Jesus' really bad weekend

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Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Rian » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:48 pm

(Here's hoping that I'll be able to have less "really bad weekends" and be able to actually discuss this! :D )

I saw this phrase used just recently, and it reminded me of when I first heard it used here on this board by some atheists a few years back, and I found it really intriguing, and we had an interesting discussion which didn't really get finished.

Are there any atheists that would be willing to state their thoughts on this to start things off, or should I try to state it?
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Particles » Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:36 pm

Sure, I'll go. The phrase is saying that Jesus didn't really suffer much comparatively, especially if being God, he would know it'd be over in a coupla days. His crucifixion was said to be shorter than usual even. And so, it's not really as much of a sacrifice as Christianity markets it.

I guess you don't think this is right?
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Jesus Raves » Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:09 pm

Taking the myth literally: God's sacrifice of his son--and Jesus' sacrifice of himself--isn't much of a sacrifice; Jesus faces horrible pain and humiliation--but not an unheard of level of pain and humiliation--and then he's alive again after only a few days. Clearly, though, the story of the physical crucifixion is a metaphor for a far more agonizing spiritual punishment for which Jesus makes himself the scapegoat so that he can redeem (some of) mankind. I'm not sure how spiritual punishment works--as I'm familiar only with real-life punishment--but I assume it isn't pleasant.

Even though the punishment is more severe than just crucifixion, I still don't see how it's a sacrifice worthy of redeeming billions of their allegedly death-deserving sins, especially considering that Jesus doesn't actually have to sacrifice himself--he gets to return to life on Earth and, soon after, life in Heaven. And ultimately, both God and Jesus get what they're always wanting: more humans to love and adore them--and more humans saved from the Underworld terror God created. Doesn't sound like much of a sacrifice to me, not much lost there. It's more of a transaction than a sacrifice--"I take the fall for you, and in exchange, you smother me with praise... forever."
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby searchengineguy » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:31 am

I'll add my two cents worth here too. How about the poor bastards that are sentenced to Hell? They get an eternity of torture which makes Jesus’s short term agony insignificant by comparison.

I put all the previous Atheist viewpoints to a Morman friend of mine a while ago and he nearly had an apoplectic fit. When he recovered he said something like, "the sacrifice was the severe pain that he went through because of his love for mankind." I said "Compare 6 hours of crucifixion to 6 months of dying from cancer. What would you prefer?"
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Simplyme » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:39 pm

I heard this somewhere, but I think it applies to this.

"God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself"
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Rian » Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm

Particles wrote:Sure, I'll go. The phrase is saying that Jesus didn't really suffer much comparatively, especially if being God, he would know it'd be over in a coupla days. His crucifixion was said to be shorter than usual even. And so, it's not really as much of a sacrifice as Christianity markets it.

I guess you don't think this is right?

What I thought it was, was intriguing. I spent a lot of time thinking about it, as in "if true, what would that mean? If not true, how so? Or is it true, but irrelevant to the discussion point?" That's one reason I like this board; I come across ideas that I haven't come across before.

Because this idea usually comes up in the context of salvation (i.e., Jesus' suffering on the cross), two ideas arose in connection with this scenario - the straightforward one of the relative amount of suffering (with a sub-topic of is it even right that Jesus should have survived), but also a related one of the relative amount of power/strength.

As I thought about it, I remembered something I had read once years ago that touched on the latter point above (the power/strength thing). It was in answer to a complaint along the lines of "Sure Jesus could save us - he's a lot stronger than we are". The author pointed out that that wasn't a bad thing; if you were drowning in a raging river (and you were an average swimmer, btw), which person would you prefer to jump in and join you in the water - another average swimmer, who would totally understand what you were going through and would drown side-by-side with you in perfect understanding, or an Olympic swimmer, who could actually save you? IOW, the point was not some "well, but he's BETTER than I am!" thing; it was that if it was a simple fact that you were drowning in a river, and you wanted to live, wouldn't you PREFER that the one jumping in after you was stronger than you were?

