Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

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Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby Keep The Reason » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:28 am

Wow, the Feb 25th Republican "debate" was amazing.


Trump got beaten up like a bitch but it was ch9ock full of dropping jaw moments. A raft of The Young Turks videos give a great accounting of it. Man, I don't know how the conservatives / Republicans are not thoroughly embarrassed. And if this keeps up, the Running of the Loons thread is going to quadruple in size!

Summary:


Biggest fail:
Trump gets exposed as having no health care plan (none of them do except "Repeal Obamacare". Great "plan".)



Biggest Controversy:
Trump gets exposed as the guy who is so much a hypocrite that it might even give Republicans pause... (ah, nah, we know it won't).


Best Line:
Goes to Ben Carson. But watch the three stooges in the center leading up to it.


Play this music in your head while you're watching that back and forth between Rubio, Trump and Cruz:
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby Particles » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:25 pm

The slapfight is ongoing. Rubio suggests Trump wet his pants on debate stage - POLITICO

Trump's victories show that a sizable number Republican voters approve of these antics, but it could be too little too late for Rubio, appears a bit desperate. It's been bizarre how almost all the candidates refrained from criticizing Trump till now, even without getting in the gutter. And these cowards think they know how to win real wars.
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby Simplyme » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:46 pm

I for one deep down would love to see the US of A with Trump as president. Just to see what real power the president truly holds. But scared that the cost would be to high. I mean Bush was as big a clown as Trump.....only Trump is intentionally doing it. Bush had no idea. IMHO, of course.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby Keep The Reason » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:45 pm

Particles wrote:The slapfight is ongoing. Rubio suggests Trump wet his pants on debate stage - POLITICO

Trump's victories show that a sizable number Republican voters approve of these antics, but it could be too little too late for Rubio, appears a bit desperate. It's been bizarre how almost all the candidates refrained from criticizing Trump till now, even without getting in the gutter. And these cowards think they know how to win real wars.


Other than McCain they are ALL chickenhawks. None of them served a minute in the military but they all have massive balls when it comes to sabre rattling and war bluster and sending other people's kids into harm's way. This was also true of the Bush administration, including Captain Loon who ditched his National Guard service more often than he attended it.

The Republican party is so hopelessly broken that you'd be completely secure in thinking it's on the verge of self destruction. But it's not, and that's because underlying the entire party is a huge swath of racists, bigots, misogynists, and outright idiots. What else can you say when your party's front runner says something like this:

thepoorlyeducated.jpg
thepoorlyeducated.jpg (31.18 KiB) Viewed 831 times


This is not a created meme -- this is actually what Trump has said. "We love the poorly educated!" Oh yeah I'll bet you do. Like a big city con man loves a family from a cornfield in Nebraska on their first trip to Gotham.

How anyone has the stomach to still be in that party is beyond me. But stay they do-- and you know, at the end of the day, I gotta think it's about character. You stay in a party that represents your ideals. And your front runner represents the majority view of the people in that party and their ideals.

Nothing is more of a condemnation than that statement of fact.
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby Rian » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:17 pm

I can't stand Trump, but to be fair, I don't see how he has "no health care plan". He said to take away the lines between the states and let competition loose. How is that not a plan? Some people may think it's not a good plan, but how is it NOT a plan? Do people not understand that currently, you can't buy insurance across state lines? He's saying remove these lines so that more competitors are in and competition will be increased and prices will drop.
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby spongebob » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:41 am

Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby Keep The Reason » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:56 am

Rian wrote:I can't stand Trump, but to be fair, I don't see how he has "no health care plan". He said to take away the lines between the states and let competition loose. How is that not a plan? Some people may think it's not a good plan, but how is it NOT a plan? Do people not understand that currently, you can't buy insurance across state lines? He's saying remove these lines so that more competitors are in and competition will be increased and prices will drop.


OK so it's only a "plan" if your definition of a "plan" is "mindless spewing of untrue bullshit that has no meaning in real life."

If that's your definition of a plan, then Trump hits a grand slam of plans.
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby Rian » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:32 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:
Rian wrote:I can't stand Trump, but to be fair, I don't see how he has "no health care plan". He said to take away the lines between the states and let competition loose. How is that not a plan? Some people may think it's not a good plan, but how is it NOT a plan? Do people not understand that currently, you can't buy insurance across state lines? He's saying remove these lines so that more competitors are in and competition will be increased and prices will drop.


OK so it's only a "plan" if your definition of a "plan" is "mindless spewing of untrue bullshit that has no meaning in real life."

If that's your definition of a plan, then Trump hits a grand slam of plans.

