Cause and Effect and Convergance...

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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:48 pm

Stacie Cook wrote:Forgive me if I am not understanding correctly, but here is am implication I am seeing....

I see a statement indicating that if a woman was pregnant and didn't have the resources to raise the child, having an abortion rids her and society of the lifetime burden of misery, poverty, abuse, crime, etc. As if to erase the situation that came about and then for the woman to move on and get back to life as it was.


No it doesn't erase the trauma of the rape but it also isn't an ongoing lifelong direct and physical reminder of the event as well.

The primary reason for being pro choice is to accept the fact that women have the reproductive right to decide to have a child or not have a child.

Right there, all other arguments take second class status. All other events, be they traumatic or not, are secondary to the primary inalienable RIGHT a woman has to bring a child to term or not. The only other consideration is the development of the fetus. After its brain and nervous system is developed and active, a new wrinkle appears in the process-- and that is, "When does a developing fetus become a protected human being?" That is a very real and valid quesiton and it should impact our choices here.

My position -- based not on personal opinion but the best scientific data-- would be that we are only talking about a proto-human in the 1week to the end of the first trimester. sometime during the 2nd trimester, the brain and nervous system are developed to a point where ethics come into play. In the 3rd trimester, we're basically talking about a fully developed, if still reliant upon the mother, child. I'd be very much against abortions in such cases, especially given the huge amount of time the mother would have to make a reasoned choice.

Aborting in the first trimester is no different from a miscarriage. Such abortions should cause no one ANY sense of ethical struggle at all. We don't have waves of weeping over the countless millions of miscarriages that occur naturally, although for people who want the baby directly there is usually a sense of loss. But since there's nothing we can do about miscarriages anyway, and since this is where 99.9% of all abortions occur, the ONLY reason for this push back is a religious one, which does not belong in this debate. If your religion proscribes abortion and you're religious, then don't have one. That's the length, breadth, and width of how applicable the religious argument is.

The other choice being instead that the woman does have the baby in a lifetime environment of poverty and misery.
Is it that cut and dry? Even if the woman has the abortion, life will *never* be the same for her.


No it's not that cut and dried but we look to the worst case scenario and try to incorporate a solution for that in approaching solutions that work. If we include the worst case scenario, then everything BETTER than a worst-case is equally served by a solution.

Example: Let's say you have a 5 story building by a beach where the waves can reach 3 stories. You build a wall that's 4 stories to ensure the building is protected. Everything LESS than 4 stories is likewise protected. If you approach a problem the other way, if you KNOW there's a 3 story wave and only build it to withstand 2 stories, you guarantee failure.

So we look to the worst cases here, position a solution for that, and anything LESS than the worst case is likewise protected.

In the end however, your position is still irrelevant. More important in a practical sense than how the woman or girl would feel internally at some future point is giving her the CHOICE to have it or not. How she feels is important but only is we have left her with options to proceed as she feels. If you remove from her the option to proceed to end the pregnancy, then you are denying her any opportunity to proceed based on how she feels.

She will always be thinking of the child she aborted. Then what kind of things might she go through that adds to societal problems- drug abuse, depression, mental health issues, relationship problems, etc.


You have no cause to state that the woman would "always" be thinking of the child she aborted. Define "always". Every moment of every single day, for the next 80 years? How could you possibly know such a thing?

I know a few women who have had abortions and show no untoward effects of it. Do they think about it? I suppose some do, others don't. In my own personal experience-- admittedly anecdotal -- I know of two women who have had them and neither is particularly depressed about it. They have since had other children, and are happy, and simply consider the event an unpleasant thing.

I suspect that as time goes on, the memory of it likely fades. But as far as studies are concerned, the American Psychologist Association did a study which did not find any direct link to abortion and depression, drug use etc.

Abortion and Mental Health
Evaluating the Evidence
Brenda Major University of California, Santa Barbara
Mark Appelbaum University of California, San Diego
Linda Beckman Alliant International University, Los Angeles
Mary Ann Dutton Georgetown University Medical Center
Nancy Felipe Russo Arizona State University
Carolyn West University of Washington, Tacoma

The authors evaluated empirical research addressing the relationship between induced abortion and women’s mental health. Two issues were addressed: (a) the relative risks associated with abortion compared with the risks associated with its alternatives and (b) sources of variability in women’s responses following abortion. This article reflects and updates the report of the American Psychological Association Task Force on Mental Health and Abortion (2008). Major methodological problems pervaded most of the research reviewed. The most rigorous studies indicated that within the United States, the relative risk of mental health problems among adult women who have a single, legal, first-trimester abortion of an unwanted pregnancy is
no greater than the risk among women who deliver an unwanted pregnancy.

