missed or forgot to reply to me every time I brought it up or you intentionally ignored the issue every time and finally backtracked today. Either way, whether or not that proposal of yours ever comes to pass is irrelevant. You gave a suggestion that you would support which invalidates every argument you made against pregame prayer.


What the hell do you think you are, the forum hall monitor? I'm telling you now that I don't ever expect that to happen and I didn't then either; it's a preposterous proposition and I would expect any semi-intelligent hominid to know that. And it invalidates nothing. Look, you, I explained why I don't care for these type of public prayers. I don't care if you don't agree with me. If you offered any kind of understanding it might help, but all you have really said is that I shouldn't be bothered by it or I should just go out of my way to avoid it. So, here's my answer to your ridiculous suggestions. NO and NO! Thanks a lot.


I was just saying I brought that suggestion of yours to your attention many times since you mentioned it and 24 days later you finally address it. And, again, the way you phrased the proposition it does look to be taken seriously. So, to me, you either failed to initially clarify that proposition was not meant to be taken seriously and just forgot to do so after every time I brought that proposition of yours to your attention. Or, your proposition was made out of seriousness and when I said it therefore invalidates every argument of yours made prior to it you ignored every time I brought it up to you because it was understandably embarrassing so then you finally backtracked today on it 24 days later.

Patrick Star wrote:By the way, I am free to ignore any comment you make. I'll PUT you on ignore if you keep acting this way. You seem to be under some kind of warped impression that you can badger others until they change their opinions. Sorry, life doesn't work that way. You are free to make your case, but if I don't agree then there's really nothing you can do about it but cry.


This is a debate forum. We're debating over pregame prayer.

Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:So, how is it any different? You're not as against it because you know individuals who are or have been in the military? And, praying at a sports event does not institutionalize religion. It's the expression of faith by individuals who happen to be watching or participating in the sports event which is their right.


I don't care for the prayers because its a religious practice that I don't want to be a part of and I don't want to go out of my way at an event where I bought a ticket, just to avoid it. The military thing is not about religion so I don't feel offended by it; I just find them to be too nationalistic for my taste.


Good to see that you see prayer is a religious practice and not a religious event now. Maybe you already did know the difference but just got the terms mixed up before which happens. Also, you're not part of the pregame prayer unless you're taking part by praying.

You talked about the military being recognized at sports events. You said the following:

Patrick Star wrote:I find them overly nationalistic and frankly they smack of conditioning the public to support our military no matter what they might be up to in the world. I tolerate them for the most part because I know individuals who are or have been military and of course the military isn't a religious institution, but I would prefer they not happen at all except on the specific days set aside for honoring those who have served, such as Veterans day and Memorial day.


You say a religious person leading a prayer is doing so for marketing/publicity, to be purposefully inconsiderate, forceful, bullish and peer pressuring you and all non-religious people. You say someone showing recognition to military personnel smacks of conditioning the public to support them no matter what they might be up to in the world but haven't complained about them being purposefully inconsiderate, forceful, bullish or peer pressuring those who care to not hear their spiel. You prefer neither happen unless pregame prayer was about the safety of players (which it usually is) and the military were only recognized on such days as Veterans and Memorial day. The only reason you tolerate military recognition is because you know individuals who are or have been in the military and it's not about religion. You don't tolerate pregame prayer even though you probably know someone who is or were religious and prayer is a religious practice.

Recognizing the military may not be of a religious nature but recognizing the military is a belief many people hold nonetheless. Prayer and recognition of the military are expressions of belief but because prayer is of a religious nature that is the one you are intolerant of.


Patrick Star wrote:
Clare wrote:Well, I admire and appreciate people who like you don't have tunnel vision. When I read what untruths KTR was saying I just couldn't not say anything. So, you're welcome. Let's see if any Christians start calling me a traitor :P


You "couldn't" or "wouldn't"?


I couldn't not say anything because what KTR said is untrue and untruths should be called out.

