Leaving the Faith

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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Chapabel » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:16 pm

Simplyme wrote:
Chapabel wrote:
Simplyme wrote:
Confessing your sins is asking for forgiveness, therefore apologizing.

You may want to look up the definitions for forgiveness and apologizing. They are not the same.



Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense, lets go of negative emotions such as vengefulness, with an increased ability to wish the offender well.

Apology is a regretful acknowledgment of an offense or failure.

Now tell me where it is you're lost.......

It's not me who is lost. Look at the definitions you, yourself, pasted and note the persons involved. Forgiveness comes from the victim. An apology is an acknowledgement made by the offender.

Allow me to demonstrate. Say I punch you in the nose. By apologizing, I tell you I regret hitting you. You are not required to forgive me because I did not ask you to. Therefore enmity may exist between us. Now, let's take the Biblical approach. I punch you in the nose then I confess that I wronged you and ask you to forgive me for the action. You offer forgiveness and we are reconciled.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Chapabel » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:18 pm

Simplyme wrote:
Chapabel wrote:
Simplyme wrote:Would you be as interested if I quoted Santa, Zeus, Harry Potter?

If you were quoting Santa to me in an effort to substantiate your position, I would question your approach. Since I do believe in Jesus, I find it just as puzzling that you would quote someone you consider equal to Ol St. Nick. It does not help your argument, IMO.


So your confused on why I would use a reference in your book to discuss a subject about said book? So when you made a reference about what was in your book......what was I suppose to use, the Bhagavad Gita?


It just seems hypocritical to me for you to use a book you do not believe in just to prove your point. If you were discussing the ability of Harry Potter to cast the proper spell, I would simply ignore your post because I don't believe Harry Potter exists.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Simplyme » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:24 pm

It just seems hypocritical to me for you to use a book you do not believe in just to prove your point. If you were discussing the ability of Harry Potter to cast the proper spell, I would simply ignore your post because I don't believe Harry Potter exists.


Now why would that be. If you were to tell me that Spiderman name is not Peter Parker. What would be wrong in me showing you a comic where it shows he is?

If I were to ignore all post on here about god, then what am I here for? Do you even read what you type?
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Chapabel » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:28 pm

Simplyme wrote:
It just seems hypocritical to me for you to use a book you do not believe in just to prove your point. If you were discussing the ability of Harry Potter to cast the proper spell, I would simply ignore your post because I don't believe Harry Potter exists.


Now why would that be. If you were to tell me that Spiderman name is not Peter Parker. What would be wrong in me showing you a comic where it shows he is?

If I were to ignore all post on here about god, then what am I here for? Do you even read what you type?

Do you live your life according to Spiderman or Peter Parker? You are entitled to do so if that is your choice. Since I believe that is ridicules, I would not even respond to your posts. You believe I am just as wrong for believe in Jesus, correct? So why waste your time quoting Bible to me if you reject it?
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Simplyme » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:32 pm

Do you live your life according to Spiderman or Peter Parker? You are entitled to do so if that is your choice. Since I believe that is ridicules, I would not even respond to your posts. You believe I am just as wrong for believe in Jesus, correct? So why waste your time quoting Bible to me if you reject it?


I do not live according to Spiderman, Peter Parker, or Jesus. Where did I say anything about you being wrong for believing in Jesus in my post? Are you even reading my post? You commented on the bible not telling one to apologize, I showed you were I thought you where wrong. That is all.......but like a typical xtian...the goal post moves.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Chapabel » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:01 pm

Simplyme wrote:
Do you live your life according to Spiderman or Peter Parker? You are entitled to do so if that is your choice. Since I believe that is ridicules, I would not even respond to your posts. You believe I am just as wrong for believe in Jesus, correct? So why waste your time quoting Bible to me if you reject it?


I do not live according to Spiderman, Peter Parker, or Jesus. Where did I say anything about you being wrong for believing in Jesus in my post? Are you even reading my post? You commented on the bible not telling one to apologize, I showed you were I thought you where wrong. That is all.......but like a typical xtian...the goal post moves.

No, you quoted Bible at me with no explanation nor question. I was simply pointing out what I believe is hypocrisy in someone using a book they don't even believe in just to show someone else they are wrong. You were trying to prove me wrong, correct? That is what you posted. No goal posts were moved. They are right where they were to begin with.

Now let me ask you this, are you saying that I am right for believing in Jesus Christ?
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby spongebob » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:02 pm

Chapabel wrote:As much as I would hate to admit it, I would have to agree with you. I believe there are numerous Christians who simply accept what is taught without actually believing it 100%. It is by closely examining the evidence that has convinced me beyond any doubt that the Bible is true and my faith is valid. Again, I believe if more people would examine the evidence with an open heart, they would come to the same conclusion as Rip.


And I believe just the opposite and that is after years of examining what we know of the universe and human behavior and other religions. I find it amazing at this point that people really believe the kinds of things I was taught as a child because they all sound so absurd to me now.

And I have to throw in my usual objection to people equivocating things like "open-heart" to meaning anything useful. Phrases like this are as near to meaningless as they can be. You are a human being. You have a brain and it contains every aspect of your ability to think, weigh information and make decisions. There is zero evidence that any other organ in your body can do any of those functions. When "heart" is referenced, the most meaningful translation is emotions, but of course, all of your emotions happen in your brain as well. And my experience with Christians on this forum says that Christians by and large reject the idea that emotions drive their belief in god. I reject that notion of course and contend that emotions drive the majority of Christian belief despite their protestations. All I base this on is 25 years as a Christian, including my entire childhood, where it was abundantly clear and obvious that people's emotions were being manipulated and played upon all the time. Books and films and further experience as an adult with church and religious leaders has done little to alter this conclusion. I do know some religious leaders who advocate a much more intellectual approach to religion, but I hardly see them getting the kind of praise and popular support as the ones who rely almost entirely on emotions. So when you say things like people should be more "open-hearted" when they consider Christianity, I can only translate this as meaning they should rely on their emotion, which is the exact opposite of evidence or anything objective. In fact there's nothing more subjective than your own emotions. This may not be what you mean, but it's simply the only translation that makes any sort of sense to me.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Chapabel » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:10 pm

spongebob wrote:
Chapabel wrote:As much as I would hate to admit it, I would have to agree with you. I believe there are numerous Christians who simply accept what is taught without actually believing it 100%. It is by closely examining the evidence that has convinced me beyond any doubt that the Bible is true and my faith is valid. Again, I believe if more people would examine the evidence with an open heart, they would come to the same conclusion as Rip.


And I believe just the opposite and that is after years of examining what we know of the universe and human behavior and other religions. I find it amazing at this point that people really believe the kinds of things I was taught as a child because they all sound so absurd to me now.

And I have to throw in my usual objection to people equivocating things like "open-heart" to meaning anything useful. Phrases like this are as near to meaningless as they can be. You are a human being. You have a brain and it contains every aspect of your ability to think, weigh information and make decisions. There is zero evidence that any other organ in your body can do any of those functions. When "heart" is referenced, the most meaningful translation is emotions, but of course, all of your emotions happen in your brain as well. And my experience with Christians on this forum says that Christians by and large reject the idea that emotions drive their belief in god. I reject that notion of course and contend that emotions drive the majority of Christian belief despite their protestations. All I base this on is 25 years as a Christian, including my entire childhood, where it was abundantly clear and obvious that people's emotions were being manipulated and played upon all the time. Books and films and further experience as an adult with church and religious leaders has done little to alter this conclusion. I do know some religious leaders who advocate a much more intellectual approach to religion, but I hardly see them getting the kind of praise and popular support as the ones who rely almost entirely on emotions. So when you say things like people should be more "open-hearted" when they consider Christianity, I can only translate this as meaning they should rely on their emotion, which is the exact opposite of evidence or anything objective. In fact there's nothing more subjective than your own emotions. This may not be what you mean, but it's simply the only translation that makes any sort of sense to me.

Have you ever lost someone you loved deeply Sponge? Where was the pain? Was it your brain that hurt, or your heart? The heart represents more than an organ that pumps blood. It is more than simple emotions. It represents the inner person; who we really are on the inside.
To be right with God has often meant to be in trouble with men. -- A.W. Tozer
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Simplyme » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:14 pm

No, you quoted Bible at me with no explanation nor question. I was simply pointing out what I believe is hypocrisy in someone using a book they don't even believe in just to show someone else they are wrong. You were trying to prove me wrong, correct? That is what you posted. No goal posts were moved. They are right where they were to begin with.

Now let me ask you this, are you saying that I am right for believing in Jesus Christ?


You commented:

Did you realize that nowhere in the Bible are we taught to apologize?


I showed you where I thought you were wrong. Then you question me on why would I show you, on your own book,where you were wrong regarding your book. It's that simple. Then you jump to:

You believe I am just as wrong for believe in Jesus, correct?


