Trump

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Re: Trump

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:25 pm

Rian wrote:KTR, you need to fix the area around the "math doesn't lie" - you quoted me but forgot to put quote tags around it so it looks like you wrote it, and it confuses the post - plus you didn't respond to it. I'll wait for you to fix it before I reply. If you're past the edit limit, maybe you can copy your post, fix it and repost it, and I'll delete your old post for you if you'd like. But it's too confusing to respond to in its current state.


No it's not, you could've just pointed it out across a wider reply but whatever. I'm not going to repost the whole thing, I'll just address the section and you can deal with it as you wish.

Here it is:

Rian wrote:Re your "the math doesn't lie" - Stop, you're making me laugh so hard it's hurting!! That's hilarious!!! Talk about logical fallacies! A right whopper of an Argumentum Ad Verecundium fallacy just for starters. Wow!


First of all, I replied to it that there are no logical fallacies in my very first part of my response. Second, not only are there no logical fallacies, the thing you've decided is one is least of all that one.

Citing statistics as a source for assertion is not "appealing to authority" anymore than YOU are doing so with your citation of Pew's statistic, you silly person (you accusing me of it applies as much to to who is doing it yourself in that case. But I am saying appealing to statistics is NOT an appeal to authority, it's an appeal to MATH and FACTS. But you don't seem to know this).

So -- I am pointing out the math (stats) showing a marked increase in Nones and Atheists. I am further pointing out that the argument there's a lessening of Atheism is a false interpretation of the stats since you're citing a smaller percentage in overall populations. This is ONLY true because theists are swiftly out-reproducing all other demographics, particularly Hindus ans Muslims. This doesn't bode well for you Christians at all, as European nations are not only learning, but are backlashing against.

Overall, religions as worldview people make after careful consideration (as opposed to being born into it with no say at all, raised in it with no hope of countering it with competitive ideas, etc.) are falling more and more out of favor. The more educated a person becomes, the less likely they are to adhere to religion and other forms of superstitious nonsense. It's not a clause written in platinum, it's just the general trend. Especially in the USA.
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Re: Trump

Postby Simplyme » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:48 pm

Is it not priceless, this coming from someone preaching about making an " effort to educate oneself on logical thinking "?
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Trump

Postby spongebob » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:01 am

Not sure how this thread evolved into its current discussion, but whatever...

I had to comment on KTR's assertions that religion is fading away and his prediction of its eventual demise. Wrong! Rian appears to object as well, but is doing so from an extremely weak position. Turn your head a bit and view it again. Just take a gander at this website: https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... /2122.html. This is the CIA's list of countries and the religions that dominate them. Note how few countries have less than 90% religious adherents. Also note the tiny sliver of admitted atheists. I would argue that that number is under reported because many, many atheists do not self-identify for a number of reasons, most having to do with their personal freedom and safety. But nonetheless, even if you quadruple the number of reported atheists in most countries, they still don't exceed 20%. Take a look at this site: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/at ... 46291.html, and you will see that there are a few that are actually pretty atheist, but this list includes China! China may be atheist, but they are certainly not without mysticism and mythology! Really, we're talking about a few European nations where religion is less valued at any significant level. But even there, religion is still going pretty strong. I see absolutely no evidence that religion is dying out at all. If anything, religion has become less of a ritualistic part of people's lives as science and technology has dispelled much of the fear that once controlled people. But as science encroaches into religion's territory, religion finds new places to invade. And we are living in a civility bubble. If this bubble ever bursts, and it probably will, religion will make a powerful comeback. Despite having a country that literally runs on technology, we still have nearly 100% of public figures professing to a religious belief of some kind simply because the public at large won't accept a leader at any level that won't. Of course we know some of these leaders are just giving it lip service, but the pressure is clearly so great that extremely few dare to challenge it. I dare say that even 5,000 years from now, if humans have found a way to infest other planets and engineer their lifespans to exceed 500 years, people will still be worshiping some kind of idiotic god.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
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Re: Trump

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:32 pm

spongebob wrote:Not sure how this thread evolved into its current discussion, but whatever...

