What kind of god

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What kind of god

Postby spongebob » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:10 pm

I can think of two kinds of god that might exist. One is based on the top down, authoritarian god of the bible thumping Christians like Clare and Chapabel and others. There are varieties within their kind but they all center on specific traits. So in their world, humans are like dogs and god is like the master. In some of those, the dog is kept on a very short lease; he's an inside dog that is well groomed, told when to go out, when to eat, expected to perform tricks and to be obedient. In others the dog might get to roam around the yard but is still kept within a fence and fed once a day and expected to come when called and perhaps fetch as well. This god threatens its dogs with whippings if they disobey and promises them wonderful things if they obey. The dogs will never understand the master because they are too simple and the master's manner is too bewildering. These and others are all forms of a controlling god-human paradigm like the one I was raised to believe.

Another sort of god that I can envision is one in which god created the earth and everything else in some way and marvels at how it develops. This god does not direct or force his will upon anything, but rather is available for guidance when called upon. You could even say that this god leaves clues in the wind and the sands for anyone who is looking, words of wisdom and perhaps encouragement but would never put something in print as that would be too obvious. This god would like to see things run smoothly on his creation but isn't interested in forcing the matter because that would defeat the purpose of creating something that was alive. He merely watches his amazing work of art ebb and flow and develop, perhaps pondering what he might do in the next creation event. His words of wisdom could help his creations along if they decided to listen but he promises neither reward or punishment for not listening because that is not his nature and there is nothing beyond their lives to promise or threaten. The lives of all creatures are the same, from the smallest ant to the grandest elephant. When they are done, they return to the dust from which they came and another generation replaces them and the experiment continues and god watches on, observing his creation. This theory, incomplete at it is, seems more consistent with reality than the former.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: What kind of god

Postby sayak » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:29 pm

Truly? With all the suffering that exists in the world, how is it consistent sponge?
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Re: What kind of god

Postby Chapabel » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:20 am

I agree with sayak here. I refuse to accept a simple deist's approach to God. What type of God would create everything then just let it go to pot? What type of God would not punish evil in the end? That god would be a monster.

BTW, if I'm a dog, I want a master to love me, feed me, protect me and make the best decisions on my behalf...even if He does keep me inside the fence. The fence may not be meant to keep me in as much as it is meant to keep harm out. :D I love my Master.
To be right with God has often meant to be in trouble with men. -- A.W. Tozer
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Re: What kind of god

Postby mitchellmckain » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:56 pm

sayak wrote:Truly? With all the suffering that exists in the world, how is it consistent sponge?


Actually I think both are consistent with that.

1. The first one doesn't give shit. We are just dogs after all. He may be fond of a cute or useful hound now and then, BUT if they bit Him, he has no reason not to put them down.

For the second one, I would divide this into two different options because spongebob's description does sound like it is between two different classic options. But it is not completely the Deist God because he does say God is available and that He does offer guidance.

2. There is the God who has chosen love and freedom over power and control. That means He doesn't need everything go the way He think it should all the time. He lets people live their own lives, find themselves and make choices. There is an eternity of time to patch things up and make things better, after the whole rule driven game of life is over. But that doesn't mean He doesn't take part in events within those rules to make sure the whole picture stays true to His intent.

3. The Deist God is a third option. For him it is just an experiment to watch. He cares even less than the dog owner. It reminds me of that line in the film "Constantine" (with Keanu Reeves), "God is just a kid with an ant-farm lady."
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Re: What kind of god

Postby spongebob » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:20 pm

Chapabel wrote:I agree with sayak here. I refuse to accept a simple deist's approach to God. What type of God would create everything then just let it go to pot?


As mitch pointed out, my second "theory of god" is not exactly deist and he/it isn't exactly letting anything go to pot. He is observing and is there to offer guidance if asked, a willing participant but not one interested in forcing the matter. And your question begs the question, is everything "going to pot"? You don't know the answer to that is yes in this hypothetical world. In the real world you have expressed the opinion that things are just getting "worse", whatever that means to you. But I disagree. I believe this opinion is biased on your Christian perspective. I believe you are merely selecting the information that confirms this judgement and ignoring the rest. If I were to gauge the status of the world, I would first say the time frame must be determined as well as the area. Over just about any given time period there will be both good and bad developments. I would say that the game is generally zero sum but that's only a cursory comment; I don't have any reliable way to judge this any more than you do, Chapabel. But at least I'm not claiming that I do know the answer.

What type of God would not punish evil in the end? That god would be a monster.


That's exactly the way I would describe god #1, one which sets arbitrary rules which allow people who have been wonderful examples of the human condition to suffer the same fate as fiends responsible for genocide. God #2 is not interested in punishing its creations because there is no point to it. Their lives are not that long anyway and the number of lives is massive. I wouldn't say those lives don't matter to him, but that given the numbers and the choices available, it's no surprise to him that some bad things will happen.

