Suggestion Box

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Suggestion Box

Postby Rian » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:58 pm

This is the corner of the Civility Lounge where we gather to discuss ... the Civility Lounge!

Your (civilly-presented) ideas and suggestions are welcome :cheers:
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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby CL Moderator » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:59 pm

The CL moderators would like to get the input of the community on a new rule we feel would be advantageous to have in place - a kind of "intellectual charity/anti-fundyism" rule.

Here is the warning that we put up on the Jesus' Really Bad Weekend thread about it:

* * * * General Warning and Announcement from the CL Moderators * * * *

This thread has been dancing around at the edges of the rules for some time in terms of insults and language, and is becoming increasingly angry in tone. We are also seeing a new element which has caused the moderators to work on an addition to our CL rules - we are seeing a kind of "fundy-ism" that is basically pronouncements of the type "I am right/you are wrong", especially in matters that are open to different interpretations or opinion, and this is really a discussion-killer. Examples are things like, "My interpretation of this Bible verse is the right one and your church is all wrong!" and "Obviously God doesn't exist and it's ridiculous to think he does!" Here in the CL, regardless of how you feel outside of the CL, your posts need to reflect an attitude of "there is at least a remote chance that I could be wrong and others could be right", because that attitude promotes discussion and exchange of thoughts and ideas, which is the whole purpose of the Civility Lounge.

We would like the input of the community on this, so we are opening up a discussion in the "Suggestion Box" thread, and would appreciate people's thoughts and suggestions for us to formulate into a new CL guideline.

In the meantime, however, the insults need to stop, or further action will be taken. We are more lenient about language, but if it goes much further, action will be taken. If the hostile tone and dogmatic language continues, we will shut down the thread for a brief "cool-down" period.

-- The CL moderator team


and here is a draft of the proposed rule:

Intellectual charity/anti-"fundyism" rule. You might think your own opinions couldn't possibly be wrong, but stating those opinions in a harsh, dogmatic way kills conversation. "My/my church's interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one!" or "people who believe in gods are delusional, period!" are examples of the kind of thing we will moderate. Remember we're here to talk with people, not at them.


What are people's thoughts on this? Any suggestions for rewording, additions, whatever?

Thank you,

Your CL Moderator team
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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby humanguy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:08 pm

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing that rule applied across the board, even though I know it's not in keeping with the apparently free-for-all raison d'être of this forum.
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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby Rian » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:10 pm

I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way, but Emery would like to keep it totally rule-free on the rest of the board, and (being the tolerant person that I am :D ) I'm fine with that, now that we have a place where there are some discussion guidelines in place to keep out the discussion-killing types.

Anyway, do you have any suggestions for rewording the rule? Tirtlegrrl and I have been tossing around ideas for a few days, and this is our current draft.
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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby humanguy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:12 pm

Rian wrote:I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way, but Emery would like to keep it totally rule-free on the rest of the board, and (being the tolerant person that I am :D ) I'm fine with that, now that we have a place where there are some discussion guidelines in place to keep out the discussion-killing types.

Anyway, do you have any suggestions for rewording the rule? Tirtlegrrl and I have been tossing around ideas for a few days, and this is our current draft.


It seems to be fairly worded to me, Rian.
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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby Rian » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:18 pm

Tirtlegrrl came up with most of the wording - she's a good writer!

I just thought of a funny addition - something like "You may think you know everything, but whilst in the CL, you need to suppress that pleasant illusion :D and word your posts like there's at least a remote possibility that someone else might be right ... " :D
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby Jesus Raves » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:38 pm

Could also be called the "If you want to tell people how to think, write a book" rule. :P Too wordy?
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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby Rian » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:22 am

no, nice and concise ...

(and I bet it won't be a top-seller on Amazon! :D )
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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby Rian » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:05 am

I've locked the Bad Weekend thread while we discuss this within our community. Tirtlegrrl and I will pick a few quotes at random from each "side", and then we can discuss ways to reword the thoughts expressed that are more conducive to discussion. Feel free to provide examples of your own, as long as it's for the purpose of working together to better an already good community and not about bashing a poster.

We will ONLY discuss the wording, NOT the poster. This is NOT a pile-on party about particular posters. This is our community putting our heads together to come up with some discussion standards that most (if not all) of us value.

Again, here is the draft rule:

Intellectual charity/anti-"fundyism" rule. You might think your own opinions couldn't possibly be wrong, but stating those opinions in a harsh, dogmatic way kills conversation. "My/my church's interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one!" or "people who believe in gods are delusional, period!" are examples of the kind of thing we will moderate. Remember we're here to talk with people, not at them.


And ... (closes eyes, stabs at a post) here is an example to talk over:

One16Unashamed wrote:I think Pentecostle teachings of certain doctrines are wrong and if you look at the Biblical teachings, Historical context you can come to that conclusion.

On a side note, if I can't say that Jesus Christ is The only way of salvation and that He is who He claimed to be and that anyone that claims different is wrong. Then my belief is wrong, my savior was a liar and the Bible is false.

The first paragraph is pretty much fine because of the "I think" at the beginning. If it moves into "Pentecostal teachings of doctrines are wrong!", then that's discussion-killer territory, and will be not in line with the new rule.