I had to comment on KTR's assertions that religion is fading away and his prediction of its eventual demise. Wrong! Rian appears to object as well, but is doing so from an extremely weak position. Turn your head a bit and view it again. Just take a gander at this website: https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... /2122.html. This is the CIA's list of countries and the religions that dominate them. Note how few countries have less than 90% religious adherents. Also note the tiny sliver of admitted atheists. I would argue that that number is under reported because many, many atheists do not self-identify for a number of reasons, most having to do with their personal freedom and safety. But nonetheless, even if you quadruple the number of reported atheists in most countries, they still don't exceed 20%. Take a look at this site: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/at ... 46291.html, and you will see that there are a few that are actually pretty atheist, but this list includes China! China may be atheist, but they are certainly not without mysticism and mythology! Really, we're talking about a few European nations where religion is less valued at any significant level. But even there, religion is still going pretty strong. I see absolutely no evidence that religion is dying out at all. If anything, religion has become less of a ritualistic part of people's lives as science and technology has dispelled much of the fear that once controlled people. But as science encroaches into religion's territory, religion finds new places to invade. And we are living in a civility bubble. If this bubble ever bursts, and it probably will, religion will make a powerful comeback. Despite having a country that literally runs on technology, we still have nearly 100% of public figures professing to a religious belief of some kind simply because the public at large won't accept a leader at any level that won't. Of course we know some of these leaders are just giving it lip service, but the pressure is clearly so great that extremely few dare to challenge it. I dare say that even 5,000 years from now, if humans have found a way to infest other planets and engineer their lifespans to exceed 500 years, people will still be worshiping some kind of idiotic god.


I do not deny that we are still up to beyond our eyeballs in theists worldwide. After all, there's 7 billion people on this marble and most of them believe. At the same time a couple of thousand years ago you could easily argue there was not a single Christian on the planet. Not one. Anywhere. Zero.

If, at the time that the gospels were making the rounds, some KTR in the past argued "The trend is for Christianity to become one of the largest belief systems in the world", some spongebob in the past would have countered it just as you have (sans the web based source citations of course).

But there are clear and distinct elements in play today that lean me towards this speculation (that religions are fading). first, our ability to communicate so easily via the internet and cell phones allows ideas to rocket around the globe in a matter of minutes, rather than decades. Tens of thousands (or more) closeted atheists discovered they were not alone and that gave them the courage to become open. Like anything else, the full measure of this will take time -- considerable time given the remaining prejudices against atheists around the globe -- but there is no reason that we cannot look to the gay paradigm and imagine the atheist paradigm might not be the same (in some way's it's easier. Atheists can get married for instance whereas gays had to fight for that right [and may lose it shortly]).

Second, science and it's clear impact on our lives has really highlighted the massive cognitive dissonance theists have to embrace to have their mythology thought of as "real". In the past, there was hardly any question of god's role in human affairs. He caused the sun to rise. He made it rain. He punished with droughts or earthquakes. He opened every flower. Forgave us our transgression, etc. Today? All known to be utter hogwash --except that last one -- and not particularly believed by anyone. God has gone from the key driver of every action in existence to a mysterious entity behind a curtain manipulating shit in secretive ways, and even that hardly. There is a palpable trend line we can see where god has been reduced to just a shadow of his previous incarnations, because science has clearly demonstrated none of that stuff is needed.

Since science cannot address the "woo" of religion, like, "Does god really forgive transgressions?", theists cling desperately to those unsupported and non-demonstrable claims as a final and last refuge. Granted, they are well protected in that venue because they know one cannot "prove it isn't so" -- but we also know that that particular fallacy is the very first step we all know and deride when it makes its transparent -- and usually early -- appearance. Before, god's existence was simply taken for granted by almost everyone. Today? Not so much.

Third, it's is also VERY evident to people how religions are causing massive harm. Despite all the pontificating and finger pointing, we all know that people who fly airplanes into buildings shrieking "Allah hu ackbar!" are very much driven by their religious convictions. There are certainly other reasons that make a person susceptible to such mindless drivel, but that doesn't change the stark reality that the religious ideology is indeed, mindless drivel. Same can be said for the christian terrorists we see in the USA, murdering doctors and their unrelenting hatred of gays -- all of that is either rooted in religious beliefs, or exacerbated and fully exploited by religious beliefs.

