How to create a universe in 7 days ...

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How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby Rian » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:35 pm

Hey SEG, here's the topic I was talking about. I like chatting with you, and after such a nice Thanksgiving (at the Grand Canyon!) I wanted to have at least one discussion free from nasty comments, so I'm putting it in here.

I don't know why it entered my mind, but I was just thinking again - if I were God, and I wanted to create a universe with beings in it that have a huge amount of free will (enough so that it's very meaningful), how would I do it? especially in terms of balancing free will with the ability of people to hurt others. Also would some type of "hell" be necessary, if "heaven" meant being with God and some people do not want this?

Anyway, just a thread to kind of float thoughts and ideas about how creating beings with free will could look. Any CL member is welcome to share their thoughts! :)
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby spongebob » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:55 am

Rian, this is certainly an interesting topic for discussion, and actually a non-partisan one too. While I don't have a good idea to answer the question directly, I believe there are at least two analogies that put your question to test.

The first is children. In a way we "create" children. Not nearly as many as god is purported to have created (all of them) but still each couple usually produces 2 or 3, maybe more. We have the exact same quandary; we want our children live full and rich lives but we want them to stay away from danger and we don't want them to be evil or cruel people, right? We can't provide them with actual free will, but we sort of constrain their free will with rules and restrictions and we often punish bad behavior (they think it's like Hell). To me this appears to be a nearly exact template for the god figure.

Another area that we will likely enter into very soon is artificial intelligence. Here humans will have the capacity to create many, many individuals and we actually have the capacity to determine or restrict their free will; we can encode it into their very minds. A version of hell we have the ability to create for them is decommissioning. So like Asimov's Three Laws predicts, I believe we will do these very things because to not do them could mean our own destruction.

Sorry if this is a diversion to the topic, but this is just the idea that first came to mind when I read the OP.
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby marcuspnw » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:30 pm

Rian wrote:I don't know why it entered my mind, but I was just thinking again - if I were God, and I wanted to create a universe with beings in it that have a huge amount of free will (enough so that it's very meaningful), how would I do it? especially in terms of balancing free will with the ability of people to hurt others. Also would some type of "hell" be necessary, if "heaven" meant being with God and some people do not want this?



Hi Rian,

May I ask a couple of questions first?

First of all, why should you create anything? I am assuming you are a perfect God.
Secondly, why give the particulars in your universe life?

This is a good topic and could be fun.
Another day, another step closer to the answer. How many more steps do I have I wonder?
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby searchengineguy » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:36 pm

Rian wrote:Hey SEG, here's the topic I was talking about. I like chatting with you, and after such a nice Thanksgiving (at the Grand Canyon!) I wanted to have at least one discussion free from nasty comments, so I'm putting it in here.

I don't know why it entered my mind, but I was just thinking again - if I were God, and I wanted to create a universe with beings in it that have a huge amount of free will (enough so that it's very meaningful), how would I do it? especially in terms of balancing free will with the ability of people to hurt others. Also would some type of "hell" be necessary, if "heaven" meant being with God and some people do not want this?

Anyway, just a thread to kind of float thoughts and ideas about how creating beings with free will could look. Any CL member is welcome to share their thoughts! :)

G'day Rian, I was wondering what you were proposing, thanks for letting me in on this. I like chatting with you too! Glad to hear you enjoyed the Grand Canyon. We will get a chance to see it in 2018 when we go to Las Vegas for the first time as part of the World Vets Table Tennis Championships.

If I were God, I wouldn't like to hurt anyone, even for a moment if I had the power. Hell would never be necessary. The concept is terribly unjust, as its an infinite punishment for finite crimes. Think of the worst possible criminal, and let's now make it personal. A mass murderer has become a dictator that has wiped out all of his people and has raped, tortured and murdered your mother. He gets convicted on your testimony and is sentenced to life imprisonment after you get to dish out an unlimited amount of punishment by electrical shocks to all parts of his body that are highly sensitive to pain. You can deliver unlimited amounts of shocks that won't kill him, but will cause severe pain. How long would you do it to him daily to vent your anger and deliver justice?

A week? A month? A year? 10 years? 50 years? I could probably do it to him for a couple of months before my revenge got slaked. How long would you keep going?

