Leaving the Faith

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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Particles » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:22 pm

Chapabel wrote:
Particles wrote:
Chapabel wrote:So you are offended because you believe everyone is honest with themselves when it comes to their personal search in terms of God?


Everyone? Who knows if they are or aren't? You're still dodging the question of what you think you are seeking forgiveness for. You don't think anybody should really be offended for saying what you think is true, do you? That's why Spongebob may be right to call it a notapology, where one apologizes not for one what did, but for the other party's feelings. Why apologize or seek forgiveness for another person's feelings?

I was asking forgiveness in case Sponge thought I was calling him, or anyone else, a liar. I am not asking forgiveness for my belief though. Even you agree that everyone may not be honest with themselves in their search. If I offend someone by speaking the truth, I will ask for forgiveness for offending them in the manner in which I spoke, but not for the truth I spoke.


Do you think you did something wrong or not? If not, why would you need forgiveness?
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Simplyme » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:09 pm

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ezekiel/11-19.htm


And there lies your problem.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby spongebob » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:27 pm

CL Moderator wrote:*** Moderator Warning ***

Please be careful to not descend to sarcasm here. Thank you.


I'm not sure which post that was directed at. If it was Chapabel's post, I don't believe he was being sarcastic at all; that sounded like a sincere comment. If it was meant as sarcasm then I probably need to give him a few lessons. :smt004
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby spongebob » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:38 pm

Chapabel wrote:Well you are perfectly entitled to believe everything you posted. Personally, I do not believe in magic either. My faith is in a real person: Jesus Christ. And I am entitled to believe that as well.


Absolutely! And I wouldn't have it another way because if you weren't entitled to your beliefs then I wouldn't be entitled to mine. That's the entire purpose of keeping government and religion completely separate as we discussed in the other thread. And I understand that you don't see Christianity as magic; you believe it's as real as the ground beneath you. But because of my personal observations of the world we live in and the things we know through scientific investigation, the only way I can view the typical Christian teachings is magic. Now, as I stated, I can envision other religious modalities that don't rely on magic and are compatible with what we know about the universe, end even incorporate some portions of the Bible, but those you would dismiss as a cult. But the problem is this; you can't say I arrived at this conclusion because I wasn't honest with myself or being open-minded without over reaching yourself.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby CL Moderator » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:43 pm

spongebob wrote:
CL Moderator wrote:*** Moderator Warning ***

Please be careful to not descend to sarcasm here. Thank you.


I'm not sure which post that was directed at. If it was Chapabel's post, I don't believe he was being sarcastic at all; that sounded like a sincere comment. If it was meant as sarcasm then I probably need to give him a few lessons. :smt004


Thank you for your input! Good point. It was intended to be a general warning, and that should have been specified. The warning will be edited to reflect this.

For members' information - Warnings to a specific individual will usually be done via PM, as mentioned in the rules, but the post was definitely unclear. It is now fixed.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:01 am

Simplyme wrote:
Have you ever lost someone you loved deeply Sponge? Where was the pain? Was it your brain that hurt, or your heart? The heart represents more than an organ that pumps blood. It is more than simple emotions. It represents the inner person; who we really are on the inside.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... est-pains/

The heart is the key organ in the circulatory system. As a hollow, muscular pump, its main function is to propel blood throughout the body. It usually beats from 60 to 100 times per minute, but can go much faster when necessary.

Good article. It would never have occured to me to interpret what Chapabel said about the heart literally, although as a matter of fact there are neurons in the heart and the idea that thoughts and emotions are caused by the brain in isolation may be misleading. We are a unified organism and we experience things in our body. If someone tells me they are angry or sad one of the first questions I will ask is where are you sad? where are you angry? where do you feel that? When a person says all their feelings are in their head that often means they are afraid to let them into their body, that is they are afraid of what those feelings will mke them do.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby spongebob » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:08 am

OK, after re-reading several posts, I saw where the sarcasm crept in. I agree that it isn't a good thing; just derails threads.