Unfortunately, and this may be the curmudgeon/cynic/pessimist in me, I think we're just heading for a very destructive hot war with the two religious ideologies of Christianity and Islam. Both sides have been breeding fanatics for decades, and both sides consider an apocalypse inevitable, and both sides consider the other as apostates and heretics of such a high degree that the dogs of war will let slip. Hell, even Nixon was concerned about it back in the 1990's:

"Beyond Peace"

Finally, in Beyond Peace, Nixon called upon U.S. leaders to take a sophisticated approach to the Muslim world. The U.S. he wrote, “must learn to view the Muslim world not as a unified, radical geopolitical force bent on confronting the West but rather as a diverse cultural and ethnic grouping bounded by a faith in Islam and a legacy of political turbulence.” The Muslim world, he noted, sits astride key areas of the globe such as the Persian Gulf, the Strait of Hormuz, the Suez Canal, and the Strait of Malacca. He expressed concern that “throughout the Muslim world . . . there are rapidly growing fundamentalist movements . . . whose first loyalty is to the extreme Muslim fundamentalist religion with its roots in Iran.” The major long-term threat in the Muslim world, wrote Nixon, is Iran. The U.S. must not only contain Iran’s influence, he continued, but also “be prepared to assist ethnic and religious factions in Iran that oppose the Tehran regime.”

We are in a “clash of civilizations” with a portion of the Muslim world, Nixon explained. Fundamentalist Islam, he continued, “is a strong faith. Its appeal is religious, not secular. It appeals to the soul, not the body. Secular Western values,” he further warned, “cannot compete with this faith.” Nixon believed, however, that if the peoples of the Islamic world “are able to chart their own destiny,” instead of submitting to the rule of fundamentalist regimes like Iran’s that seek to “turn back the clock to the twelfth century,” then Islamic extremism will not triumph.


Fourth, there is a growing number of outrages against atheists, particularly in the Indonesian areas, where atheists are hacked to death and their murderers are let free simply for having a different belief. This is a horrific but effective way to piss atheists off to the point where they will come out en masse and even partner with sympathetic theists to bring such injustices to a halt.

Fifth, there are a growing number of books and authors and institutions becoming more foundational to anti-theistic worldviews that will perpetuate the blossoming atheist movement. The books are legion, and they are compelling. The institutions are things like FFRF, AU, and The Clergy Project --- an organization that literally helps people make the transition to being an atheist trapped in a role they no longer consider viable. And the conferences are growing ever larger, and going global.

Sixth: Religions die. They may be around a really long time, but eventually they crap out. Not too many worshipers of Kulkulkan around. The Isis/Osiris religions are dust. Tens of thousands --maybe vastly more -- of different religions are simply gone. And it's unlikely they are coming back. Supplanted by something else? Perhaps. But extinct is extinct regardless of whether it evolves into something else.

So, does all this mean religion is going to be wiped away? Not for a long, long time. And I concede that there maybe something in the human makeup that will preclude some kind of woo-ishness from ever being expunged. And maybe it shouldn't be-- maybe that desire fuels imagination and creativity. But as monolithic organizations, as particular religions, I think it's fair to conclude they are trending towards their demise, for the reasons I give above.

And it bears repeating so it's remembered: Once upon a time, Judaism/Hinduism/Christianity/Islam all could very solidly be called "a sliver" of the world's belief systems. But they didn't remain that way.
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Re: Trump

Postby spongebob » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:19 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:I do not deny that we are still up to beyond our eyeballs in theists worldwide. After all, there's 7 billion people on this marble and most of them believe. At the same time a couple of thousand years ago you could easily argue there was not a single Christian on the planet. Not one. Anywhere. Zero.


Yes, but nearly every human practiced some form of religion, just not Christianity. I understood you to say that religion in general was destined for obsolescence. Christianity may well fade away, but I fully expect it will be replaced with other religions. And by 2100 that number is predicted to be as high as 15 billion; double what we have today. 90% of those new people will be theists.

If, at the time that the gospels were making the rounds, some KTR in the past argued "The trend is for Christianity to become one of the largest belief systems in the world", some spongebob in the past would have countered it just as you have (sans the web based source citations of course).