If you are like the God of the Bible, such a person and people just down to "sinning" non-believers would get torture without remiss for infinity. Is that fair or in any way just?

Regarding floating up to Heaven and being with God, I would imagine it would get very boring after a while being overwhelmed with bliss every single day for eternity. Sure, it would be fantastic meeting all your dead relatives again, including your great-great-great-great grandparents etc. , but then what? After you have read all the books, seen all the sights and experienced everything possible after a couple of hundred years, then what? Sit on the right side of God, pray to and adore him? How boring would that be? Could you imagine sitting in Church every day for a year listening to sermons, let alone eternity?

Sorry, but to me it seems very banal. I cherish living on this wonderful Earth with my family and friends, and I want to as long as possible. The end of life doesn't really bother me, as I've had a great life against enormous odds every since I was a tiny little Sammy Sperm.
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby searchengineguy » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:01 pm

spongebob wrote:The first is children. In a way we "create" children. Not nearly as many as god is purported to have created (all of them) but still each couple usually produces 2 or 3, maybe more. We have the exact same quandary; we want our children live full and rich lives but we want them to stay away from danger and we don't want them to be evil or cruel people, right? We can't provide them with actual free will, but we sort of constrain their free will with rules and restrictions and we often punish bad behavior (they think it's like Hell). To me this appears to be a nearly exact template for the god figure.

I think that's a good analogy Sponge. I think the difference is that at a certain stage after being guided and educated by our parents, we mature into adults and begin living our own adult lives.

Religious people IMO don't want to let go of the guiding hands of their mentors for whatever reasons. I remember going back home as a young adult. It was great for a couple of days, but then I just wanted to be independent again and couldn't wait to break free again.

spongebob wrote:Another area that we will likely enter into very soon is artificial intelligence. Here humans will have the capacity to create many, many individuals and we actually have the capacity to determine or restrict their free will; we can encode it into their very minds. A version of hell we have the ability to create for them is decommissioning. So like Asimov's Three Laws predicts, I believe we will do these very things because to not do them could mean our own destruction.


Yes, that will bring up a lot of ethical debate. A lot of Christians believe that God as a creator can do what he likes to his creations, as they are in effect his own property. That would mean ipso facto that we could do whatever we pleased with our own creations. That concept is not at all ethical IMO.
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby spongebob » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:54 pm

searchengineguy wrote:Yes, that will bring up a lot of ethical debate. A lot of Christians believe that God as a creator can do what he likes to his creations, as they are in effect his own property. That would mean ipso facto that we could do whatever we pleased with our own creations. That concept is not at all ethical IMO.


Very good idea to capture, and I hope this isn't going too far off from Rian's topic. My apologies if it is. I don't believe any of the more progressive Christians here would favor this position, but the more fundamental ones very well may and that's something that I've never been comfortable with, even as a practicing Baptist. Nothing in the Bible says to me that god should have the right to abuse his own creation if his intention was a free life and his profession of love is genuine. These two things are contradictory. You simply cannot allow a thing to have it's freedom if you don't allow them to have it or you are going to punish them for choosing differently than you wish. So if we apply this to our children, we can see that they in fact do not have complete freedom of their life until they are on their own. I know detractors would say that our restrictions on our children are for their own good and that's partly true, but then it's also true that our restrictions often have little to do with protecting them and more to do with directing them into a life that we choose for them. For example, do Christians ask their young children if they wish to be slowly and consistently conditioned to become Christians? Absolutely not. And is there any evidence that says one must be a Christian to have a successful life? Of course not; it's about what the parents want.
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby Rian » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:44 pm

(just peeking my head in - I'm having a busy weekend - but wanted to say I don't mind diversions at all! Thanks for checking though :) )
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby searchengineguy » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:46 pm

spongebob wrote:For example, do Christians ask their young children if they wish to be slowly and consistently conditioned to become Christians? Absolutely not. And is there any evidence that says one must be a Christian to have a successful life? Of course not; it's about what the parents want.

It comes down to control, and their god has absolute control. It's impossible for him to do any wrong as he is God, right? That concept has led to enourmous division and meaningles s suffering across all major religions.

It reminds me of Craig justifying the killing of Canaanite children on the orders of God in Deuteronomy. Their parents deserved to die in his mind because they were debauched and evil. The innocent children themselves suffered little as they would be granted early salvation, and apparently the hardest done by were the slaughtering soldiers, as they were bound by God's orders to run them through.

