Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:10 am

Aaron wrote:What a disaster. I went to vote just now and I ended up going with Cruz, but ONLY because he seemed like the least terrible choice. I just am blow away these are the people we have to pick from to lead this nation. Seriously? Out of the whole entire US these are the people who made the cut?! Is there no one good out there??!! What a disaster.


How does it feel to be Dr. Frankenstein and be confronted by the monster you helped bring to life?

And I'm not saying the Dems are much better. They are fine with corporatism as well which is the worst monster, but at least the Dems treat minorities and women and gays and Healthcare and education and sexuality and the environment with some respect, and they haven't been taken over by a bunch of religious loons who want to turn back the clock to 1535.

The Dem's Frankenstein monster has not yet been hit with lightning like the Republican monster has. There's still time to stop it happening on the Dem side.

But for Republicans? The monster is tearing you to pieces, limb from limb. And frankly, given the racism, homophobia, misogyny, religious nincompoopism, anti-education, anti-science, and disdain for the planet your team revels in, it couldn't happen to a nicer group of people.

You guys deserve it, through and through.

Thank God I have a hope in something besides people.


Oh yeah, great. I have a bucket of sand I can jam my head into as well. That's quite a help, innit?
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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby Jesus Raves » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:21 pm

Aaron wrote:The first thing we need to do is admit that the problem starts with us. We all need to be good and desire good before we can have leaders that come forth from us who are good. But I suppose there is no one good except the Father in heaven...

Can you demonstrate any of this with evidence outside of your favorite book? If you're correct--that the people must "be good and desire good" so we can have good leaders, but, however, none are good--then no leader ever has been good, because we the people are inherently unable to be good, so we can't get a good leader no matter how hard we try--and then on top of that, there are no good people to be good leaders because, again, no one is good and how could you possibly take this literally you're not a dumb person, by any means, Aaron!
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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:14 pm

Jesus Raves wrote:
Aaron wrote:The first thing we need to do is admit that the problem starts with us. We all need to be good and desire good before we can have leaders that come forth from us who are good. But I suppose there is no one good except the Father in heaven...

Can you demonstrate any of this with evidence outside of your favorite book? If you're correct--that the people must "be good and desire good" so we can have good leaders, but, however, none are good--then no leader ever has been good, because we the people are inherently unable to be good, so we can't get a good leader no matter how hard we try--and then on top of that, there are no good people to be good leaders because, again, no one is good and how could you possibly take this literally you're not a dumb person, by any means, Aaron!


How is this even possible coming from people who believe humans are inherently corrupt and broken, and need a savior? Aaron even gives up on it in his last sentence.

This is a demonstration as to why Christianity is inherently untenable. It surrenders to the idea that we just cannot ever actually overcome our "corrupt natures", and thus need this entity that is resolutely absent.

Thus it's at its core a nihilistic doctrine and should be discarded.
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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby Aaron » Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:23 pm

Jesus Raves wrote:
Aaron wrote:The first thing we need to do is admit that the problem starts with us. We all need to be good and desire good before we can have leaders that come forth from us who are good. But I suppose there is no one good except the Father in heaven...

Can you demonstrate any of this with evidence outside of your favorite book? If you're correct--that the people must "be good and desire good" so we can have good leaders, but, however, none are good--then no leader ever has been good, because we the people are inherently unable to be good, so we can't get a good leader no matter how hard we try--and then on top of that, there are no good people to be good leaders because, again, no one is good and how could you possibly take this literally you're not a dumb person, by any means, Aaron!

I think it has been demonstrated throughout history that when the people in society are morally upright or at least principled in some way then the entire society moves in that direction including their rulers and government, but when the members of that society lose their respect for those principles then the entire society begins to deteriorate and bad leaders are just a symptom of that.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else" - C.S. Lewis
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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby Aaron » Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:26 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:How is this even possible coming from people who believe humans are inherently corrupt and broken, and need a savior? Aaron even gives up on it in his last sentence.

This is a demonstration as to why Christianity is inherently untenable. It surrenders to the idea that we just cannot ever actually overcome our "corrupt natures", and thus need this entity that is resolutely absent.

Thus it's at its core a nihilistic doctrine and should be discarded.