Moonwood the Hare wrote:Good article. It would never have occured to me to interpret what Chapabel said about the heart literally, although as a matter of fact there are neurons in the heart and the idea that thoughts and emotions are caused by the brain in isolation may be misleading. We are a unified organism and we experience things in our body. If someone tells me they are angry or sad one of the first questions I will ask is where are you sad? where are you angry? where do you feel that? When a person says all their feelings are in their head that often means they are afraid to let them into their body, that is they are afraid of what those feelings will mke them do.


Moon, I just don't know where you come from, man. Half of what you say makes total sense and the other half just sounds like it came straight out of a scene from Alice and Wonderland. Maybe it has something to do with the way medicine is practiced in the US vs. Britain. If I told a medical doctor here what you just said I'm pretty sure he would laugh his head off. If I told a shrink, he would book me for six months, I'm sure.

At the least I think you are taking what chapabel said way more literally than it was meant. He is basically referring to that old question of what we are, meat or meat plus something else. You know where I stand; no need to rehash.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby mitchellmckain » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:50 am

spongebob wrote:
Moonwood the Hare wrote:Good article. It would never have occured to me to interpret what Chapabel said about the heart literally, although as a matter of fact there are neurons in the heart and the idea that thoughts and emotions are caused by the brain in isolation may be misleading. We are a unified organism and we experience things in our body. If someone tells me they are angry or sad one of the first questions I will ask is where are you sad? where are you angry? where do you feel that? When a person says all their feelings are in their head that often means they are afraid to let them into their body, that is they are afraid of what those feelings will mke them do.


Moon, I just don't know where you come from, man. Half of what you say makes total sense and the other half just sounds like it came straight out of a scene from Alice and Wonderland. Maybe it has something to do with the way medicine is practiced in the US vs. Britain. If I told a medical doctor here what you just said I'm pretty sure he would laugh his head off. If I told a shrink, he would book me for six months, I'm sure.

I think you are getting carried away with hyperbole. I agree that what he has said here is a little outre, but you go way too far. It is not impossible and it is not insane. As for doctors laughing, I haven't anywhere near your worshipful opinion of their intelligence, but I would not be all that surprised to hear some of them behaving like an intolerant ideologue unable to think outside the dogma that was pounded into them.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:21 pm

Moon, I just don't know where you come from, man. Half of what you say makes total sense and the other half just sounds like it came straight out of a scene from Alice and Wonderland. Maybe it has something to do with the way medicine is practiced in the US vs. Britain. If I told a medical doctor here what you just said I'm pretty sure he would laugh his head off. If I told a shrink, he would book me for six months, I'm sure.

At the least I think you are taking what chapabel said way more literally than it was meant. He is basically referring to that old question of what we are, meat or meat plus something else. You know where I stand; no need to rehash.

Chapabel was talking about having an open heart,by which as he made clear, he meant being open in the deepest part of your self. This idea of the heart as the core of the self is very common in Christian thinking and it is never as far as I am aware interpreted literally as being about the physical organ that pumps blood. Rather it is understood phenomenologically as being about the core of the person that underlies both thought and feeling.

Many GPs both in the UK and the US have fallen into a kind of mechanistic thinking where the Cartesian dualism of mind and body thought of as two substances is replaced by a dualism of brain and body where these are considered in isolation and not as part of an organismic whole. So if they are in that habbit of thinking they may indeed laugh.

As for psychotherapists who think in this more holistic way you need to look at the work of Eugene Gendlin http://www.focusing.org/bios/gendlin_bio.html
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby sayak » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:27 pm