BTW, if I'm a dog, I want a master to love me, feed me, protect me and make the best decisions on my behalf...even if He does keep me inside the fence. The fence may not be meant to keep me in as much as it is meant to keep harm out. :D I love my Master.


Unlike you, I have no interest in being anyone's pet.

Sayak wrote:Truly? With all the suffering that exists in the world, how is it consistent sponge?


I don't know what you mean. There is suffering, yes. God #2 does not make it his job to prevent suffering. He is interested in seeing what his creations do; how they interact over the long term. He's perfectly willing to help out a little along the way but only if asked. He doesn't have any place to send creatures when they die. When they die they return to dirt and new one's replace them. By the way I observe the world, this is very consistent with reality. There are good people and bad people and people in between. Sometimes good things happen to both good and to bad people, and vice versa. There is no rhyme or reason to it. Even a very callous dog owner generally makes an effort to take care of his dog when it's being mistreated by others, so for that reason, god #1 is rejected.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: What kind of god

Postby Baz86 » Thu May 07, 2015 12:25 am

Deism = Deadbeat Dad

I can't speak for others but I do know my perception of my physical father affects my perception of God growing up.
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Re: What kind of god

Postby devolved » Sat May 09, 2015 6:14 am

Chapabel wrote:I agree with sayak here. I refuse to accept a simple deist's approach to God. What type of God would create everything then just let it go to pot? What type of God would not punish evil in the end? That god would be a monster.

BTW, if I'm a dog, I want a master to love me, feed me, protect me and make the best decisions on my behalf...even if He does keep me inside the fence. The fence may not be meant to keep me in as much as it is meant to keep harm out. :D I love my Master.


How about a Scientist type of God? How about a game designer type of God? :)

It may be that God doesn't know it all, and doesn't know the future, and our reality is one of many experiments through which God plays out simulated possibilities.

The point being, we can't reduce possibilities of God to an either or dichotomy.

PS. What we want is irrelevant when it comes to any given reality.
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Re: What kind of god

Postby Chapabel » Mon May 18, 2015 7:24 am

devolved wrote:
Chapabel wrote:I agree with sayak here. I refuse to accept a simple deist's approach to God. What type of God would create everything then just let it go to pot? What type of God would not punish evil in the end? That god would be a monster.

BTW, if I'm a dog, I want a master to love me, feed me, protect me and make the best decisions on my behalf...even if He does keep me inside the fence. The fence may not be meant to keep me in as much as it is meant to keep harm out. :D I love my Master.


How about a Scientist type of God? How about a game designer type of God? :)

It may be that God doesn't know it all, and doesn't know the future, and our reality is one of many experiments through which God plays out simulated possibilities.

The point being, we can't reduce possibilities of God to an either or dichotomy.

PS. What we want is irrelevant when it comes to any given reality.

If God didn't know it all, He wouldn't be God. Has it ever occurred to you that nothing occurs to God?
To be right with God has often meant to be in trouble with men. -- A.W. Tozer
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Re: What kind of god

Postby Keep The Reason » Mon May 18, 2015 5:18 pm

Chapabel wrote:If God didn't know it all, He wouldn't be God. Has it ever occurred to you that nothing occurs to God?


No wonder he's so obsessed with blood letting. He must be bored out of his tits and needs to vent some rage.

I've always wondered -- What did god do in the infinity before he decided to create something?

Being god, and living eternally, seems like a curse to me.
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
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Re: What kind of god

Postby mitchellmckain » Tue May 19, 2015 6:19 am

Keep The Reason wrote:I've always wondered -- What did god do in the infinity before he decided to create something?

This presumes a universal Euclidean measure of time which is not warranted or scientifically justified.

Keep The Reason wrote:Being god, and living eternally, seems like a curse to me.

It doesn't take much to imagine a god that doesn't make sense, and you cannot think that actually proves anything.
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Re: What kind of god

Postby kjw47 » Wed May 27, 2015 4:38 pm

sayak wrote:Truly? With all the suffering that exists in the world, how is it consistent sponge?


One must understand the events of the garden of Eden(Paradise)--When satan told Eve they would become like God, knowing good and bad. It was a direct challenge to Gods universal sovereignty in front of all creation( 2 humans and millions of spirit beings) basically saying if we knew both sides ourselves we wouldn't need to listen to God to choose the best course to find lasting happiness.
1) God could have killed them on the spot, but then the seed would as well have died right there and everyone who ever was born wouldn't have been given life. With justice involved in all matters with God, he couldn't do that.
2) So instead--once and for all time it is being proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt--do we as mortals need Gods advice to find lasting happiness? the answer is yes---God created mortals to know only good, to live forever , not aging nor being sick or in pain and the such. Our first human parents chose this path. And God was correct to let it be proved once and for all time--because 1/3 of the spirit beings fell along the way--that means it probably would have kept on happening over and over--so now we all must choose. not by words alone but by actions.
-- When the silence has broken--
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Re: What kind of god

Postby sayak » Thu May 28, 2015 10:35 am

kjw, you wrote nothing here that is worth replying to. So I will pass.
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