Ha! Nihilistic. Truthful is more like it and it is not without hope, where would we be without all the great revivals that happened in Europe throughout the centuries? Or even in America the last few hundred years? Christianity directly confronts the corruption in man and offers a way out: God himself!
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else" - C.S. Lewis
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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby spongebob » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:43 pm

Aaron wrote:Lol, he's not a good president.


Empty rhetoric. What has been "bad" about his administration? Aside from the passage of the ACA, what would you name?

And what good does Obama do now? He's gone.


What's the point of this comment? Every President becomes a lame duck in their final year. And btw, the majority of Presidents experience lower approval ratings the longer they are in office as well, both parties included.

I think the Bern has some good intentions and I think he's by far the sincerest of all the major candidates, but a lot of his ideas are impractical.


They all have good intentions as they relate to the people they serve. What counts are the number of ideas and policies that they help to bring to fruition.

Hillary is just awful, I'm sure she also has some good intentions, but she can't even hide her corruption, it's just bursting at the seams.


Name specifics, Aaron. If all you can pin on her is her use of a personal email server then that's not, in the grand scheme of Presidential politics, much of a serious crime. What can you name specifically that bothers you about her policy wise.

The first thing we need to do is admit that the problem starts with us. We all need to be good and desire good before we can have leaders that come forth from us who are good. But I suppose there is no one good except the Father in heaven...


That's just bullshit. If god is real, he would want us to work together to solve problems and make life good for everyone. Any god who wouldn't want that is a devil, not a god. But you are correct that the enemy is us. If people insist on being selfish and dogmatic when faced with serious problems then they won't likely get anything solved. So here's where I point the finger at the extremist conservatives who embody this extreme dogmatism. No compromising with President Obama in 8 years of office. None. Not a single shred. No amount of sincerity on his part can overcome that obstruction. He was elected by popular vote, so that is an imperative that Republicans should have taken into account. So are you actually just speaking in code and saying that you don't trust anything a Democrat does because you refuse to compromise on any level?
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby Aaron » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:11 pm

spongebob wrote:Empty rhetoric. What has been "bad" about his administration? Aside from the passage of the ACA, what would you name?

He spent a lot of time campaigning. Has our federal government ever been so ineffective or stuck in gridlock? I'm not sure, I haven't been around that long. But I wouldn't call him a good president of the USA, more like a president who doesn't seem to be able to lead so he works around the system. That's not a good thing, even if he is doing good things.

spongebob wrote:What's the point of this comment? Every President becomes a lame duck in their final year. And btw, the majority of Presidents experience lower approval ratings the longer they are in office as well, both parties included.

The point of the comment was to ask what the point of your comment was. I'm lamenting the choices for the next president and you're talking about what I think of Obama. Relevance?

spongebob wrote:They all have good intentions as they relate to the people they serve. What counts are the number of ideas and policies that they help to bring to fruition.

Ha! Or just who it is that they are serving. Themselves? Their financial backers? Or the good of the nation even if it costs them personally?

spongebob wrote:Name specifics, Aaron. If all you can pin on her is her use of a personal email server then that's not, in the grand scheme of Presidential politics, much of a serious crime. What can you name specifically that bothers you about her policy wise.

First of all it's a huge deal. I mean if there's anything the government preaches to it's employees it's security. They're nuts about it, and rightfully so. And then she as a leader goes and does something like that? Are you kidding me? She knows better. Give me a break Hillary. Who do you think you are? You're not above the system. Lead by example. If you're faithful in the little things you'll be faithful in larger things. I think a problem is I am familiar with the philosophy the government has about security and how intensely they push it onto their employees and then when I hear about that I'm just like, wow, what a joke.

spongebob wrote:That's just bullshit. If god is real, he would want us to work together to solve problems and make life good for everyone. Any god who wouldn't want that is a devil, not a god.

I said the Father was good, not bad. A good God would want people to work together.

spongebob wrote:But you are correct that the enemy is us. If people insist on being selfish and dogmatic when faced with serious problems then they won't likely get anything solved. So here's where I point the finger at the extremist conservatives who embody this extreme dogmatism. No compromising with President Obama in 8 years of office. None. Not a single shred. No amount of sincerity on his part can overcome that obstruction.