I'm sure that's the case, but they could have just as easily been right. There is nothing about Christianity that made it bullet proof. But had it failed, it would not have been replaced by non-belief. People converted to Christianity from other religions. Christianity and Islam are both considered to be children of Judaism.

But there are clear and distinct elements in play today that lean me towards this speculation (that religions are fading). first, our ability to communicate so easily via the internet and cell phones allows ideas to rocket around the globe in a matter of minutes, rather than decades. Tens of thousands (or more) closeted atheists discovered they were not alone and that gave them the courage to become open. Like anything else, the full measure of this will take time -- considerable time given the remaining prejudices against atheists around the globe -- but there is no reason that we cannot look to the gay paradigm and imagine the atheist paradigm might not be the same (in some way's it's easier. Atheists can get married for instance whereas gays had to fight for that right [and may lose it shortly]).


All of the things that technology offers can be leveraged by religions as well, and they have done this in spades. I wonder what you might have said if someone told you 20 years ago that the Internet would be used by Islamic Jihadists to recruit suburban teens in middle America who weren't even raised as Muslims. And I hate to be the one to point out that homosexual rights are no more secure than minority rights. Didn't we think that racism had finally died out? Look again; it's alive an well in good ole Amurica.

Second, science and it's clear impact on our lives has really highlighted the massive cognitive dissonance theists have to embrace to have their mythology thought of as "real". In the past, there was hardly any question of god's role in human affairs. He caused the sun to rise. He made it rain. He punished with droughts or earthquakes. He opened every flower. Forgave us our transgression, etc. Today? All known to be utter hogwash --except that last one -- and not particularly believed by anyone. God has gone from the key driver of every action in existence to a mysterious entity behind a curtain manipulating shit in secretive ways, and even that hardly. There is a palpable trend line we can see where god has been reduced to just a shadow of his previous incarnations, because science has clearly demonstrated none of that stuff is needed.


I think science and technology will continue to put pressure on religious beliefs to evolve, but they won't simply go away just because [insert new scientific finding here]. If anything I've learned is true then it is absolutely true that human beings are hard wired to believe in god. Human beings have the unique proclivity to consistently choose the wrong thing when the right thing is easily available. Religion is one of the best examples of this and until this tendency changes, nothing will change with respect to religion.

Since science cannot address the "woo" of religion, like, "Does god really forgive transgressions?", theists cling desperately to those unsupported and non-demonstrable claims as a final and last refuge. Granted, they are well protected in that venue because they know one cannot "prove it isn't so" -- but we also know that that particular fallacy is the very first step we all know and deride when it makes its transparent -- and usually early -- appearance. Before, god's existence was simply taken for granted by almost everyone. Today? Not so much.


I think you are vastly underestimating the space that exists where religion flourishes. I don't know how much contact you have with Christians or Muslims but I am very close to many and I can assure you that science and technology has had virtually no affect on the depth of their faith and belief. If anything it's an enabler. The smart ones find ways to incorporate reality within their mysticism. The stupid ones just deny reality and they have no problem doing that. KTR, the very fact that a growing number of people in the year 2016 deny the value of vaccines should puncture your conclusions on this. These are not dumb, uneducated farm hands; these are college educated, well bred middle class people with 4 bedroom homes and two cars. Basically, you are just underestimating the power of denial.

Third, it's is also VERY evident to people how religions are causing massive harm. Despite all the pontificating and finger pointing, we all know that people who fly airplanes into buildings shrieking "Allah hu ackbar!" are very much driven by their religious convictions. There are certainly other reasons that make a person susceptible to such mindless drivel, but that doesn't change the stark reality that the religious ideology is indeed, mindless drivel. Same can be said for the christian terrorists we see in the USA, murdering doctors and their unrelenting hatred of gays -- all of that is either rooted in religious beliefs, or exacerbated and fully exploited by religious beliefs.


You couldn't be more wrong about this. Yeah, a few people are aware of the harm religion causes, but "People" are not. It's abundantly clear that Christians and Muslims would argue the exact opposite. They will gladly point a finger at one another, but that's not at all the same thing as pointing their finger at "religion". In fact, the continued existence of religious friction is a sustaining force for the very belief in religion.

