Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Rian » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:50 pm

Then you agree with me that it's not good comparison? (I'm talking about people saying things like "Believing in Jesus is just like believing in the Tooth Fairy")
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Simplyme » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:37 pm

Rian wrote:Let me try to explain it this way, then.

Say we are talking about evaluating two statements:

1. an actual being named ABC (with agreed-upon characteristics so that we agree who we are talking about) turned water into wine.
2. an actual being named XYZ (with agreed-upon characteristics so that we agree who we are talking about) turned water into wine.

We then do some research and discover that the consensus of historians is that an actual person named ABC existed, while the historical consensus is that XYZ did NOT exist.

Which of the two statements do you now think is more likely to be true?


Neither......a person can not turn water in to wine. And if historian are claiming that either ABC or XYZ can turn water in to wine, they are lying.

In your example we have to agree that historian can prove that ABC(Jesus) turned water in to wine. And as far as I know historians do not believe that ABC(Jesus) turned water in to wine. So your example falls short.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Og3 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:26 am

spongebob wrote:
mitchellmckain wrote:That said, an important difference is that nobody has a life changing experience with the tooth fairy while millions do have life changing experiences of God and Jesus.


That is a valid point. But I guess my counter reasoning would be that the mythology of the tooth fairy doesn't include life-altering experiences while that of god does, so the characteristics of each being is sort of "baked in". I don't think this invalidates one or the other; I think it's only part of the definition of what the tooth fairy is or what a god is. Santa Clause is another such mythical creature and I would say that the impact of Santa has on some children is certainly significant.

I know a guy who truly believes he has experienced ghosts of human beings and this affects who he is as a person. I don't believe his experiences are what he believes them to be but it's impossible to argue the point precisely for the reasons I discussed with the tooth fairy/god comparison.

I think that, even more importantly, no one takes the tooth fairy seriously, or at least no one above the age of nine. If a child persisted in believing in the tooth fairy for too long, an adult would break the news to them. Even children don't really believe it; one never hears of children knocking out all their teeth in hopes of a huge payday. It is, in essence, a game played by children and parents, designed to make a potentially traumatic experience into a fun experience.

God is not a game. Well, perhaps to some; but really, he's not in a class with rituals like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. As Mitch pointed out, God changes lives, and the tooth fairy doesn't. I have not interviewed AA members to see if this is true, but I'll bet that no one who is really serious about their "program" ever names the tooth fairy as their higher power. I'd venture to speculate that most AA sponsors would discourage that. Why? Because if your higher power is the TF, you're not taking the program seriously. Steps two and three are very important. So God qualifies, and the TF, or the FSM, or other whimsical concepts... well, they don't make the cut.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Og3 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:30 am

Simplyme wrote:
Rian wrote:Let me try to explain it this way, then.

Say we are talking about evaluating two statements:

1. an actual being named ABC (with agreed-upon characteristics so that we agree who we are talking about) turned water into wine.
2. an actual being named XYZ (with agreed-upon characteristics so that we agree who we are talking about) turned water into wine.

We then do some research and discover that the consensus of historians is that an actual person named ABC existed, while the historical consensus is that XYZ did NOT exist.

Which of the two statements do you now think is more likely to be true?


Neither......a person can not turn water in to wine. And if historian are claiming that either ABC or XYZ can turn water in to wine, they are lying.

In your example we have to agree that historian can prove that ABC(Jesus) turned water in to wine. And as far as I know historians do not believe that ABC(Jesus) turned water in to wine. So your example falls short.

If I may: This is a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Premise: A person cannot turn water into wine.
Premise: ABC turned water into wine, which implies that the first premise is false.
Conclusion: ABC is not a person, because no person can turn water into wine.

Thus it is affirmed that no person can turn water into wine. And as you can see, it is the form of circular argument known as a No True Scotsman.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Simplyme » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:54 am

Wow...you got me again.You are so smart. . How you get so smart
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Rian » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:45 am

Simplyme wrote:
Rian wrote:Let me try to explain it this way, then.

Say we are talking about evaluating two statements:

1. an actual being named ABC (with agreed-upon characteristics so that we agree who we are talking about) turned water into wine.
2. an actual being named XYZ (with agreed-upon characteristics so that we agree who we are talking about) turned water into wine.

We then do some research and discover that the consensus of historians is that an actual person named ABC existed, while the historical consensus is that XYZ did NOT exist.