Yeah, I agree with you actually. I'm sick of this party bickering. It's like people just think they have to be one or the other. They don't have to be. We should be able to find common goals and work together to actually help people.

spongebob wrote:He was elected by popular vote, so that is an imperative that Republicans should have taken into account. So are you actually just speaking in code and saying that you don't trust anything a Democrat does because you refuse to compromise on any level?

Lol, no. Were you even paying attention. The only candidate left that I have a bit of respect left for is Bernie, though I think what seem like his good intentions are impractical in how he wants to implement them. I want to help people. I will polarize, but only because I believe in what I believe in, not because I belong to a party. Screw parties. We need change from the bottom up. Top down change doesn't work. It never has and never will. We need God.
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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby Aaron » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:39 pm

I have been dark and cynical and snarky in my posts here. That's not who I want to be. I'm sorry about that. No matter how bad things get we can always have hope and we can have grace for those who've made mistakes and we can forgive and not pass blame and I can take responsibility for the mistakes that I've made and the opportunities to improve the life of others that I've passed up. We can choose love and I choose love, I will stumble, but I choose love.
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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby spongebob » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:46 pm

Aaron wrote:He spent a lot of time campaigning.


Same as every President. And he's had to do a lot of speaking to inform the public about how Republicans have blocked everything.

spongebob wrote:The point of the comment was to ask what the point of your comment was. I'm lamenting the choices for the next president and you're talking about what I think of Obama. Relevance?


My point was that your standards are out of whack. If you can't judge our current president in a real and reasonable sense then you can't judge the potential presidents either.

Ha! Or just who it is that they are serving. Themselves? Their financial backers? Or the good of the nation even if it costs them personally?


There is usually some of all of that, depending on what circumstances arise. This is the nature of how we select our leaders. People simply expect something in return.

First of all it's a huge deal. I mean if there's anything the government preaches to it's employees it's security. They're nuts about it, and rightfully so. And then she as a leader goes and does something like that? Are you kidding me? She knows better. Give me a break Hillary. Who do you think you are? You're not above the system. Lead by example.


It was a violation of security policy, I want to make that clear, but you are blowing it way out of proportion. There was no abuse of power as we've seen some politicians do. I'm more curious as to why she did it. There's a good chance her email server was more secure than the governments. Basically you just see this in a shallow, black and white way and that's that. You've fallen for the flame game of picking anything that can be picked and making it into a mountain.

If you're faithful in the little things you'll be faithful in larger things. I think a problem is I am familiar with the philosophy the government has about security and how intensely they push it onto their employees and then when I hear about that I'm just like, wow, what a joke.


You're making two mistakes here. One is that you are playing the slippery slope fallacy. Hillary's use of this email server makes her guilty of that and nothing else. You can't infer that she would do something more because of it. And you can't infer much from what little you think you know about government security either. At the level she's working at, you have no knowledge at all. So basically you are just making a lot of assumptions. The problem here is that government officials break rules on a daily basis, both parties. When it's you like, you dismiss it. When it's someone you don't like, you hammer it. You don't treat either with real consideration of the facts. That's pure and simple bias.

Yeah, I agree with you actually. I'm sick of this party bickering. It's like people just think they have to be one or the other. They don't have to be. We should be able to find common goals and work together to actually help people.


Then by all means, don't vote for right wing extremists. If you want to promote Republicans, promote someone like John Kasich. Republicans don't have to be nut job extremists. Republicans and Democrats used to work together to solve problems.

Lol, no. Were you even paying attention. The only candidate left that I have a bit of respect left for is Bernie, though I think what seem like his good intentions are impractical in how he wants to implement them. I want to help people. I will polarize, but only because I believe in what I believe in, not because I belong to a party. Screw parties. We need change from the bottom up. Top down change doesn't work. It never has and never will.


I was paying attention. You didn't say you supported Bernie's ideas. You said you thought he had good intentions. As I said, I think they all have good intentions as they relate to their supporters, and that includes Bernie. Republican's believe he wants to destroy the United States. They believe the same of Hillary. That's complete nonsense. I don't even believe that of the most extreme right wingers. The worst I believe of them is that they want to transform the country into a vision that favors right wing extremism and Christianity. What kind of idiot wants to destroy his own country?