The discussion about heart as pumping organ was a bit frivolous. But Sponge is on the right track when he/she says that opening up completely to our emotional/intuitive/spontaneous/subjective nature is also tantamount to shutting oneself off from the more skeptical/analytical/deliberative aspect of our mind that helps to correct for the many deeply held biases of our "intuitive common sense" mode of thinking/feeling. And this would be greatly detrimental when we are trying to ascertain truths from an objective standpoint. This is clearly illustrated by many years of good psychological research http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/dec/13/thinking-fast-slow-daniel-kahneman. One needs both in life of course, but they have different roles, and one should uses intuitions and spontaneity in places where creativity matters (relationships, idea generation, art) and one should be rational and deliberative where that is more important (weighing evidence, executing complex projects, predicting future trends, discerning what is true from what is false etc.). I often think that when some christians say to open one's heart, it is synonymous to the plea for suspension of disbelief one needs to enjoy a good fictional book or play or an animation. There actually are similarities between the activities of believers in a religious ritual to those one encounter among participants of a Live Action Role Play game (real or virtual).
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:42 pm

sayak wrote:The discussion about heart as pumping organ was a bit frivolous. But Sponge is on the right track when he/she says that opening up completely to our emotional/intuitive/spontaneous/subjective nature is also tantamount to shutting oneself off from the more skeptical/analytical/deliberative aspect of our mind that helps to correct for the many deeply held biases of our "intuitive common sense" mode of thinking/feeling. And this would be greatly detrimental when we are trying to ascertain truths from an objective standpoint. This is clearly illustrated by many years of good psychological research http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/dec/13/thinking-fast-slow-daniel-kahneman. One needs both in life of course, but they have different roles, and one should uses intuitions and spontaneity in places where creativity matters (relationships, idea generation, art) and one should be rational and deliberative where that is more important (weighing evidence, executing complex projects, predicting future trends, discerning what is true from what is false etc.). I often think that when some christians say to open one's heart, it is synonymous to the plea for suspension of disbelief one needs to enjoy a good fictional book or play or an animation. There actually are similarities between the activities of believers in a religious ritual to those one encounter among participants of a Live Action Role Play game (real or virtual).

Actually I disagree quite profoundly. And the Christian concept ofthe heart which stands above and beyond both mind and emotions is relevant here. This has different names in different systems.In Freud's later writing he understands superego (I above I) in this way. Sometimes it is called spirit and sometimes the true self. In relationship one is also discerning true from false and one can use these more intuitive faculties to do that. Did you ever read Buber's I and Thou?
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby sayak » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:59 pm

No, I did not, and I am unfamiliar with the categories you are using. Can explain more?
Hasn't Freudian psychology been superceded by more modern approaches based on empirical investigations?
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby spongebob » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:13 pm

sayak wrote:The discussion about heart as pumping organ was a bit frivolous. But Sponge is on the right track when he/she says that opening up completely to our emotional/intuitive/spontaneous/subjective nature is also tantamount to shutting oneself off from the more skeptical/analytical/deliberative aspect of our mind that helps to correct for the many deeply held biases of our "intuitive common sense" mode of thinking/feeling. And this would be greatly detrimental when we are trying to ascertain truths from an objective standpoint. This is clearly illustrated by many years of good psychological research http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/dec/13/thinking-fast-slow-daniel-kahneman. One needs both in life of course, but they have different roles, and one should uses intuitions and spontaneity in places where creativity matters (relationships, idea generation, art) and one should be rational and deliberative where that is more important (weighing evidence, executing complex projects, predicting future trends, discerning what is true from what is false etc.). I often think that when some christians say to open one's heart, it is synonymous to the plea for suspension of disbelief one needs to enjoy a good fictional book or play or an animation. There actually are similarities between the activities of believers in a religious ritual to those one encounter among participants of a Live Action Role Play game (real or virtual).


1. I am a man.

2. I didn't really say those things, though some could be inferred.

The only point I was making is that the brain is where thinking and emotions happen, although I agree that our entire body can be affected by those emotions. As Moon said, our body is all interconnected and when something upsets us emotionally, it can have far reaching physical effects on the rest of the body, as I testified to myself. But I think it's both a mistake and a mischaracterization to say something like, "I felt the pain deep in my heat" unless you mean it metaphorically.

Moon wrote:Actually I disagree quite profoundly. And the Christian concept ofthe heart which stands above and beyond both mind and emotions is relevant here. This has different names in different systems.In Freud's later writing he understands superego (I above I) in this way. Sometimes it is called spirit and sometimes the true self. In relationship one is also discerning true from false and one can use these more intuitive faculties to do that. Did you ever read Buber's I and Thou?