Evidence did not support the claim that observed associations between abortion and mental health problems are caused by abortion per se as opposed to other preexisting and co-occurring risk factors. Most adult women who terminate a pregnancy do not experience mental health problems. Some women do, however. It is important that women’s varied experiences of abortion be recognized, validated, and understood.


I highlighted the section in red because the study does point out that women who are most likely to get abortions (the poor, minorities, etc.) also show a marked increase in such risks ANYWAY, simply by being poor and a minority. You're about as likely to become a drug user or an alcoholic or depressed by being poor and/or in a minor ethnicity, whether or not you have an abortion.

Also, a key element to the article points out that what is MORE likely to cause such depressions is the cultural environment one finds oneself in. In the USA in California, a woman who has had an abortion is not looked at with harsh judgement or despised. In Mississippi, can we say the same? I doubt it. I would think women who get abortions in these backwards states are pariahs and are treated as such. So -- let's be sure you know the underlying causes here. And abortion that is pretty much indistinguishable from a natural miscarriage is not likely to traumatize someone, whereas community condemnation, poverty, and stunted opportunities due to race we know for a FACT offers such outcomes.
So keep that in mind.

The damage, so to speak, has been done as soon as she is pregnant. Any decision going forward, her life will never be the same. Even and especially in rape cases. I hear the argument, "Forcing a woman to be pregnant from a rape is cruel." (I'm not saying she should be forced.)


No it's continuing the cruelty. The rape itself is cruel. Once that happens, everything that happens after it can enhance or diminish the cruelty. I say -- LET THE VICTIM DECIDE.

How novel, right? Let the person who was victimized make their OWN CHOICES as to what they want to do. If they want to keep the child, then fine. If they do not, then fine. If they want to have the child and give it up, fine again.

You tell me what's fairer than that? What we do is STAY OUT OF THINGS THAT ARE NOT OUR BUSINESS.

But let's make sure we illustrate what you're arguing here. You're saying that those who are pro choice are completely "either/or" on this, when we're not at all. All pro choice people are saying is, "Let the option be available and let it be safe and affordable."

The actual CHOICE is not ours to make, unless of course we're the ones who are pregnant.

Aside from the politics involved in that statement, whether or not she carries to baby to term, she will never be the same. The act of the rape has changed her going forward. Even if she does abort the baby. Erasing the baby isn't going to erase what happened.


That's right. As I said, it's what happens AFTERWARDS that enhance or diminish the trauma, and for that we leave the choice up to the victim. Not me. Not you. Not a priest or a senator or a corporate shill. The woman who has to go through it.

I see abortion being mentioned as if it a solution to simply erase a bad day and then move on. It isn't.
I'm sure no one means it to sound that way, but I feel compelled to bring it up.


Yeah that's the shattered thinking of people like Chapabel. In no way would I insist it is such a solution unless the woman feels that the abortion will accomplish that, and that's HER business not ours.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Stacie Cook » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:44 pm

Thanks for the replies.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Simplyme » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:51 am

She will always be thinking of the child she aborted. Then what kind of things might she go through that adds to societal problems- drug abuse, depression, mental health issues, relationship problems, etc.


I disagree. Just because you might think so, that is not the case. She will not "always" be thinking of the zygote she aborted. Drama Much!?!?!?
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Stacie Cook » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:16 pm

I don't mean every second of every day. But the thought will always be with her. It may fade over time, but there will always be in the back of her mind, "What if I hadn't. What would he(she) look like? I wonder if he would have my nose. Would he have liked the smell of grass like I do. I wonder what career path he would have chosen. I wonder, I wonder...."


Think of someone close to you that you have lost. Does the memory ever go away completely? Ever see someone that looks like the person you lost? It can bring back a flood of emotion/memories. Again, it may/probably fades over time, but the imprint has been made and it cannot be erased or completely forgotten.