Keep The Reason wrote:
Patrick Star wrote:The idea of not contaminating the environment with religious practices is similar to the idea of restricting smokers in areas where other people work or are otherwise in close contact. You are free and welcome to smoke, but you shouldn't (and can't) do it where your smoking gets in the lungs of other people who need to be there for some reason. It's not a perfect analogy but I believe it is close.


It's a pretty good analogy.


You're actually comparing carcinogenic substance to prayer? I'm surprised KTR didn't bark at that. And, you're right, it isn't perfect but it sure isn't close.

Patrick Star wrote:Clare, I'm not going to continue this ridiculous argument with you.


Yeah, because getting offended by being around people praying for a couple min at a freaking sports event, when the prayer isn't even about you but others, is ridiculous and egotistical.
Last edited by Clare on Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clare
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3213
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:23 pm
Affiliation: Catholic

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby humanguy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:18 pm

Clare wrote:You're actually comparing carcinogenic substance to prayer? You're right it isn't perfect and it sure isn't close. I'm surprised KTR didn't bark at that.


Why?
Most of us, just about all of us, have the capacity to be rock and rolled by a feeling of pure ecstatic raw joy. You do, don't you? We should respect each other for that.
User avatar
humanguy
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3891
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:50 pm
Location: Lumpen Post-Industrial District
Affiliation: Human

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Clare » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:21 pm

Why am I surprised KTR didn't bark at that analogy? If that's what you're referring to, well, because no matter how bias he is, I know he is capable of calling out illogical hyperbolic crap like I'm pretty sure he's done before.
Clare
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3213
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:23 pm
Affiliation: Catholic

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby humanguy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:13 pm

Clare wrote:Why am I surprised KTR didn't bark at that analogy? If that's what you're referring to, well, because no matter how bias he is, I know he is capable of calling out illogical hyperbolic crap like I'm pretty sure he's done before.


Saying that listening to a prayer at a high school football game is the same thing as having to breath carcinogenic second-hand cigarette smoke is a "pretty good analogy" is just mindlessly reciting from the atheist handbook. If Christianity was the Communist Party, I'm betting that our esteemed moderator would have gleefully humped his share of idealogical baggage for Joe McCarthy.
Last edited by humanguy on Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Most of us, just about all of us, have the capacity to be rock and rolled by a feeling of pure ecstatic raw joy. You do, don't you? We should respect each other for that.
User avatar
humanguy
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3891
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:50 pm
Location: Lumpen Post-Industrial District
Affiliation: Human

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Keep The Reason » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:30 am

humanguy wrote:Saying that listening to a prayer at a high school football game is the same thing as having to breath carcinogenic second-hand cigarette smoke is a "pretty good analogy" is just mindlessly reciting from the atheist handbook. If Christianity was the Communist Party, I'm betting that our esteemed moderator would have gleefully humped his share of idealogical baggage for Joe McCarthy.


The analogy was not about the harm of the smoke, you nitwit. It was about the irritation and the inability to control where the smoke goes. Patrick was not making the argument about the smokes harm but the lack of of being able to restrict where it goes.

The people who made the focus of the analogy about carcinogenics was the theist and their resident Quisling.
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
User avatar
Keep The Reason
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 10416
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:50 pm
Affiliation: Reasonist

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby Keep The Reason » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:32 am

humanguy wrote:So, what did you mean when you asked me that?


What do you think I meant?
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
User avatar
Keep The Reason
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 10416
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:50 pm
Affiliation: Reasonist

Re: Totally legal public school pre-game Prayer

Postby humanguy » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:11 am

Keep The Reason wrote:
humanguy wrote:So, what did you mean when you asked me that?


What do you think I meant?


I can't read your tiny mind, Joe.
Most of us, just about all of us, have the capacity to be rock and rolled by a feeling of pure ecstatic raw joy. You do, don't you? We should respect each other for that.
User avatar
humanguy
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 3891
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:50 pm
Location: Lumpen Post-Industrial District
Affiliation: Human

PreviousNext

Return to Politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest