Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby Aaron » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:22 pm

spongebob wrote:If you don't have the choice to do destructive things, then there's no freewill at all.

Agree.

spongebob wrote:You are right in part of this, but I just think this dream of someone lifting you out of your own personality is a fantasy. Despite extreme devotion, many, many Christians still find it difficult to avoid stepping over the line. Why this would be any different after death is not clear to me; if Jesus could really work magic and remove all desire to do bad things after death then I don't see why it wouldn't work before death as well.

Yes, I agree Christians do find it difficult, I have plenty of first hand experience. But I also have first hand experience of God changing things about me that I know he had to have done just because I know me, so I do see his power working in my life. But as for why God just doesn't change a person completely at the point of salvation, I'm not exactly sure. It seems he wants there to be a process.


Spongebob wrote:This is a good case in point; the first two humans on the planet and they couldn't resist disobeying god despite knowing him personally. If that's not convincing then I don't know what is.

Yes, I suppose when I think about this the difference for me is that now I am relying on God for righteousness instead of forging a righteousness of my own like they were, so it no longer depends on what I can or can't do, but rather on the mercy and grace and love of God.
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby spongebob » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:46 am

Aaron wrote:Yes, I agree Christians do find it difficult, I have plenty of first hand experience. But I also have first hand experience of God changing things about me that I know he had to have done just because I know me, so I do see his power working in my life. But as for why God just doesn't change a person completely at the point of salvation, I'm not exactly sure. It seems he wants there to be a process.


But you are just manufacturing reasons to explain god's behavior. Mere speculation. Do you really base your entire faith system on such speculation? I would find that incredibly disatisfying. And how do you know it was god that changed you? You say you know yourself, but does that mean you don't believe you are capable of making changes when you really need to? I have made some profound changes to my life and/or behaviors in the past and it was due to feedback from other people and some serious personal reflection. You can call that a connection to god if you like and if it meshes with your worldview, but for me it is nothing but a natural process of a human being looking at himself honestly and deciding to make changes to improve. I don't need prayer or Bible reading to do this stuff, so I give myself the credit.

Yes, I suppose when I think about this the difference for me is that now I am relying on God for righteousness instead of forging a righteousness of my own like they were, so it no longer depends on what I can or can't do, but rather on the mercy and grace and love of God.


It sounds like you are just using talking points. I said that the (supposedly) two first people on the planet, who knew god personally, couldn't stop themselves making "bad" decisions. Now you say that when we go to heaven, god will make it so we won't want to do bad things. This seems like a fantasy to me because people already had that chance and failed. What makes you think it will be any different in heaven? Same people, same god; I see no reason anything would be different unless god plans on giving everyone a lobotomy.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby Chapabel » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:59 pm

spongebob wrote:It sounds like you are just using talking points. I said that the (supposedly) two first people on the planet, who knew god personally, couldn't stop themselves making "bad" decisions. Now you say that when we go to heaven, god will make it so we won't want to do bad things. This seems like a fantasy to me because people already had that chance and failed. What makes you think it will be any different in heaven? Same people, same god; I see no reason anything would be different unless god plans on giving everyone a lobotomy.

The difference is that in Heaven we will be like Christ. We will possess His nature so that no sin will not be a temptation to us. Also, Satan will not be there to tempt us to sin.
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby Simplyme » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:54 am

Chapabel wrote:
spongebob wrote:It sounds like you are just using talking points. I said that the (supposedly) two first people on the planet, who knew god personally, couldn't stop themselves making "bad" decisions. Now you say that when we go to heaven, god will make it so we won't want to do bad things. This seems like a fantasy to me because people already had that chance and failed. What makes you think it will be any different in heaven? Same people, same god; I see no reason anything would be different unless god plans on giving everyone a lobotomy.

The difference is that in Heaven we will be like Christ. We will possess His nature so that no sin will not be a temptation to us. Also, Satan will not be there to tempt us to sin.


Sounds like your saying we will not be capable of sinning. So when you get to heaven your whole personality will be changed? You will be like robots?

So without Satan, we will not be tempted to sin?
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby spongebob » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:57 pm

Chapabel wrote:The difference is that in Heaven we will be like Christ. We will possess His nature so that no sin will not be a temptation to us. Also, Satan will not be there to tempt us to sin.


I see two major problems with this answer. One is that Satan (Lucifer) was there and chose to rebel against god, and he had no one to "tempt" him. He clearly had the free will to choose his own path. So why would we be any different?

Second, you explained the loss of free will with a form of special pleading. "We will be like Christ" doesn't really answer the question. None of us are like him now, so why would we be like him in the afterlife? Again, I can only envision this if we are given a lobotomy and robbed of all will and self-interest. And that doesn't sound like free people; it sounds like automatons or slaves. You are describing a situation where our personalities cease to be our own. I can't imagine why god would even be interested in that. We could easily be just like that now if he wished.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby Aaron » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:23 pm

spongebob wrote:But you are just manufacturing reasons to explain god's behavior. Mere speculation. Do you really base your entire faith system on such speculation? I would find that incredibly disatisfying. And how do you know it was god that changed you? You say you know yourself, but does that mean you don't believe you are capable of making changes when you really need to? I have made some profound changes to my life and/or behaviors in the past and it was due to feedback from other people and some serious personal reflection. You can call that a connection to god if you like and if it meshes with your worldview, but for me it is nothing but a natural process of a human being looking at himself honestly and deciding to make changes to improve. I don't need prayer or Bible reading to do this stuff, so I give myself the credit.

I believe that it was God who changed me. At the end of it I hold that in faith. I am very convinced that I am correct, but I plainly believe that it is grounded on faith. And I find that not only necessary (I don't see what in life doesn't depend on faith at some level), but also comforting, peaceful, and satisfying because it doesn't depend on me. It's God. Ahh, you can relax Aaron. :-)

Spongebob wrote:It sounds like you are just using talking points. I said that the (supposedly) two first people on the planet, who knew god personally, couldn't stop themselves making "bad" decisions. Now you say that when we go to heaven, god will make it so we won't want to do bad things. This seems like a fantasy to me because people already had that chance and failed. What makes you think it will be any different in heaven? Same people, same god; I see no reason anything would be different unless god plans on giving everyone a lobotomy.

Not talking points, just a very commonly pronounced truth in Christianity, it is not my fault that it is relevant here. And again I do think that we're different now that Jesus has come. It is different because the reason we are with him is because of him, not because we have been obedient. We haven't been obedient, but Jesus loves us anyway and his grace and love and mercy conquer all else, we won't be separated from him any longer.
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby spongebob » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:03 pm

Aaron wrote:
spongebob wrote:But you are just manufacturing reasons to explain god's behavior. Mere speculation. Do you really base your entire faith system on such speculation? I would find that incredibly disatisfying. And how do you know it was god that changed you? You say you know yourself, but does that mean you don't believe you are capable of making changes when you really need to? I have made some profound changes to my life and/or behaviors in the past and it was due to feedback from other people and some serious personal reflection. You can call that a connection to god if you like and if it meshes with your worldview, but for me it is nothing but a natural process of a human being looking at himself honestly and deciding to make changes to improve. I don't need prayer or Bible reading to do this stuff, so I give myself the credit.

I believe that it was God who changed me. At the end of it I hold that in faith. I am very convinced that I am correct, but I plainly believe that it is grounded on faith. And I find that not only necessary (I don't see what in life doesn't depend on faith at some level), but also comforting, peaceful, and satisfying because it doesn't depend on me. It's God. Ahh, you can relax Aaron. :-)

Spongebob wrote:It sounds like you are just using talking points. I said that the (supposedly) two first people on the planet, who knew god personally, couldn't stop themselves making "bad" decisions. Now you say that when we go to heaven, god will make it so we won't want to do bad things. This seems like a fantasy to me because people already had that chance and failed. What makes you think it will be any different in heaven? Same people, same god; I see no reason anything would be different unless god plans on giving everyone a lobotomy.

Not talking points, just a very commonly pronounced truth in Christianity, it is not my fault that it is relevant here. And again I do think that we're different now that Jesus has come. It is different because the reason we are with him is because of him, not because we have been obedient. We haven't been obedient, but Jesus loves us anyway and his grace and love and mercy conquer all else, we won't be separated from him any longer.


There's just no response for this. This is just riddles and I don't much care for riddles as answers to profound questions.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby Aaron » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:02 pm

spongebob wrote:
Aaron wrote:
spongebob wrote:But you are just manufacturing reasons to explain god's behavior. Mere speculation. Do you really base your entire faith system on such speculation? I would find that incredibly disatisfying. And how do you know it was god that changed you? You say you know yourself, but does that mean you don't believe you are capable of making changes when you really need to? I have made some profound changes to my life and/or behaviors in the past and it was due to feedback from other people and some serious personal reflection. You can call that a connection to god if you like and if it meshes with your worldview, but for me it is nothing but a natural process of a human being looking at himself honestly and deciding to make changes to improve. I don't need prayer or Bible reading to do this stuff, so I give myself the credit.

I believe that it was God who changed me. At the end of it I hold that in faith. I am very convinced that I am correct, but I plainly believe that it is grounded on faith. And I find that not only necessary (I don't see what in life doesn't depend on faith at some level), but also comforting, peaceful, and satisfying because it doesn't depend on me. It's God. Ahh, you can relax Aaron. :-)

Spongebob wrote:It sounds like you are just using talking points. I said that the (supposedly) two first people on the planet, who knew god personally, couldn't stop themselves making "bad" decisions. Now you say that when we go to heaven, god will make it so we won't want to do bad things. This seems like a fantasy to me because people already had that chance and failed. What makes you think it will be any different in heaven? Same people, same god; I see no reason anything would be different unless god plans on giving everyone a lobotomy.

Not talking points, just a very commonly pronounced truth in Christianity, it is not my fault that it is relevant here. And again I do think that we're different now that Jesus has come. It is different because the reason we are with him is because of him, not because we have been obedient. We haven't been obedient, but Jesus loves us anyway and his grace and love and mercy conquer all else, we won't be separated from him any longer.


There's just no response for this. This is just riddles and I don't much care for riddles as answers to profound questions.


Well let's see, you first stated that my reasons for God's behavior was based on mere speculation, I agreed, but rather than calling it speculation I called it faith. Then you said how you couldn't see a difference between how Adam and Eve were and how we will be in heaven without us losing our autonomy. I said I thought the difference between then and now is Jesus, so whereas Adam and Eve were allowed to remain with God as long as they remained obedient (it depends on them) you have us who are separated and only allowed to be with God because of God (it depends on God and not on us). You have a relationship based on love and grace and forgiveness rather than performance. So we are freed from performing. We are freed from the fear of messing up. And through the transforming power of Christ in our hearts we are freed from our prison of what seems to be inherent bad behavior and are given the ability to live perfectly good lives with God, but it is not a perfection based on performance. It is freedom. Did that help? I will try again? :-)
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby tirtlegrrl » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:09 am

Aaron--So why wasn't Adam and Eve's relationship based on love and grace and forgiveness also? (And does it make a difference for your view if they weren't historical people?) ...It seems rather two-faced of God to deal with people in that way; pre-Jesus people get Law and post-Jesus people get Grace. Or does the Cross work retroactively in time?
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby Aaron » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:58 pm

tirtlegrrl wrote:Aaron--So why wasn't Adam and Eve's relationship based on love and grace and forgiveness also? (And does it make a difference for your view if they weren't historical people?) ...It seems rather two-faced of God to deal with people in that way; pre-Jesus people get Law and post-Jesus people get Grace. Or does the Cross work retroactively in time?

Hi tirtlegrrl,

I don't think people who lived before Jesus missed out on what he did, so yes I do think it worked retroactively in time (though I think it would be more biblically correct to say they are still alive, just not on earth, so they were waiting for God to work it out (I would reference Hebrews 11:13-16 for this) and I would also add that I think this meant that God really did love them and had grace and was willing to forgive, but until there is something to have grace for and to forgive you just can't experience that, I think it is like that in human relationships too, when it first starts out we have clean slates, but then once we mess up - and that's basically guaranteed - there's the opportunity for the relationship to go much deeper than before, because we lose the false pretension I think that we deserve to be with the other person because we haven't messed up and they don't have anything against us, I dunno, relationships just seem different after you've had to make up and forgive each other and that's kind of how I see this one).
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby mitchellmckain » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:10 pm

Aaron wrote:
tirtlegrrl wrote:Aaron--So why wasn't Adam and Eve's relationship based on love and grace and forgiveness also? (And does it make a difference for your view if they weren't historical people?) ...It seems rather two-faced of God to deal with people in that way; pre-Jesus people get Law and post-Jesus people get Grace. Or does the Cross work retroactively in time?

Hi tirtlegrrl,

I don't think people who lived before Jesus missed out on what he did, so yes I do think it worked retroactively in time (though I think it would be more biblically correct to say they are still alive, just not on earth, so they were waiting for God to work it out (I would reference Hebrews 11:13-16 for this) and I would also add that I think this meant that God really did love them and had grace and was willing to forgive, but until there is something to have grace for and to forgive you just can't experience that, I think it is like that in human relationships too, when it first starts out we have clean slates, but then once we mess up - and that's basically guaranteed - there's the opportunity for the relationship to go much deeper than before, because we lose the false pretension I think that we deserve to be with the other person because we haven't messed up and they don't have anything against us, I dunno, relationships just seem different after you've had to make up and forgive each other and that's kind of how I see this one).


The way I see it, the word "retro-active" doesn't even apply. The spiritual reality isn't a part of the space and time of the physical universe so the temporal ordering of events in the physical universe is irrelevant to spiritual matters.
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby Aaron » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:38 am

mitchellmckain wrote:
Aaron wrote:
tirtlegrrl wrote:Aaron--So why wasn't Adam and Eve's relationship based on love and grace and forgiveness also? (And does it make a difference for your view if they weren't historical people?) ...It seems rather two-faced of God to deal with people in that way; pre-Jesus people get Law and post-Jesus people get Grace. Or does the Cross work retroactively in time?

Hi tirtlegrrl,

I don't think people who lived before Jesus missed out on what he did, so yes I do think it worked retroactively in time (though I think it would be more biblically correct to say they are still alive, just not on earth, so they were waiting for God to work it out (I would reference Hebrews 11:13-16 for this) and I would also add that I think this meant that God really did love them and had grace and was willing to forgive, but until there is something to have grace for and to forgive you just can't experience that, I think it is like that in human relationships too, when it first starts out we have clean slates, but then once we mess up - and that's basically guaranteed - there's the opportunity for the relationship to go much deeper than before, because we lose the false pretension I think that we deserve to be with the other person because we haven't messed up and they don't have anything against us, I dunno, relationships just seem different after you've had to make up and forgive each other and that's kind of how I see this one).


The way I see it, the word "retro-active" doesn't even apply. The spiritual reality isn't a part of the space and time of the physical universe so the temporal ordering of events in the physical universe is irrelevant to spiritual matters.

I agree.
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby Simplyme » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:08 am

Agree with what?

What he said sounds like fantasy to me. It truly makes no sense(in the real world).
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Resurrection - physical, spiritual, both or neither?

Postby Aaron » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:24 pm

Simplyme wrote:Agree with what?

What he said sounds like fantasy to me. It truly makes no sense(in the real world).

Agree that retro-active isn't the best word for the job.
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