And to touch on something KTR said...
A woman who has had an abortion may go on with life and be a happy healthy individual and go on to have more children within a healthy relationship. That's great. And maybe she isn't going to seem like it affected her in any negative way. Maybe it doesn't. But you can't tell me she will *never* think about it ever again or never have thoughts about what would have been. My point is a reminder for us all that abortion is not an eraser of a bad day. There will be lifelong emotional effects no matter what decision is made. And perhaps there could be physical reminders as well left over from the pregnancy depending on how her body managed the pregnancy.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Simplyme » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:38 pm

I don't mean every second of every day. But the thought will always be with her. It may fade over time, but there will always be in the back of her mind, "What if I hadn't. What would he(she) look like? I wonder if he would have my nose. Would he have liked the smell of grass like I do. I wonder what career path he would have chosen. I wonder, I wonder...."


Still disagree.

Think of someone close to you that you have lost. Does the memory ever go away completely? Ever see someone that looks like the person you lost? It can bring back a flood of emotion/memories. Again, it may/probably fades over time, but the imprint has been made and it cannot be erased or completely forgotten.


That like comparing apples to bricks. Again with trying to humanize a zygote.

And to touch on something KTR said...
A woman who has had an abortion may go on with life and be a happy healthy individual and go on to have more children within a healthy relationship. That's great. And maybe she isn't going to seem like it affected her in any negative way. Maybe it doesn't. But you can't tell me she will *never* think about it ever again or never have thoughts about what would have been. My point is a reminder for us all that abortion is not an eraser of a bad day. There will be lifelong emotional effects no matter what decision is made. And perhaps there could be physical reminders as well left over from the pregnancy depending on how her body managed the pregnancy.


Nobody is saying never(drama again). To some it can be an eraser of a bad "lay". Why would you think otherwise? Again they may be no "LIFELONG EMOTIONAL EFFECT". Why would you claim that they "will" be? You are all over the place........

What physical reminders are you talking about???????? You realize what size a Zygote is, right?

4 weeks: Baby is the size of a poppy seed
5 weeks: Your baby is about the size of a sesame seed
6 weeks: Your baby is about the size of a lentil
7 weeks: Your baby is about the size of a blueberry
8 weeks: Your baby is about the size of a kidney bean
ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Stacie Cook » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:58 pm

You do realize that a woman's body goes through significant changes on the inside due to being pregnant. I'm not talking about how big the baby is. All kinds of hormonal changes go into a pregnancy, just even to get pregnant. And often times the changes the body has experienced from the hormone level flucuations can leave life long effects. Do you really want details?? I'm talking about monthly cycles, changes to the bladder system, changes that effect thyroid, how the body regulates temperature, how you sweat, etc....


I find it very hard to believe that a woman who has had an abortion does not experience lifelong emotional effects. I'm not saying they would necessarily go crying around everyday. Again, maybe they go on to live normal productive lives. I am saying that an imprint has been made. It cannot be erased. How then could a woman go through life and never re-visit the imprint and it never have some effect on her ever. Lifelong implies different points throughout her life. Not necessarily daily or monthly or even yearly, but at different intervals in her life. Which is what I mean by 'lifelong'.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Simplyme » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:24 pm

I find it very hard to believe that a woman who has had an abortion does not experience lifelong emotional effects. I'm not saying they would necessarily go crying around everyday. Again, maybe they go on to live normal productive lives. I am saying that an imprint has been made. It cannot be erased. How then could a woman go through life and never re-visit the imprint and it never have some effect on her ever. Lifelong implies different points throughout her life. Not necessarily daily or monthly or even yearly, but at different intervals in her life. Which is what I mean by 'lifelong'.


I find it very hard to believe that you just do not get it. It's almost to the level of :argh:
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Stacie Cook » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:31 pm

Well, I can go home now. I have accomplished my goal for the day.
Kidding.

I am content to agree to disagree.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:46 pm

Stacie Cook wrote:I find it very hard to believe that a woman who has had an abortion does not experience lifelong emotional effects. I'm not saying they would necessarily go crying around everyday. Again, maybe they go on to live normal productive lives. I am saying that an imprint has been made. It cannot be erased. How then could a woman go through life and never re-visit the imprint and it never have some effect on her ever. Lifelong implies different points throughout her life. Not necessarily daily or monthly or even yearly, but at different intervals in her life. Which is what I mean by 'lifelong'.