Two different things

Now you jump to:

Now let me ask you this, are you saying that I am right for believing in Jesus Christ


You jump any higher I'm gonna think your a rabbit. :-)
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Simplyme » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:23 pm

Have you ever lost someone you loved deeply Sponge? Where was the pain? Was it your brain that hurt, or your heart? The heart represents more than an organ that pumps blood. It is more than simple emotions. It represents the inner person; who we really are on the inside.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... est-pains/

The heart is the key organ in the circulatory system. As a hollow, muscular pump, its main function is to propel blood throughout the body. It usually beats from 60 to 100 times per minute, but can go much faster when necessary.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Chapabel » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:27 pm

Simplyme wrote:
Have you ever lost someone you loved deeply Sponge? Where was the pain? Was it your brain that hurt, or your heart? The heart represents more than an organ that pumps blood. It is more than simple emotions. It represents the inner person; who we really are on the inside.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... est-pains/

The heart is the key organ in the circulatory system. As a hollow, muscular pump, its main function is to propel blood throughout the body. It usually beats from 60 to 100 times per minute, but can go much faster when necessary.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ezekiel/11-19.htm
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Razor » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:39 pm

Ah, biblehub. That bastion of peer reviewed science and medical expertise.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby spongebob » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:40 pm

Chapabel wrote:Have you ever lost someone you loved deeply Sponge? Where was the pain? Was it your brain that hurt, or your heart? The heart represents more than an organ that pumps blood. It is more than simple emotions. It represents the inner person; who we really are on the inside.


Absolutely I have. All emotions originate in our head, whether the thrill of great success or the pain of failure. There's really no center of "pain" related to emotions, although you can actually feel bad all over. Stomach problems, back problems, headaches, dramatic weight loss or gain, all of these and many more can be residual side effects from emotional drain. I should know; I have experienced all of these more than once. I've lost people, my house was flooded, I've lost my job, I almost lost my mother to suicide and depression. Emotion is a powerful force for humans and even though it all happens in the roughly 3 pounds of meat in our skull, the entire body can suffer the consequences. It really is as simple as emotions (although emotions themselves can be complex). If there is anything else, we have no evidence and no mechanism to describe it. Any attempt to do so is mere speculation. And despite the many claims of out of body experiences and the like, experimentation has been able to explain most of this as functions of the brain. It's possible you are correct, but there's simply no evidence to support it and plenty to contradict it. And let me be clear; I find this revelation to be wonderful and freeing, not dark and sad. We are a product of the universe and we are made up of atoms of the stars. We exist forever in the scope of the universe. Our body and mind exists for only a blip on a cosmic scale, but we are still part of its entirety. I find that far more fulfilling than the promise of heaven because it does not contradict what I know about the universe; it doesn't rely on magic.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Chapabel » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:51 pm

spongebob wrote:
Chapabel wrote:Have you ever lost someone you loved deeply Sponge? Where was the pain? Was it your brain that hurt, or your heart? The heart represents more than an organ that pumps blood. It is more than simple emotions. It represents the inner person; who we really are on the inside.


Absolutely I have. All emotions originate in our head, whether the thrill of great success or the pain of failure. There's really no center of "pain" related to emotions, although you can actually feel bad all over. Stomach problems, back problems, headaches, dramatic weight loss or gain, all of these and many more can be residual side effects from emotional drain. I should know; I have experienced all of these more than once. I've lost people, my house was flooded, I've lost my job, I almost lost my mother to suicide and depression. Emotion is a powerful force for humans and even though it all happens in the roughly 3 pounds of meat in our skull, the entire body can suffer the consequences. It really is as simple as emotions (although emotions themselves can be complex). If there is anything else, we have no evidence and no mechanism to describe it. Any attempt to do so is mere speculation. And despite the many claims of out of body experiences and the like, experimentation has been able to explain most of this as functions of the brain. It's possible you are correct, but there's simply no evidence to support it and plenty to contradict it. And let me be clear; I find this revelation to be wonderful and freeing, not dark and sad. We are a product of the universe and we are made up of atoms of the stars. We exist forever in the scope of the universe. Our body and mind exists for only a blip on a cosmic scale, but we are still part of its entirety. I find that far more fulfilling than the promise of heaven because it does not contradict what I know about the universe; it doesn't rely on magic.

Well you are perfectly entitled to believe everything you posted. Personally, I do not believe in magic either. My faith is in a real person: Jesus Christ. And I am entitled to believe that as well.
To be right with God has often meant to be in trouble with men. -- A.W. Tozer
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby CL Moderator » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:15 pm

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