Thanks for the thoughtful analysis :roll: :smt005 Clearly your definition of any opinion that doesn't match yours is it's a "mindless spewing of untrue bullshit that has no meaning in real life." :roll:

Thanks for the link, SpongeBob. I've been looking into it a bit, and I'll read your link.
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby Keep The Reason » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:38 pm

Rian wrote:Thanks for the thoughtful analysis :roll: :smt005 Clearly your definition of any opinion that doesn't match yours is it's a "mindless spewing of untrue bullshit that has no meaning in real life." :roll:


Read his link and you'll see why the "state lines" thing is bullshit and always has been. And you know what? You're pathetic with this "anything that's not my opinion" bullshit line of "rebuttal". Instead, argue back if you have any facts. It isn't my "opinion" that the state lines stuff is bullshit, it's a fact that the state lines issue is bullshit, hence Trump has no plan.

But then -- most of your worldview is already grounded in fantasy, isn't it?
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby spongebob » Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:43 pm

It's probably valid to say he has ideas about it, but not really a complete plan. The ideas aren't new, though. He's basically just repeating what he's heard conservatives say. However, he did say he would repeal the ACA and replace it with something "terrific". I always did want a "terrific" health insurance system.
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby Keep The Reason » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:06 am

spongebob wrote:However, he did say he would repeal the ACA and replace it with something "terrific". I always did want a "terrific" health insurance system.


Hey, obviously I stand corrected, lol. "Something terrific, you won't believe how terrific it's gonna be, it'll make your head spin it'll be so terrific" is a plan, I guess.
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby spongebob » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:25 am

If you go back and do some reading on the history of health insurance in the U.S., you'll find that the "system" was never "designed" at all. It arose organically, evolving through a number of different pressures that arose throughout the 20th century. Now, interestingly, this is pretty much exactly how most free market conservatives would argue is proper and right in the world. But most also agree that our system is pretty crappy. So that's an interesting contradiction right there.

As health insurance evolved and became intertwined with employment practices, an unintended marriage was solidified into American culture. This didn't happen in all developed countries and it isn't a perfect system, but ripping it out by the roots and replacing it isn't an easy task. Tweaking it is much easier and that's what we've been doing for the last 30 years or so. Republicans like to tout this fantasy about perfect capitalism and free markets, but the reality is that health care is one of the most heavily regulated and controlled markets out there and has been for some time. Before said regulation it was nothing but a nightmare and not just because of the lack of regulation but other factors as well. They also don't like to admit that health insurance adds absolutely nothing to the health care process except wasted spending on middle men who get between a patient and his/her doctor. If conservatives has any real interest in pure capitalism they would acknowledge the inefficiencies that health insurance companies introduce to the system as a whole.

The facts are this. Spending on health care is an extremely unpredictable activity. Medical costs can easily range from negligible to dramatically debt inducing and that is true even when you leave out medical costs associated with end of life or extending life when there's no hope of real recovery. Here's an example: I was recently rear-ended at a stop light. My car was totaled and all three of my family members were in the car with me. We all went to hospital for diagnostic tests; thankfully no major injuries were found. Three of us were taken by ambulance. The total bill for about an hour's worth of scans and x-rays and the ambulance ride was over $5,000! (This is tests only; no treatments). Fortunately, I don't have to pay it because the other driver hit us. But that sum amounts to a significant percentage of my pay and I'm paid pretty well. Now imagine a family living on $40,000 a year. That would be almost two months pay for them. They probably couldn't afford it and would either get the tests and just not pay or avoid the tests and risk serious injury that goes undetected until it gets much worse. There is not one single idea in all of the conservative rhetoric to address this issue. No amount of state competition would drive down prices by 75%. To me this indicates a system which is hopelessly broken and beyond repair.
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby Keep The Reason » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:07 pm

Well, Drumpf rolled out his plan.

It's pretty much a retread of past Republican ideas which have failed countless times, and points that are already in place (like HSAs and the "across state lines" fantasy). And of course there's a few "can't be dones" like the point of being transparent on pricing. "Drumpf Health Plan Recycles GOP Chestnuts" is how the article reads, and it's true.

Not that it will matter. The Drumpf Zombies will simply mouth "He has a plan! He has a plan!" which is more than enough for them.

Link

Republican front-runner Donald Trump released a seven-point plan to change the country's health care system that includes several familiar GOP proposals and one that puts him in agreement with, believe it or not, Democratic hopeful Bernie Sanders.

Right off the bat, Trump calls for the elimination of the Affordable Care Act, ringing the repeal bell that has been popular among a wide swath of Republicans and that has fueled dozens of votes to overturn Obamacare in Congress, including another failed attempt when lawmakers reconvened first thing in January.

The prime target is the individual mandate, the requirement that almost every American have or buy health insurance — or pay a penalty. "No person should be required to buy insurance unless he or she wants to," the Trump proposal declares.

Obamacare relies on the mandate to make sure it isn't just the sick and people at high risk of getting sick who buy coverage, driving up insurance costs.

