Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Jesus Raves » Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:05 pm

Particles wrote:
Jesus Raves wrote:I am fascinated how certain sections of the Bible have been, apparently, deemed forgeries by scholars, yet Christians ignore that inconvenient alleged fact. Perhaps there's more to it than Carrier implied


Do you mean on whether there is a consensus on it? Ehrman wrote a book on the whole thing, Forged. Or just look up Wikipedia on Pauline authorship, for example.

Yes, whether there's a consensus on it. Pauline authorship Wikipedia article is a good read.

Particles wrote:
Jesus Raves wrote:I need to check out Carrier's book and the scholarly criticism of it--must be somewhere.

He keeps a list. List of Responses to Defenders of the Historicity of Jesus

This and his frequent references in the talk to a desire for more criticism of his work earns him my respect, for sure.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Simplyme » Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:57 pm

Simply, the Jesus who is claimed to have been divine could have existed without his supernatural deeds being real. From what I understand, that's the Jesus we're discussing.


Could have. Now that changes things. So what made you go from "could have" to, "I lean towards historicity"? What caused that lean to a divine Jesus? Outside the bible is there any records on him being divine?
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Jesus Raves » Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:50 pm

What are you talking about?
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Simplyme » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:33 pm

It would seem to be nothing.................Oh Well!
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Jesus Raves » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:15 pm

Seriously, though, where did you get that I think historical Jesus was divine? I said nothing of the sort, and you should know better, since you know I'm an atheist.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Rian » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:35 pm

Rian wrote:That's beyond the scope of this thread, so I'll just say that although I agree with certain aspects of those 3 beliefs, there are significant, basic aspects that I have issue with so therefore I don't subscribe to those beliefs.
Simplyme wrote:
Your saying you have no issues whatsoever with your own belief? That's hard to imagine.

You are jumping to conclusions. I didn't say that.

I said that there are "significant, basic aspects" of these belief systems that I have issues with, and that's why I don't think they are true. That doesn't mean that I have "no issues whatsoever" with my own beliefs. I'm not 100% sure that my beliefs are right (and I hope you feel the same way about your beliefs, btw). I have some issues, but they are outweighed by the points on the positive side.

Rian wrote:One major difference is that there are not accepted written scriptures that the vast majority of people that believe in the Tooth Fairy adhere to. Because most followers of Jesus believe in the Bible as some level of authority, it gives us specific points and doctrine and concepts to talk about and to support or not support with sections in the Bible.
Simplyme wrote:
But there are scriptures that can apply to The Muslims god, the Scientologist god, The Mormons god....etc.. etc... etc...

That's beyond the scope of this thread. What this thread is talking about is comparing belief in Jesus to belief in the Tooth Fairy. And I was pointing out that when discussing belief in Jesus, one can refer to the Bible, while when discussing belief in the Tooth Fairy, there aren't any widely-accepted scriptures about the Tooth Fairy, let alone any rational adult believers.

Simplyme wrote:
Rian wrote:Another major difference is, as I pointed out before, that I'm not aware of even one single rational adult that believes in the Tooth Fairy.


I'm also not aware of even one sing "rational" adult that believes in a god. "Rational" as far as gods.

You mean you are aware of people that you would call rational that believe in god/gods, but you think their belief in god/gods is irrational? That's a different matter. I'm talking about judging if a person as a whole is rational, not saying "this person is rational, but this belief isn't." There are many, many rational people that belief in Jesus, and I'm not aware of a single rational person that believes in the tooth fairy. That's another significant difference between the two beliefs.

Simplyme wrote:Personal evidence maybe. Scientific evidence...not even close. Your definition of evidence apparently is not the same as mines.

I'm talking scholarly evidence in the appropriate field - archaeology and history and ancient texts and things like that. Things that apply to any statement in the past. Things that I'm sure you accept for many statements about ancient people and events.

Rian wrote:Perhaps not in your opinion. But we each need to make our own decisions.
Simplyme wrote:
As we have.
And it's still interesting to talk about; that's why we're here :)
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Simplyme » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:49 pm

Rian, I am here just want to go over what you wrote before replying.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Rian » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:50 pm

searchengineguy wrote:
Rian wrote:I've heard people compare Jesus to the tooth fairy many times, both here and at other places. I've always thought this was a pretty poor analogy, although I think I can see what they're trying to say (no one living has been able to prove that they've seen either Jesus or the tooth fairy, so they must be equivalent in some significant way - is this right?)