It's never God's fault, as he has these amazing plans that we must submit to for the greater good, whatever that may be. Sometimes that greater good may not be easy to see, but hey, he's God, hallelujah!
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby searchengineguy » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:56 pm

Rian wrote:(just peeking my head in - I'm having a busy weekend - but wanted to say I don't mind diversions at all! Thanks for checking though :) )

Me too, I just wake up first :) Have a great weekend and when you get a chance, could you explain this?
"if I were God, and I wanted to create a universe with beings in it that have a huge amount of free will (enough so that it's very meaningful)"

How much is enough? If I were a god, I wouldn't bother with free will at all, it apparently causes evil. I would create robots that could only do good and be nice to each other.
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby spongebob » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:51 pm

Rian wrote:I don't know why it entered my mind, but I was just thinking again - if I were God, and I wanted to create a universe with beings in it that have a huge amount of free will (enough so that it's very meaningful), how would I do it? especially in terms of balancing free will with the ability of people to hurt others. Also would some type of "hell" be necessary, if "heaven" meant being with God and some people do not want this?


I'm going to try and bend this back to the actual OP, let's see how well I do.

For starters, I don't recognize this idea that anyone doesn't want to be with god, excluding the mentally disturbed. Let's all just agree on that, ok? Not in our current world anyway. There is no objective evidence that any particular god exists, that any particular heaven exists or that it is attainable through any set of rules or beliefs. Rian, I know this is something you believe in, but surely you can agree that there is no definitive evidence that says that yes, belief in your god in a certain way guarantees this, agreed? If I say that holding a 12 gauge shotgun into your mouth and pulling the trigger will almost certainly kill you, we would all agree that this is true, right? Now, compare that to the certainty that belief in the Christian god by the rules of, say, the United Methodist Church will guarantee entry into heaven. What sort of comparison are we talking about here, maybe 10%? Now include all of the world's religions and do the math. So I think it is clear that this illustrates that the question is not whether anyone doesn't want to be with "god" when they die, but rather whether they feel that such beliefs hold any merit.

So if I were capable of creating sentient beings, the question becomes can I create them with the capacity for intellectual thought and creativity and yet limit their ability to hurt one another. I think the likely answer to this is "no". I wouldn't claim to know everything that is involved here, but it's just my sense that what we see in humanity is what the package offers. The sad thing is that we all have the capacity to choose good over evil, love over hate, peace over violence, each time we make a decision. So this is something that may severely limit the development of artificial forms of life as we move forward in technology. Without complete freedom of thought and action, it's possible that sentience cannot progress beyond a certain point. So, as I said in an earlier post, I expect AI beings to be limited by Asimov's three laws, and it's entirely possible that this may limit their range of intellect and emotion. There's all sorts of room for me to be wrong about this but this is where I think we're going.
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby Rian » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:56 pm

I'm going to throw my own thoughts into the pot before responding to the other posts:


(except I'll start with Marcuspnw's question because it's a good starting point that I hadn't thought of)

Marcuspnw wrote:First of all, why should you create anything? I am assuming you are a perfect God.

I'd like to hear why you put those two sentences together, marcuspnw. Do you see a relationship between the two? I'm guessing that you're saying what I've heard others say, that if you are perfect, that means you don't need or want anything, so there's no need to create anything; is that what you mean?

I think with the onset of technology, the idea of a machine-type of thing being "perfect" has lead to a view of God that is more like he's the perfect machine. However, I just don't see that in the Bible. I see God as very relational; his very essence is a Trinity, in fact, so even before creating the universe (and I'm using a simplistic view of time) God is in relationship. And I think that just as people love to create, so does God; in fact, I think that's one way we are made in his image. So the way I see God, creating a universe is a natural thing to do, both relationally and creatively. Intriguing question!

However, as several people brought up, there is definitely a question of good/bad options. I think what expresses it really well for me is in Milton's Paradise Lost where there is a scene where God is in Heaven, kind of musing out loud about whether or not he should create people with free will. It's kind of a "I know this will be a glorious and wonderful thing, yet there will be terrible tragedy and sorrow which will hurt people and separate people from me; is it worth it, and who will step in and repair the breach?" Milton then portrays a silence, until Jesus speaks up and says, basically, "I will be the one; I will enter creation as a man, and I will take the responsibility of the creation upon myself."