While Trump decries the mandate, the idea has Republican roots. The mandate was seen as a market-friendly alternative to a national health system or a strict requirement on employers to provide coverage.

Still, the mandate and its associated tax penalties for people who don't comply has become a lightning rod for people dissatisfied with the Affordable Care Act. In 2014, the first year that the fine for lack of coverage was in place, about 7.5 million Americans paid an average penalty of $200 for not having insurance according to the IRS. In 2015, the potential penalties rose to greater of 2 percent of annual income or $325 per adult. And this year they rise again to the greater of 2.5 percent of income or $695 per adult.

In a second plank, Trump calls for the sale of health insurance plans across state lines to bolster competition by increasing the number of policies being sold. Health insurance is regulated largely at the state level. And critics of the multistate approach, a favorite of the GOP for years, say it would erode consumer protections.

Trump hedges his call for multistate plans by saying they would have to comply with regulations in each state where they are offered. It's hard to see how, if states continue to regulate insurance differently, the theoretical benefits he touts could be achieved in practice. In fact, over the years six states, including Georgia, enacted laws to encourage insurance sales across their borders and a Georgetown University analysis found that they failed to attract new plans into their markets.

Some Trump proposals would change the tax treatment of health coverage.

One would let individuals who buy insurance deduct its cost, as employers do for coverage they make available to workers. Many health economists argue that the opposite tack — eliminating the employer deduction — would be more beneficial. The employer tax break obscures the cost of health coverage and thereby contributes to health cost inflation. The benefits from the break also tends to accrue to more highly paid people. Under Obamacare, people with low-to-moderate incomes can get a tax credit to help defray the cost of insurance purchased on marketplaces.

The second proposal argues in favor of letting individuals take advantage of Health Savings Accounts, or HSAs. But that's something that is already possible, and the accounts are quite popular. Right now, those accounts are tied to high-deductible health plans.

"Is Trump calling for every American to have access to an HSA, not just those in high-deductible health plans (HDHPs)?" asks a post on Forbes.com by Ryan Ellis, an adviser on tax policy for the Conservative Reform Network. "That would seem to be undermined by his statement about how young people should want to enroll in high-deductible plans–why mention them at all?"

Then there's the chicken-in-every-pot plank that would require providers of health care to disclose prices. "Individuals should be able to shop to find the best prices for procedures, exams or any other medical-related procedure," the Trump proposal says. Not many people disagree with the intent. But it's difficult to pull off in a way that helps the average person shop. Health care prices are negotiated between insurers and providers, and people's coverage and copays vary depending on their networks and insurance particulars.

Trump also argues for a change in financing Medicaid, the joint federal and state health insurance program for the poor and disabled. His plan calls for block grants, or lump-sum payments, to the states that they could spend as they wish. The idea has been popular with Republicans going back to President Reagan, has been revived more recently by GOP governors as a way to cut costs and has been part of Republican proposals to repeal and replace Obamacare. Critics say block grants would reduce the number of people covered by Medicaid and by shifting responsibilities to the states would ultimately saddle them with greater financial burdens.

Finally, Trump throws his support behind the importation of drugs to cut costs. "Allowing consumers access to imported, safe and dependable drugs from overseas will bring more options to consumers," the proposal says. This is the one where Trump and Sanders have common ground. Sanders supports the importation of drugs from Canada and his website boasts about a 1999 bus trip that took a bunch of Americans up north to get better deals.

The Food and Drug Administration, under both Republican and Democratic presidents, has opposed drug importation on safety grounds. And drugmakers restricted supplies of medicines going to drug distributors in Canada to combat a rise in online pharmacy sales to Americans more than a decade ago.


Personally, I would NOT want drugs imported from "any country". I'd trust Canada but that's about it. Do we really want drugs from China coming into our markets? No thank you.
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Re: Republican "Debate" (Whine Tasting)

Postby spongebob » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:43 pm

That's just a whole lot of nuthin'. Why the hell would we want or need to import drugs? We make most of the world's medicine right here! How about changing the way patents work so generic drugs could be manufactured more readily? How about reforming the way investment and research into new medicine is done? That's where most of the cost of drug manufacturing comes from anyway. And although I welcome competition, this stupid idea about across state lines competition is just not going to do anything. Sure, bring it on, but it won't help anything. Despite what some people think, health insurance companies don't make enormous profit margins, so they won't be slashing their rates. And he can ditch the mandate if he likes, but that will only put us right back where we were before the ACA; people get sick or hurt and go to the hospital to get treatment. The hospital doesn't or can't turn them away even if they can't pay, so who pays for it? Anyone who has health insurance, that's who. All of those non-payers costs are passed on to us. Amazing how obvious this is. Republicans just have no decent ideas.
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