Which of the two statements do you now think is more likely to be true?


Neither......a person can not turn water in to wine. And if historian are claiming that either ABC or XYZ can turn water in to wine, they are lying.

In your example we have to agree that historian can prove that ABC(Jesus) turned water in to wine.
No, we do not. I said we were evaluating the two statements, not that we had come to a conclusion about the water/wine part. And if we sit down to evaluate the two statements, and find that the historical consensus is that person XYZ did not exist, then we wouldn't have to bother going further and looking into if it is possible to turn water into wine.
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby searchengineguy » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:56 am

mjplatt wrote:Well, no god ever left money under my pillow, so I think the tooth fairy wins hands down.


What's all this about leaving teeth and money under pillows? Your tooth fairy is really weird! Our tooth fairy (the real one, not your mythical one) takes the teeth left in a glass and replaces it with coins. Your weirdo fairy is heresy!
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Razor » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:55 am

Rian wrote:Let me try to explain it this way, then.

Say we are talking about evaluating two statements:

1. an actual being named ABC (with agreed-upon characteristics so that we agree who we are talking about) turned water into wine.
2. an actual being named XYZ (with agreed-upon characteristics so that we agree who we are talking about) turned water into wine.

We then do some research and discover that the consensus of historians is that an actual person named ABC existed, while the historical consensus is that XYZ did NOT exist.

Which of the two statements do you now think is more likely to be true?


Let me add a third option

SimplyMe, a person we all know exists, turned water into wine.

This must be the most likely statement of the three then, Rian, as we cansay with more certainty the SimplyMe exists then JC.

(FYI, I am in the "it makes no difference as the water into wine part has p<.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001")

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting the third installment called " the newest testament" which will, in keeping with the times, be a collection of the best posts from SimplyMe in some kind of blog format.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Simplyme » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:27 pm

HOLY SHIT. I have been confirmed to exist. This makes me happy, I always thought I was a brain in a jar. And not only that I can turn water in to wine. I have to take this show on the road.

I'm a little overwhelmed to be considered more likely to exist then Jesus. Just please do not say that I am more likely to exist then Santa...That would be sacrilegious, and I will not stand for it(sit maybe, but surely not stand).

Best post from me? That will not even be enough for a limerick.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Particles » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:06 pm

Rian wrote:Then you agree with me that it's not good comparison? (I'm talking about people saying things like "Believing in Jesus is just like believing in the Tooth Fairy")


Historical evidence for Jesus only makes the "water into wine" story marginally more likely than the other case, the story is still very unlikely in either case.

But, I do agree the tooth fairy is not a good comparison overall, only good in certain aspects, since the the story is more admittedly an invention. There are better overall comparisons to Jesus, such as other religious figures, like the alleged Hindu avatars, who are said to be incarnations of God and also miracle workers. Many of them are recent and very historical. That Sathya Sai Baba is undeniably historical is not a good reason to believe he performed miracles and was an incarnation of God, as his followers claim.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Simplyme » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:25 pm

How is Jesus Historicity make turning "water in to wine" more plausible? Jesus historicity does not confirm Jesus performing miracles. A person existed named Jesus has nothing to do with him performing miracles. Proving George Washington existed says nothing about him cutting down the cherry tree.

And Jesus miracles is as much am invention as the tooth fairy putting money under your pillow.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby somecallmeTim? » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:34 pm

Razor wrote:(FYI, I am in the "it makes no difference as the water into wine part has p<.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001")


Wow! With such a small level of probability, it really must have been a miracle.
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Razor » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:38 am

somecallmeTim? wrote:
Razor wrote:(FYI, I am in the "it makes no difference as the water into wine part has p<.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001")


Wow! With such a small level of probability, it really must have been a miracle.


No, just never actually happened....

If it HAD happened it would have a probability a wee bit higher, no?
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Og3 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:39 am

Simplyme wrote:Wow...you got me again.You are so smart. . How you get so smart

Native aptitude and the careful cultivation of the mind as a probative tool. Why do you ask?
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Re: Jesus vs. the Tooth Fairy

Postby Simplyme » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:27 am

Og3 wrote:
Simplyme wrote:Wow...you got me again.You are so smart. . How you get so smart

Native aptitude and the careful cultivation of the mind as a probative tool. Why do you ask?


I will try, that to see if it will get me to become a believer again.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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