It's really beautiful poetry. and it expresses, for me, the answer to the statement that I've heard often - "If God made creation, then He should take responsibility for it!" He did take responsibility for it, in the person of Jesus.

And free will is SO important for anything meaningful, IMO - I think love is the greatest thing, and love, IMO, is meaningless without free will. So many things are meaningless without free will.

(Anyway, I do NOT mean this to be preaching at ALL; I'm just sharing my thoughts on the subject, and as a Christian, they're going to be Christian thoughts because those are the ones I think are right. But they definitely aren't just mindlessly regurgitating talking points; they are things that I've pondered on for years, and I disagree with some Christians on some major points.)

So to turn it more personal - I think that's a VERY tough question, and if I had that option, wow, I would think about it a lot before acting, because of the terrible, terrible dangers of offering freedom to people. Yet the opportunity for such beautiful. amazing things is also there. I guess the deciding point would have to be this: will the availability of good be enough to offset any bad? And this would have to be on an individual basis, not on an average of humanity, because I think each person is important. I don't think you could say, "Hey, 9 of 10 people will say they were happy with the balance of good and evil in their lives overall, but the 10th person was devastated and had no good, but hey, the average is quite high, so I'll go ahead and create!" I don't think any person is a throw-away, IOW.

I would also reserve to myself some level of being able to step in and stop something bad. IOW, being all-knowing, I would know that allowing sorrow "ABC" will ultimately work to good so I would allow it to happen, but allowing sorrow "XYZ" would not, so I would prevent that one from happening.

I don't know about the question of eternal beings or not; is it better to create humans eternal, or is it better to create them where they live and then die and they are permanently gone but there are memories of them? I haven't thought much on that, so I'll have to think about that one.

Anyway, some initial thoughts.
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby spongebob » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:36 pm

Rian wrote:
Marcuspnw wrote:First of all, why should you create anything? I am assuming you are a perfect God.

I'd like to hear why you put those two sentences together, marcuspnw. Do you see a relationship between the two? I'm guessing that you're saying what I've heard others say, that if you are perfect, that means you don't need or want anything, so there's no need to create anything; is that what you mean?


Not sure what marcuspnw is thinking about but I would say that a possible motive might be the desire to be creative, to just see what you could do. This is something we humans can relate to. Another might be mere loneliness.

I think with the onset of technology, the idea of a machine-type of thing being "perfect" has lead to a view of God that is more like he's the perfect machine. However, I just don't see that in the Bible. I see God as very relational; his very essence is a Trinity, in fact, so even before creating the universe (and I'm using a simplistic view of time) God is in relationship. And I think that just as people love to create, so does God; in fact, I think that's one way we are made in his image. So the way I see God, creating a universe is a natural thing to do, both relationally and creatively. Intriguing question!


So, we seem to have the same idea about creativity. But my question here is what meaning does the Trinity have without humanity? God as father, son and holy spirit in heaven, does that have any real meaning? The only purpose for the son is the salvation of man, so take that away and it seems superfluous. Same with the holy spirit because this only serves to guide humans.

However, as several people brought up, there is definitely a question of good/bad options. I think what expresses it really well for me is in Milton's Paradise Lost where there is a scene where God is in Heaven, kind of musing out loud about whether or not he should create people with free will. It's kind of a "I know this will be a glorious and wonderful thing, yet there will be terrible tragedy and sorrow which will hurt people and separate people from me; is it worth it, and who will step in and repair the breach?" Milton then portrays a silence, until Jesus speaks up and says, basically, "I will be the one; I will enter creation as a man, and I will take the responsibility of the creation upon myself."


Again, I fail to see the relevance or purpose of Jesus as a being that exists before the creation of man. Also, we have the paradoxical problem of god being omniscient but not somehow knowing what the result of his creation will be. Like humans who have children, we already know a lot about what our children will do, perhaps not every detail but we know they will do some great things and some not so great things. We choose to have children because we feel the love and pride of raising them will outweigh the downside, not because we expect something to step in and prevent any downside from happening. Also, from a human perspective, it is largely on us to cultivate a relationship with our children. Not so with god from a Christian perspective, it's all on the "children".