Why don't you ask a few of them who've had one?
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Simplyme » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:07 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:
Stacie Cook wrote:I find it very hard to believe that a woman who has had an abortion does not experience lifelong emotional effects. I'm not saying they would necessarily go crying around everyday. Again, maybe they go on to live normal productive lives. I am saying that an imprint has been made. It cannot be erased. How then could a woman go through life and never re-visit the imprint and it never have some effect on her ever. Lifelong implies different points throughout her life. Not necessarily daily or monthly or even yearly, but at different intervals in her life. Which is what I mean by 'lifelong'.


Why don't you ask a few of them who've had one?


I really do not believe that would change her mind. She would claim they are lying.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Stacie Cook » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:16 pm

I have and they have said just what I mentioned. I know 5 women who have had abortions. Two of them are completely fine with the decision they made and live normal healthy lives. But they have both said that although they do not regret making that decision, they do have occasional thoughts about that baby and the what ifs. One had her abortion over 30yrs ago, the other about 15yrs ago.
The other three women I know have regrets about having an abortion. They live fairly normal lives but have a harder time dealing with the decsion they made (one had hers over 40yrs ago, one 18yrs ago, one just 5yrs ago). The one who had hers 5yrs ago is really wrestling with herself and why she did it and worried about future pregnancies. The other two have regrets but over time have learned to forgive themselves. All of them think about that decision and the what ifs. The one who had hers 18yrs ago still deals with some complications that resulted from the process. She and her husband chose to use a surrogate for their 2 current children because she can no longer carry another baby successfully.

These are only 5 examples, but they all indicate that the decision changed their lives forever and they will never forget.

I don't doubt there are a few who have forgotten but I am saying I think the vast majority will never forget.
Last edited by Stacie Cook on Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Stacie Cook » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:20 pm

Simplyme wrote:
Keep The Reason wrote:
Stacie Cook wrote:I find it very hard to believe that a woman who has had an abortion does not experience lifelong emotional effects. I'm not saying they would necessarily go crying around everyday. Again, maybe they go on to live normal productive lives. I am saying that an imprint has been made. It cannot be erased. How then could a woman go through life and never re-visit the imprint and it never have some effect on her ever. Lifelong implies different points throughout her life. Not necessarily daily or monthly or even yearly, but at different intervals in her life. Which is what I mean by 'lifelong'.


Why don't you ask a few of them who've had one?


I really do not believe that would change her mind. She would claim they are lying.


Lying about what? What would I gain by doing that?
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:21 pm

Stacie Cook wrote:I have and they have said just what I mentioned. I know 5 women who have had abortions. Two of them are completely fine with the decision they made and live normal healthy lives. But they have both said that although they do not regret making that decision, they do have occasional thoughts about that baby and the what ifs. One had her abortion over 30yrs ago, the other about 15yrs ago.
The other three women I know have regrets about having an abortion. They live fairly normal lives but have a harder time dealing with the decsion they made (one had hers over 40yrs ago, one 18yrs ago, one just 5yrs ago). The one who had hers 5yrs ago is really wrestling with herself and why she did it and worried about future pregnancies. The other two have regrets but over time have learned to forgive themselves. All of them think about that decision and the what ifs. The one who had hers 18yrs ago still deals with some complications that resulted from the process. She and her husband chose to use a surrogate for their 2 current children because she can no longer carry another baby successfully.

These are only 5 examples, but they all indicate that the decision changed their lives forever and they will never forget.

I don't doubt there are a few who have forgotten but I am saying I think the vast majority will never forget.


Ok well you've gone from "They will remember and be led to drugs, depression and alcoholism" to "They will remember and it will be either a non-issue, a mild recollection, a wistful "what if"? and at worst, maybe some worry; and a worry that was apparently unfounded."

My wife had stage 3+ cancerous cells in her uterus and we had leep surgery-- she was a whole hell of a lot more worried about that for years than she'd've been over her failed ectopic pregnancy which required a medical procedure (and resulted in the horrifying death of a zygote! Gads! What great poet have we lost??!??! Oh wait-- it's with Jesus now, just another little dot pockmarking his face like he's got acne, lol).