Unfortunately, and this may be the curmudgeon/cynic/pessimist in me, I think we're just heading for a very destructive hot war with the two religious ideologies of Christianity and Islam. Both sides have been breeding fanatics for decades, and both sides consider an apocalypse inevitable, and both sides consider the other as apostates and heretics of such a high degree that the dogs of war will let slip. Hell, even Nixon was concerned about it back in the 1990's:



Finally, in Beyond Peace, Nixon called upon U.S. leaders to take a sophisticated approach to the Muslim world. The U.S. he wrote, “must learn to view the Muslim world not as a unified, radical geopolitical force bent on confronting the West but rather as a diverse cultural and ethnic grouping bounded by a faith in Islam and a legacy of political turbulence.” The Muslim world, he noted, sits astride key areas of the globe such as the Persian Gulf, the Strait of Hormuz, the Suez Canal, and the Strait of Malacca. He expressed concern that “throughout the Muslim world . . . there are rapidly growing fundamentalist movements . . . whose first loyalty is to the extreme Muslim fundamentalist religion with its roots in Iran.” The major long-term threat in the Muslim world, wrote Nixon, is Iran. The U.S. must not only contain Iran’s influence, he continued, but also “be prepared to assist ethnic and religious factions in Iran that oppose the Tehran regime.”

We are in a “clash of civilizations” with a portion of the Muslim world, Nixon explained. Fundamentalist Islam, he continued, “is a strong faith. Its appeal is religious, not secular. It appeals to the soul, not the body. Secular Western values,” he further warned, “cannot compete with this faith.” Nixon believed, however, that if the peoples of the Islamic world “are able to chart their own destiny,” instead of submitting to the rule of fundamentalist regimes like Iran’s that seek to “turn back the clock to the twelfth century,” then Islamic extremism will not triumph.


Yes, this is precisely what I'm talking about. Two competing factions will never abandon their positions. It might be necessary to completely destroy one for the other to ever begin to fade away, but that is a far fetched idea.

Fourth, there is a growing number of outrages against atheists, particularly in the Indonesian areas, where atheists are hacked to death and their murderers are let free simply for having a different belief. This is a horrific but effective way to piss atheists off to the point where they will come out en masse and even partner with sympathetic theists to bring such injustices to a halt.


Atheists en masse? It is to laugh... :lol: Get all of us atheists together and you'll have what, a large group of intellectual nerds? Just too funny.

Fifth, there are a growing number of books and authors and institutions becoming more foundational to anti-theistic worldviews that will perpetuate the blossoming atheist movement. The books are legion, and they are compelling. The institutions are things like FFRF, AU, and The Clergy Project --- an organization that literally helps people make the transition to being an atheist trapped in a role they no longer consider viable. And the conferences are growing ever larger, and going global.


KTR, this looks more like you are trying to convince yourself of this.

Sixth: Religions die. They may be around a really long time, but eventually they crap out. Not too many worshipers of Kulkulkan around. The Isis/Osiris religions are dust. Tens of thousands --maybe vastly more -- of different religions are simply gone. And it's unlikely they are coming back. Supplanted by something else? Perhaps. But extinct is extinct regardless of whether it evolves into something else.


And you do know that new ones are created every day, right?

So, does all this mean religion is going to be wiped away? Not for a long, long time. And I concede that there maybe something in the human makeup that will preclude some kind of woo-ishness from ever being expunged. And maybe it shouldn't be-- maybe that desire fuels imagination and creativity. But as monolithic organizations, as particular religions, I think it's fair to conclude they are trending towards their demise, for the reasons I give above.


I think its adorable that you believe this. You need to consider more realism in your life, but then again maybe it would cause nightmares.

And it bears repeating so it's remembered: Once upon a time, Judaism/Hinduism/Christianity/Islam all could very solidly be called "a sliver" of the world's belief systems. But they didn't remain that way.


I said this already, but it bears repeating, before them were religions by the dozen and after them will be religions by the dozen. Religion doesn't die out, it evolves. Maybe in a million years it will be gone, but then again, why would any of us expect human being to be around in that time.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
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Re: Trump

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:26 pm

Well, you make some fair points, but don't mind if I just ignore the snarky ones.
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Re: Trump

Postby spongebob » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:39 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:Well, you make some fair points, but don't mind if I just ignore the snarky ones.