I know people like to philosophize about this sort of thing, but to me it represents nothing beyond metaphor. Our mind is certainly complex and its even difficult for us to understand our own emotions and motivations at times. The bottom line to this is that we may believe we have ourselves figured out, but because much of how we behave is running on auto-pilot, we actually don't; we're just blind to our internal programming in large part. I believe that it can require an outside source to help us evaluate ourselves. I've experienced this sort of thing before and no part of the experience, the revelation or the altering of behavior was religious, but I would call it a spiritual experience only because I think that metaphor works the best.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:53 am

spongebob wrote:
1. I am a man.

2. I didn't really say those things, though some could be inferred.

The only point I was making is that the brain is where thinking and emotions happen, although I agree that our entire body can be affected by those emotions. As Moon said, our body is all interconnected and when something upsets us emotionally, it can have far reaching physical effects on the rest of the body, as I testified to myself. But I think it's both a mistake and a mischaracterization to say something like, "I felt the pain deep in my heat" unless you mean it metaphorically.

To say that the brain is whgere emotions happen is really to reintroduce dualism but in a materialist version. Emotions can not only have effects on our body but can originate in our body or in both brain and body. Furthermore the brain is not a single system and emotions can originate outside conciousness. When someone says 'I felt the pain deepin my heart' it may be metaphorical but the metaphor is a cliche, a dead metaphor, for many people. People say it because Barbara Cartland said it. But for other people this is not metaphorical but phenomenological. Emotional pain is experienced as being in a certain part of the body. This phenomenology may have a metaphorical significance but the metaphor is not deliberate rather the parts of the self of which we are not aware may speak through the body.This is Gendlin's approach and that is why I directed you to him.
I know people like to philosophize about this sort of thing, but to me it represents nothing beyond metaphor. Our mind is certainly complex and its even difficult for us to understand our own emotions and motivations at times. The bottom line to this is that we may believe we have ourselves figured out, but because much of how we behave is running on auto-pilot, we actually don't; we're just blind to our internal programming in large part. I believe that it can require an outside source to help us evaluate ourselves. I've experienced this sort of thing before and no part of the experience, the revelation or the altering of behavior was religious, but I would call it a spiritual experience only because I think that metaphor works the best.

Yes, except that as I say I think this is phenomenological rather than metaphorical. We can learn to know those forces that are outside conciousness and become more aware and less reactive. As Freud said where it was there shall I become.
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Re: Leaving the Faith

Postby spongebob » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:10 pm

Moonwood the Hare wrote:To say that the brain is whgere emotions happen is really to reintroduce dualism but in a materialist version. Emotions can not only have effects on our body but can originate in our body or in both brain and body.


I just don't believe a word of this.

Furthermore the brain is not a single system and emotions can originate outside conciousness.


Don't believe that either.

Emotional pain is experienced as being in a certain part of the body. This phenomenology may have a metaphorical significance but the metaphor is not deliberate rather the parts of the self of which we are not aware may speak through the body.This is Gendlin's approach and that is why I directed you to him.


I'm not as educated on this stuff as you are, obviously, but this just isn't something I buy at any level. I can't say I can prove it, but certainly nothing I've ever experienced suggests that it is true. I do know there is an entire world out there of alternative ideas that make claims of this nature and the vast majority of them have been exposed as nonsense through rigorous experimentation. This seems to fall into that category to me.

This sounds a lot like when people were claiming that individual body parts contained memories, and that memory could be experienced in the recipients of transplants. Of course that was bogus and if I understand what you are saying here; it sounds like nearly the same thing.

Yes, except that as I say I think this is phenomenological rather than metaphorical. We can learn to know those forces that are outside conciousness and become more aware and less reactive. As Freud said where it was there shall I become.


If "Outside consciousness" is referring to some entity or awareness that exists outside one's body, then I see this as nonsense. If you are referring to something within our own mind that we don't have direct access to then yes I agree it is a real thing.
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