So it looks like even in your anecdotal sampling you didn't run across a single person who sunk into a mire of drugs, and poverty and misery and depression and suicide and prostitution, and car theft and murder and murder most foul, etc.

In other words, while it wasn't a pleasant experience for them it isn't life-shattering event either which is where you were specifically heading when you brought it up as if it leads to more social ills. It doesn't, not significantly so. You have your answer. People get over it and have lives. No surprise there.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Stacie Cook » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:53 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:
Stacie Cook wrote:I have and they have said just what I mentioned. I know 5 women who have had abortions. Two of them are completely fine with the decision they made and live normal healthy lives. But they have both said that although they do not regret making that decision, they do have occasional thoughts about that baby and the what ifs. One had her abortion over 30yrs ago, the other about 15yrs ago.
The other three women I know have regrets about having an abortion. They live fairly normal lives but have a harder time dealing with the decsion they made (one had hers over 40yrs ago, one 18yrs ago, one just 5yrs ago). The one who had hers 5yrs ago is really wrestling with herself and why she did it and worried about future pregnancies. The other two have regrets but over time have learned to forgive themselves. All of them think about that decision and the what ifs. The one who had hers 18yrs ago still deals with some complications that resulted from the process. She and her husband chose to use a surrogate for their 2 current children because she can no longer carry another baby successfully.

These are only 5 examples, but they all indicate that the decision changed their lives forever and they will never forget.

I don't doubt there are a few who have forgotten but I am saying I think the vast majority will never forget.


Ok well you've gone from "They will remember and be led to drugs, depression and alcoholism" to "They will remember and it will be either a non-issue, a mild recollection, a wistful "what if"? and at worst, maybe some worry; and a worry that was apparently unfounded."

My wife had stage 3+ cancerous cells in her uterus and we had leep surgery-- she was a whole hell of a lot more worried about that for years than she'd've been over her failed ectopic pregnancy which required a medical procedure (and resulted in the horrifying death of a zygote! Gads! What great poet have we lost??!??! Oh wait-- it's with Jesus now, just another little dot pockmarking his face like he's got acne, lol).

So it looks like even in your anecdotal sampling you didn't run across a single person who sunk into a mire of drugs, and poverty and misery and depression and suicide and prostitution, and car theft and murder and murder most foul, etc.

In other words, while it wasn't a pleasant experience for them it isn't life-shattering event either which is where you were specifically heading when you brought it up as if it leads to more social ills. It doesn't, not significantly so. You have your answer. People get over it and have lives. No surprise there.


I never said every woman will be led to depression and drugs. I said it is a possibility and a likelihood for at least some percentage of women. Maybe not a 'significant' percentage, but it's still percentage enough.
As humans we are all so different. When a situation arises, we deal with the situation in different ways. Among women who have had abortions, there is going to be a myriad of reactions and how each deals with it. The reactions will range from being depressed, suicidal, a burden on society, etc to women who have dealt with it on a manageable level and are able to have normal lives. Again, the point is that no matter where she falls on the pendulum, I think there is a likelihood she will always thoughts about the experience. It may or may not show on the outside. It may or may not have ill effects on society. You can get on with life and yet still be impacted by a significant event that happened. I think it is minimizing to think otherwise. That's all I am saying.
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Re: Cause and Effect and Convergance...

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:52 pm

Stacie Cook wrote:I never said every woman will be led to depression and drugs. I said it is a possibility and a likelihood for at least some percentage of women. Maybe not a 'significant' percentage, but it's still percentage enough.
As humans we are all so different. When a situation arises, we deal with the situation in different ways. Among women who have had abortions, there is going to be a myriad of reactions and how each deals with it. The reactions will range from being depressed, suicidal, a burden on society, etc to women who have dealt with it on a manageable level and are able to have normal lives. Again, the point is that no matter where she falls on the pendulum, I think there is a likelihood she will always thoughts about the experience. It may or may not show on the outside. It may or may not have ill effects on society. You can get on with life and yet still be impacted by a significant event that happened. I think it is minimizing to think otherwise. That's all I am saying.


It's a possibility that it will also lead them to Jesus. Or chocolate ice cream. Or to ball room dancing. Or to ski-less water skiing.

This is a fruitless path down which to go. Overall, there's no statistical significant deleterious effects. "What might be" is really just a time wasting exercise in futile speculation when we already know the outcomes from research.
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