But all of your talk is irrelevant if you vote for whoever the Republicans put on the ticket in November because it will be either Trump or perhaps Rubio, both of whom are pretty extreme.

We need God.


That's the ultimate in top - down thinking.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby spongebob » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:50 pm

Aaron wrote:I have been dark and cynical and snarky in my posts here. That's not who I want to be. I'm sorry about that. No matter how bad things get we can always have hope and we can have grace for those who've made mistakes and we can forgive and not pass blame and I can take responsibility for the mistakes that I've made and the opportunities to improve the life of others that I've passed up. We can choose love and I choose love, I will stumble, but I choose love.


This is exactly my point. If all you can do is gripe about the media driven stories about Hillary or Obama or Trump, then you aren't contributing one thing to the solution. You aren't even having a real conversation; you're just a proxy for the same political argument of both parties. Contribute some real ideas and real judgement and you might come away with something worth while.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby Aaron » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:49 pm

spongebob wrote:Same as every President. And he's had to do a lot of speaking to inform the public about how Republicans have blocked everything.

I wouldn't hoenstly know. I don't have any objective facts on the average time spent campaigning by presidents.

I found this chart (scroll down a bit), not sure whether the data is accurate or how it was compiled, but it does fit with my general impressions. Though in reality he's only following in the steps of his predecessors in the dramatic increase in fundraisers.

spongebob wrote:My point was that your standards are out of whack. If you can't judge our current president in a real and reasonable sense then you can't judge the potential presidents either.

Ah, I see your logic. Well I don't see in any of our candidates the potential to unite the country.

spongebob wrote:It was a violation of security policy, I want to make that clear, but you are blowing it way out of proportion. There was no abuse of power as we've seen some politicians do. I'm more curious as to why she did it. There's a good chance her email server was more secure than the governments. Basically you just see this in a shallow, black and white way and that's that. You've fallen for the flame game of picking anything that can be picked and making it into a mountain.

I don't think I am blowing it way out of proportion, but as I said I think I have a little bit of a different perspective than most because of my familiarity with government security. It really is that serious with them and Hillary has got to know that.

spongebob wrote:You're making two mistakes here. One is that you are playing the slippery slope fallacy. Hillary's use of this email server makes her guilty of that and nothing else. You can't infer that she would do something more because of it. And you can't infer much from what little you think you know about government security either. At the level she's working at, you have no knowledge at all. So basically you are just making a lot of assumptions. The problem here is that government officials break rules on a daily basis, both parties. When it's you like, you dismiss it. When it's someone you don't like, you hammer it. You don't treat either with real consideration of the facts. That's pure and simple bias.

You're right one bad mistake doesn't mean she's only going to make bad mistakes. But then I suppose you could not infer my bias either (though I would like to think I have not taken it easy on anyone because I happen to agree with more of what they say, have I? Have I been easy on anyone? I think in truth I am even harder on Cruz or Rubio because of who they claim to be, not sure if that's right or not, but I do think I am, if they claim to be Christians then they ought to live like them, but on the other hand I do want to always show grace to others, because we all mess up, that grace I suppose I also ought to extend to Hillary, and I will now that I think of it. Thanks spongebob.). Or the claim that Trump would stink at business being president because he's made some bad decisions in his private business.

spongebob wrote:Then by all means, don't vote for right wing extremists. If you want to promote Republicans, promote someone like John Kasich. Republicans don't have to be nut job extremists. Republicans and Democrats used to work together to solve problems.

I thought about it, but the problem I ran into when voting was I thought Trump would be even worse than Cruz and Cruz had the best shot at beating Trump even though I am not a fan of Cruz either. It worked sort of, Cruz ended up winning Alaska I think. But that's why I was bummed yesterday, it was like I had to pick someone I didn't like so that someone I liked even less wouldn't win!

spongebob wrote:I was paying attention. You didn't say you supported Bernie's ideas. You said you thought he had good intentions. As I said, I think they all have good intentions as they relate to their supporters, and that includes Bernie. Republican's believe he wants to destroy the United States. They believe the same of Hillary. That's complete nonsense. I don't even believe that of the most extreme right wingers. The worst I believe of them is that they want to transform the country into a vision that favors right wing extremism and Christianity. What kind of idiot wants to destroy his own country?