As far as the second paragraph - the way it's written it's pretty much OK, but if instead it was stated something like "Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation and if you don't believe in Him, you're going to hell!", then it would not be OK under the new rule, because of how statements like this are such a discussion-killer. If you want to say something like that in the CL, then it needs to be prefaced with something like "I believe" or "I think" or something along those lines, which make the simple and obvious acknowledgement that you don't stand above your peers because you know the ultimate truth about the universe.

(Again, we are providing examples at random and are NOT picking on particular posters)
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby spongebob » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:24 am

I think you are going in the right direction here but it's like threading the needle. You don't want to suppress people expressing what they believe but you want them to express that in a way that is like a conversation and not a commandment. I think the statement of the rule is a little difficult to get your head around but when you explain it it makes sense and it is consistent with the "tone" of the CL so it's not like you are taking it in a different direction. Actually, I think if someone made a comment like that it could be considered baiting or argumentative, so I wouldn't disagree with a moderator calling someone out for that. I think locking the thread and posting that this behavior needs to stop is a good reaction. It can then be unlocked a few days later and allow the conversation to resume.

As a side note, I still find it hilarious that certain people can't bare to post in the CL because they find it too stifling. :lol: In theory it should be a much more comfortable place for a conversation and I wish more would take place. No room for Clare's nonsense here, for example. Just sayin'.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby Simplyme » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:56 am

In my opinion....it getting rather complicated posting on the Civility page. Its a forum board, not the election. People come here to talk, vent, kill time. Why so complicated?
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby spongebob » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:02 am

Simplyme wrote:In my opinion....it getting rather complicated posting on the Civility page. Its a forum board, not the election. People come here to talk, vent, kill time. Why so complicated?


What do you mean by "complicated"? The point of the CL was to provide a moderated forum where people couldn't call each other ugly names and tell them their ideas are stupid, as they often do on the other forum. Some people would just prefer a place where a more civil conversation could be had. If you mean "complicated" in that the rules seem confusing, then that's just the nature of a regulated space. In an open space, there are no rules and what happens happens, sort of like nature. In a regulated space, like society, people are restricted to some level of behavior that they collectively find acceptable. It's not really complicated; it just means you need to be a good boy and have a civil conversation. I've told people that most of the conversations in the open forum would never take place in a face to face setting because someone would get their face smashed in. So pretend you are sitting face to face with someone you know and see often and that's how you should behave.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby Simplyme » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:12 am

spongebob wrote:
Simplyme wrote:In my opinion....it getting rather complicated posting on the Civility page. Its a forum board, not the election. People come here to talk, vent, kill time. Why so complicated?


What do you mean by "complicated"? The point of the CL was to provide a moderated forum where people couldn't call each other ugly names and tell them their ideas are stupid, as they often do on the other forum. Some people would just prefer a place where a more civil conversation could be had. If you mean "complicated" in that the rules seem confusing, then that's just the nature of a regulated space. In an open space, there are no rules and what happens happens, sort of like nature. In a regulated space, like society, people are restricted to some level of behavior that they collectively find acceptable. It's not really complicated; it just means you need to be a good boy and have a civil conversation. I've told people that most of the conversations in the open forum would never take place in a face to face setting because someone would get their face smashed in. So pretend you are sitting face to face with someone you know and see often and that's how you should behave.


Then would it not just be simple and just state that to post on here you have to be "civil"(as the name states)?

Is stating someone's idea as ignorant, considered un-civil?

I sit face to face all the time with my family members and friends(many xtians), I call them ignorant many times when we discuss religion. I rather they know how I feel then worry about offending them. I'm sure they feel the same. I find it funny that its mostly xtians (any atheist ever been offended here?) who get offended on here. So I guess, this Civility page is just not for me. But i'm good with that.

I apologize for my stupidity.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby tirtlegrrl » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:47 am

Hi Simplyme,

Yes, it would be nice if just saying "be civil" was all that was necessary. But funnily enough people seem to have rather diverse opinions on what counts as civil, hence our desire to provide some examples and guidelines. As to whether it's usually the theists getting offended, I can only speak for myself, but one of the reasons I agreed to sign on to the CL project was because I get tired of the callousness and sometimes plain viciousness of the other forum. It's nice to have a space where self-control and plain ol' charity drive the culture instead of venting. Just my $0.02/₤0.0125 (depending on the exchange rate). :-D
"I think it was, 'Blessed are the cheesemakers.'" -Monty Python's Life of Brian
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Re: Suggestion Box

Postby Simplyme » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:50 am

tirtlegrrl wrote:Hi Simplyme,

Yes, it would be nice if just saying "be civil" was all that was necessary. But funnily enough people seem to have rather diverse opinions on what counts as civil, hence our desire to provide some examples and guidelines. As to whether it's usually the theists getting offended, I can only speak for myself, but one of the reasons I agreed to sign on to the CL project was because I get tired of the callousness and sometimes plain viciousness of the other forum. It's nice to have a space where self-control and plain ol' charity drive the culture instead of venting. Just my $0.02/₤0.0125 (depending on the exchange rate). :-D


Now I'm wishing for a "like" button.

I am one that have a weird definition of "civil". Guilty as charged!
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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