And ... I just ran out of time (dinner calls!) and will have to hit the second point later.
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Tim-the-Hermit » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:04 am

searchengineguy wrote:I'll add my two cents worth here too. How about the poor bastards that are sentenced to Hell? They get an eternity of torture which makes Jesus’s short term agony insignificant by comparison.

I put all the previous Atheist viewpoints to a Morman friend of mine a while ago and he nearly had an apoplectic fit. When he recovered he said something like, "the sacrifice was the severe pain that he went through because of his love for mankind." I said "Compare 6 hours of crucifixion to 6 months of dying from cancer. What would you prefer?"


Yes, it's like being sentenced to 100 years in prison and then somebody steps forward and says 'no, I'll take your punishment for you, here's 25 pence for the fine.'

But that's only really in reply yo those who take it all very literally.
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Simplyme » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:22 am

Tim-the-Hermit wrote:
searchengineguy wrote:I'll add my two cents worth here too. How about the poor bastards that are sentenced to Hell? They get an eternity of torture which makes Jesus’s short term agony insignificant by comparison.

I put all the previous Atheist viewpoints to a Morman friend of mine a while ago and he nearly had an apoplectic fit. When he recovered he said something like, "the sacrifice was the severe pain that he went through because of his love for mankind." I said "Compare 6 hours of crucifixion to 6 months of dying from cancer. What would you prefer?"


Yes, it's like being sentenced to 100 years in prison and then somebody steps forward and says 'no, I'll take your punishment for you, here's 25 pence for the fine.'

But that's only really in reply yo those who take it all very literally.


It's more like being sentence to eternity in prison(hell) and then the one who sentenced you to eternity steps forward and say's "no, I will take the punishment I inflicted on you" upon myself. And mind you, even after this sacrifice of 7 days, the odds of you reaching heaven is still .000001%.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby somecallmeTim? » Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:33 pm

Particles wrote:Sure, I'll go. The phrase is saying that Jesus didn't really suffer much comparatively, especially if being God, he would know it'd be over in a coupla days. His crucifixion was said to be shorter than usual even. And so, it's not really as much of a sacrifice as Christianity markets it.

I guess you don't think this is right?

These kinds of statements show a lack of understanding of what the crucifixion was all about. "Really didn't suffer that much"? Research what it was like to be crucified (even if shorter than usual - 3 hours). It excruciating. Not to mention the scourging he took beforehand, which ripped the flesh out of his back.

Regardless, the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't about the amount of pain. It was this: Jesus was without sin - yet he took on all our sin on the cross - and God the Father turned his back on him ("why have you forsaken me"). He didn't deserve to die, but did so in order provide a lasting sacrifice for our sin. Others have suffered more; but that's not the point.
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Jesus Raves » Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:46 pm

You left out a vital component of that sentence, SCMT: "...really didn't suffer much comparatively..." Did your eyes skip over that last word?
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Razor » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:03 pm

somecallmeTim? wrote:Regardless, the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't about the amount of pain. It was this: Jesus was without sin - yet he took on all our sin on the cross - and God the Father turned his back on him ("why have you forsaken me"). He didn't deserve to die, but did so in order provide a lasting sacrifice for our sin. Others have suffered more; but that's not the point.


Isn't the point that he didn't really die? More like had a long nap? Else the rest of the book makes even less sense than before.

Out of interest, why did God turn his back on him? Seems like a bit of a shitty move really, as God should have known that Jesus was without sin. If he didn't I'd say God should've been paying a little more attention, especially as Jesus was his only child. Maybe God should have waited until after some good patenting self-help books were written before inseminating a poor unsuspecting virgin?
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby One16Unashamed » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:25 pm

He took the full wrath of God, that is why He sweated blood in the garden, it wasn't death, the physical pain it was the full cup of Gods wrath that terrified Him.
"In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that-and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison-you do not know God." -C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Simplyme » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:32 pm

One16Unashamed wrote:He took the full wrath of God, that is why He sweated blood in the garden, it wasn't death, the physical pain it was the full cup of Gods wrath that terrified Him.