The main reason that I think the analogy is a poor one is that Jesus is considered by the vast majority of mainstream historians to be a historical figure, while I've never heard of an educated adult think that the tooth fairy is a historical figure.

Can anyone that thinks this is a good analogy explain why they think it's good?


Where do you get the idea that "Jesus is considered by the vast majority of mainstream historians to be a historical figure"? The Biblical Jesus has no credible historical evidence other than from Christian theologians who obviously have an agenda and have the bible as their ultimate source. Unless you are talking about numerous itinerant prophets named Jesus of that period? I used to believe in the tooth fairy and Jesus of the bible when I was a child, but I grew out of both, so yes, I think both have a lot in common.


I think Jesus Raves addresses this point very well.
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Rian » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Jesus Raves wrote:From what I understand, a consensus of historians agree that the Jesus who influenced the founders of Christianity--most prominently Paul--did exist.


SimplyMe wrote:Again, if it was simply a guy named Jesus, taking away all the miracles and the resurrection, that's fine with me(could not care less). It's the Jesus portrayed in the bible that xtian preach about, that I question(especially when being forced to play by there rules).


I'm talking about what JR says - basically, a guy named Jesus that was written about in the Bible and started Christianity (although that's not the greatest way to put it, but that's another story) was an actual person that existed in history. I'm not saying that historians proved that the miracles happened. I'm saying that a consensus of historians have concluded that this particular person existed. And that there is NOT a consensus among historians that there was an actual person in history that was the Tooth Fairy.

I think a closer thing would be Santa Claus, because some people tie him to St. Nicholas, an actual person in history, according to historical consensus.
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Rian » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:13 pm

Jesus Raves wrote:Simply, the Jesus who is claimed to have been divine could have existed without his supernatural deeds being real. From what I understand, that's the Jesus we're discussing.
Yes.
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Particles » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:40 pm

But, Rian, you're equivocating. When you say you believe in Jesus, you're not talking about the mere existence of somebody named Jesus, you mean all the god and miracle stuff. You wouldn't care about believing in him otherwise. History doesn't help you there.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Rian » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:23 pm

Particles, I'm not equivocating. For this point, I am talking about the mere existence of Jesus (the one that Christianity is based on, as I made very clear above and I hope you saw, as opposed to some random guy named Jesus that had nothing to do with Christianity).

This thread is about comparing belief in Jesus to belief in the Tooth Fairy, and the one of my points is that there is a historical consensus that Jesus as a historical figure (as opposed to a divine figure, which they do not address) existed, while there is no historical consensus that the Tooth Fairy existed.

I guess I thought the term "historical Jesus" was clear; that it meant just existing in history, but without a position on his divinity/non-divinity.
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Particles » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:45 pm

Rian wrote:Particles, I'm not equivocating. In this discussion, I am talking about the mere existence of Jesus (the one that Christianity is based on, as I made very clear above and I hope you saw, as opposed to some random guy named Jesus that had nothing to do with Christianity).

This thread is about comparing belief in Jesus to belief in the Tooth Fairy, and the one of my points is that there is a historical consensus that Jesus as a historical figure (as opposed to a divine figure, which they do not address) existed, while there is no historical consensus that the Tooth Fairy existed.


But you are equivocating if you are appealing to history, because history tells you nothing about the divine Jesus you are comparing the tooth fairy to. Nobody is saying non-divine Jesus is like the tooth fairy.

If you're interested in a real test, compare what happens when you put a tooth under your pillow to when you pray to Jesus to come put a dollar bill under your pillow. Then see whether either one shows up.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Rian » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:55 pm

Let me try to explain it this way, then.

Say we are talking about evaluating two statements:

1. an actual being named ABC (with agreed-upon characteristics so that we agree who we are talking about) turned water into wine.
2. an actual being named XYZ (with agreed-upon characteristics so that we agree who we are talking about) turned water into wine.

We then do some research and discover that the consensus of historians is that an actual person named ABC existed, while the historical consensus is that XYZ did NOT exist.

Which of the two statements do you now think is more likely to be true?
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Particles » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:33 pm

The tooth fairy is a fairy, a magical being, not someone walking around on the planet in history, just like the Jesus Christians pray to.
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