Actually I was going for humor, but maybe I'm just too cynical. Sorry to dump a load of pessimism on you, but I've just come to terms with this reality. It's just a big, giant shit show, man. Might as well wallow in it. :smt005
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Re: Trump

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:55 pm

spongebob wrote:Actually I was going for humor, but maybe I'm just too cynical. Sorry to dump a load of pessimism on you, but I've just come to terms with this reality. It's just a big, giant shit show, man. Might as well wallow in it. :smt005


I'm with ya, bruddah. Like I said-- I think we're heading for a big old hot war.

Hey, maybe the bible was predictive after all. If I were part of an alien race looking to take over the planet, I'd opt for this model and just let the humans slay themselves. Then move on in:

Revelation 6

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
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Re: Trump

Postby Simplyme » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:02 pm

I just got chills down my spine!
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Trump

Postby spongebob » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:08 pm

My biggest regret is that I don't live in a state where weed is legal. Oh, Colorado, how I long for thee...
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
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Re: Trump

Postby Simplyme » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 pm

spongebob wrote:My biggest regret is that I don't live in a state where weed is legal. Oh, Colorado, how I long for thee...


I tried that route........does not work well with me. Paranoia City. Never again..........
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Trump

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:20 pm

spongebob wrote:My biggest regret is that I don't live in a state where weed is legal. Oh, Colorado, how I long for thee...


California here, my friend. Thinking of getting into the business myself.

SimplyMe wrote:I tried that route........does not work well with me. Paranoia City. Never again..........


Same with me-- I really do not like it at all. So if I do get into it as a business, I won't be inclined to tap into my own product. Win/win.
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
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Re: Trump

Postby spongebob » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:23 pm

I was really happy to hear that Cal had voted it in. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the Trump team squashes it completely.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: Trump

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:30 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:
Demonstration supports the contention. Monarchies are much like dictatorships and they lead to a singular viewpoint being considered the rule of law. A king or queen, being a human being with human foibles, is going to be inclined to do things in their best interests. People tend to be wired that way and when you have a sole voice as final law, there's little checks and balance to the model. Now, you may indeed luck out with a benevolent monarch, but only someone deluded would assume that would be the case with a string of monarchs, all descended down from one an other-- statistically speaking, at least some of those monarch would be power abusers.

Democracies on the other hand are incumbent upon a broad range of viewpoints that can morph with successive generations. further more, it doesn't boil down to a single vision of a single person; instead, the vision or goal must be shared across a larger number of people. Again, you may "bad luck" into someone like a Hitler who can convince people of a silly thing, but even then, we have options to forestall that-- checks and balances -- education and critical thinking skills for instance -- that help mold that. So yes, over time, democracies are in the upward trend because they are better-- better being defined as "the most good for the greatest number of people causing the least amount of harm" (and while that's an opinion,. I doubt there's a better explanation of what "good" actually is in a practical world), democracies outshine monarchies.

A couple of points. Firstly although you say you are demonstrating what you are doing is to present an argument. An argument is a type of demonstration I agree but this discounts any claim by you that opposing arguments are not demonstrations. You tend as I often point out to change the meaning of the word demonstration depending on whether you want to say you can do it or those who disagree with you can't. Second point. The argument you present is really a defence of oligarchy not of democracy. John Calvin mentions these three types of government then uses pretty much the same argument you use here for oligarchy and against monarchy, in spite of dedicating his book to the French king!
All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.
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Re: Trump

Postby Keep The Reason » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:25 pm

Moonwood the Hare wrote:A couple of points. Firstly although you say you are demonstrating what you are doing is to present an argument. An argument is a type of demonstration I agree but this discounts any claim by you that opposing arguments are not demonstrations. You tend as I often point out to change the meaning of the word demonstration depending on whether you want to say you can do it or those who disagree with you can't.


Demonstration is meant per the evidence for the argument, not that the argument itself is a demonstration.

Second point. The argument you present is really a defence of oligarchy not of democracy. John Calvin mentions these three types of government then uses pretty much the same argument you use here for oligarchy and against monarchy, in spite of dedicating his book to the French king!


Okaaaay, but it's also a defense of the kind of representative democracy we have today in the states. Oligarchy is "small group". Representative democracies are a larger group. I don't see the issue.
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
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