Was that what it was? I guess we are glad he relayed that information to you, or we would be lost.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Og3 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:38 am

Tim-the-Hermit wrote:
searchengineguy wrote:I'll add my two cents worth here too. How about the poor bastards that are sentenced to Hell? They get an eternity of torture which makes Jesus’s short term agony insignificant by comparison.

I put all the previous Atheist viewpoints to a Morman friend of mine a while ago and he nearly had an apoplectic fit. When he recovered he said something like, "the sacrifice was the severe pain that he went through because of his love for mankind." I said "Compare 6 hours of crucifixion to 6 months of dying from cancer. What would you prefer?"
Yes, it's like being sentenced to 100 years in prison and then somebody steps forward and says 'no, I'll take your punishment for you, here's 25 pence for the fine.'

But that's only really in reply yo those who take it all very literally.

One must consider that a substantial degree of humiliation was also involved. Here was the very creator of the universe, and he chooses to take on the flesh of His creation as if he were one of them. And not even a powerful one, but a simple man with maybe two changes of clothes, who may or may not know where his next meal is coming from. And the powerful people all hate Him.

And then He's falsely accused of crimes, and then he's punched out by a group of men who really know how to make it hurt, and then he's judged again, and then he's beaten bloody, so badly that had he lived he might never have fully recovered, and then he's judged again. Still his accusers are merciless, and still they demand his blood. More of it. This is the creator, mind you. It would take a lot less than the Forty-minus-one to make me curse my tormentors. And my curses would merely be vain words.

But Jesus? Not a word. He just takes it, even though he could stop it, and even though it's pretty brutal, and even though he doesn't deserve it -- it's not fair! But they still sentence him to die, on false charges, and force him to carry a cross, and then they nail him to it, naked and bloody, in front of everyone who has ever loved him, and in front of his enemies. But gasping for breath -- that's the cruel part of crucifixion, you see: you have to keep pushing up with your feet to get a breath, and eventually your feet just won't push any more. That's why they usually finished it off by breaking legs. By the time the spear went through him, Jesus was already dead.

But here's the thing: The thieves on the sides of him, who went through the physical torture of dying by crucifixion -- they had to endure it. Jesus didn't. He could have said, "That's it. I quit." and it would have been over. He had that additional torture of knowing that a word would stop the misery. But he didn't do that. He didn't quit. He stuck it out until He could say, "It is finished."

Who here would do even one part of that for someone else?

Suppose that your child were expelled from school, and you could get them back into school by going to the principal and saying in front of the school staff and the students, "Everything I have ever believed is completely wrong, and I am a fake and a fraud." Would you do that? Let everyone believe you were a fraud, and renounce your entire life, and all your principles? Because that is what the crucifixion meant to the pharisees; they believed he was showing that he was just a fake and a fraud. It made his claims to be God seem false. After all, God would have struck them all dead, right?

I suspect that very few would allow themselves to be humiliated, even without the torture. I suspect that none of us would allow ourselves to be displayed naked, even without all the other parts. As I said before, if you beat me like the soldiers beat Christ, my inclination would be to grab a two-by-four and give some of it back. I wouldn't take that much. And the forty-minus-one? I consider myself a manly man, but before the thirtieth stroke I'd be crying and asking for mercy. Before twenty, probably. Would you willingly take that, knowing you could make them stop, even to save someone else?

And on it goes. That "pretty bad weekend" would make every single one of you weep for your mommies. Even small parts of it. But you want to wave it away, "Oh, it wasn't that bad?" Well, fine then, you're more heroic than God. Be proud of that, and see where it takes you.
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Re: Jesus' really bad weekend

Postby Tim-the-Hermit » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:56 am

It's still three days.
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