But all of your talk is irrelevant if you vote for whoever the Republicans put on the ticket in November because it will be either Trump or perhaps Rubio, both of whom are pretty extreme.

I think he cares about people and wants to help people. I think that's great. It seems like he's not in the pocket of someone else and I think that's great too. I am not in favor of a legislated Christian state. That is like a married bachelor. It completely misses the point of the Gospel and it would be a disaster of a government (like when we tried to ban alcohol). I am in favor of individuals being saved by God and having their own lives transformed so that the country is transformed because the people who live in it are different. That is what I meant by bottom up. I believe God is the one who created bottom up organization (snow flakes, organisms, the Body of Christ).

Yeah, it's hard to be excited about the choices. As with the Republican vote it will likely become a choice for me on who is the least bad.
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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby Jesus Raves » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:26 pm

Aaron wrote:
Jesus Raves wrote:
Aaron wrote:The first thing we need to do is admit that the problem starts with us. We all need to be good and desire good before we can have leaders that come forth from us who are good. But I suppose there is no one good except the Father in heaven...

Can you demonstrate any of this with evidence outside of your favorite book? If you're correct--that the people must "be good and desire good" so we can have good leaders, but, however, none are good--then no leader ever has been good, because we the people are inherently unable to be good, so we can't get a good leader no matter how hard we try--and then on top of that, there are no good people to be good leaders because, again, no one is good and how could you possibly take this literally you're not a dumb person, by any means, Aaron!

I think it has been demonstrated throughout history that when the people in society are morally upright or at least principled in some way then the entire society moves in that direction including their rulers and government, but when the members of that society lose their respect for those principles then the entire society begins to deteriorate and bad leaders are just a symptom of that.

You completely ignored where I demonstrated that your belief is logically inconsistent. What's your response to that?

After you've explained that, we'll see if you can prove this assertion about historical "good" leaders.
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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:00 pm

Aaron wrote:We need God.


I absolutely agree with you that you need god. You need him big time, that is for sure.

So here's what you do. Anyone is free to write in the best candidate he or she thinks will do the best job. Stick to your principles, and write in Jesus. You will have voted, and you will have voted the best imaginable candidate. Why, he's not even dead!

And I say that to all Christians who are in this dilemma. Please, vote according to your staunchly and deeply held convictions, and vote Jesus. He's the perfect candidate for you all. Millions of you, all voting for Jesus! Think of it! Think of how blessed our nation would be!

Why, it's enough to make baby Jesus laugh.
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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby spongebob » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:20 pm

Aaron wrote:Ah, I see your logic. Well I don't see in any of our candidates the potential to unite the country.


Ah, now that is an entirely different animal. Yes, I would agree with that. The country is deeply divided and our selections for leadership reflect that. As we both said, our enemy is us. I'm not sure there is such a person in our current climate because anyone who represents either side too much is despised by the other. Anyone who is in the middle is deeply despised by the right for sure and probably some on the left as well. I'm comfortable with a moderate because a moderate doesn't tilt policy too much in either direction. But in our current environment, there is a giant mass on the far right, a moderate volume in the middle and a large mass on the left. Those on the extremes seem to hate those in the middle as much as the other extreme, and from my experience the far right appears to label anything approaching moderate as extreme liberalism. So, my point in all of this is that the people are the problem, not the politicians. We need to stop this extremist nonsense and embrace moderation and compromise. The co-worker I told you about thinks Bernie and Hillary want to destroy the country. That is extremism and that is what is actually destroying the country. If Americans really want to understand why Islamic terrorists do what they do, look no further than our own people. We're different only in degree of extremism.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: Trump... A Match Made in Heaven (TM)

Postby Jesus Raves » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:22 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:... write in Jesus ...
... vote Jesus ...

Unfortunately, Jesus is not a valid candidate, since he was not born a U.S. citizen. Otherwise, we'd be aces.
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