It's really beautiful poetry. and it expresses, for me, the answer to the statement that I've heard often - "If God made creation, then He should take responsibility for it!" He did take responsibility for it, in the person of Jesus.


But what do people mean by this? What does taking responsibility mean? Does it mean solving everyone's problems for them? Offering them convoluted advice and rules? Providing them with something solid might be a good start and I don't believe this has been accomplished.

And free will is SO important for anything meaningful, IMO - I think love is the greatest thing, and love, IMO, is meaningless without free will. So many things are meaningless without free will.

So to turn it more personal - I think that's a VERY tough question, and if I had that option, wow, I would think about it a lot before acting, because of the terrible, terrible dangers of offering freedom to people. Yet the opportunity for such beautiful. amazing things is also there. I guess the deciding point would have to be this: will the availability of good be enough to offset any bad? And this would have to be on an individual basis, not on an average of humanity, because I think each person is important. I don't think you could say, "Hey, 9 of 10 people will say they were happy with the balance of good and evil in their lives overall, but the 10th person was devastated and had no good, but hey, the average is quite high, so I'll go ahead and create!" I don't think any person is a throw-away, IOW.


I agree with your feelings on this, but I just don't think you can evaluate it on an individual basis any more than you can with your children. If you choose to have six children, you could be blessed with six great children who grow up to become successful, respected adults. But you could just as well have five great children and one drug addict who murders someone; you just never know and despite your best efforts you may not be able to prevent it. But upon review, would you ever reverse time and erase all six children just because of the one bad apple?

I would also reserve to myself some level of being able to step in and stop something bad. IOW, being all-knowing, I would know that allowing sorrow "ABC" will ultimately work to good so I would allow it to happen, but allowing sorrow "XYZ" would not, so I would prevent that one from happening.


But now you are subverting your desire for true free will.
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby searchengineguy » Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:42 am

Rian wrote:And free will is SO important for anything meaningful, IMO - I think love is the greatest thing, and love, IMO, is meaningless without free will. So many things are meaningless without free will.

But what if you discovered that free will is nothing but an illusion? That everyone is hardwired to perform exactly as they do? I quit being a policeman because I work up one morning and thought,

"There is no good nor evil, it's just man's thinking that makes it so." I was frozen by that thought and couldn't arrest anyone anymore because I realised that anything they did, they couldn't help doing.

Not really, only kidding, the pay and conditions were better in the Fire Brigade! :) Seriously, I've read a few articles and a couple of books on the illusion of free will and I'm convinced that we are just products of our gene pool and our environment. I don't believe in the concept of evil, goodness, angels, devils or demons either. People have all shades of traits and we all make mistakes.
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby Rian » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:13 pm

searchengineguy wrote:
Rian wrote:Hey SEG, here's the topic I was talking about. I like chatting with you, and after such a nice Thanksgiving (at the Grand Canyon!) I wanted to have at least one discussion free from nasty comments, so I'm putting it in here.

I don't know why it entered my mind, but I was just thinking again - if I were God, and I wanted to create a universe with beings in it that have a huge amount of free will (enough so that it's very meaningful), how would I do it? especially in terms of balancing free will with the ability of people to hurt others. Also would some type of "hell" be necessary, if "heaven" meant being with God and some people do not want this?

Anyway, just a thread to kind of float thoughts and ideas about how creating beings with free will could look. Any CL member is welcome to share their thoughts! :)

G'day Rian, I was wondering what you were proposing, thanks for letting me in on this. I like chatting with you too! Glad to hear you enjoyed the Grand Canyon. We will get a chance to see it in 2018 when we go to Las Vegas for the first time as part of the World Vets Table Tennis Championships.

Oh, wonderful!!! I wish I could travel to your neck of the woods, but I doubt if we'll ever be able to afford it. I'm so glad you'll get to see the GC! I think it's amazing (although I prefer Yosemite and Yellowstone and our other national parks that are more green).

I will probably be back in California by mid-2017; it looks like my husband's job search is heading that way. If not, we'll have to meet up and say hello!

If I were God, I wouldn't like to hurt anyone, even for a moment if I had the power. Hell would never be necessary. The concept is terribly unjust, as its an infinite punishment for finite crimes. Think of the worst possible criminal, and let's now make it personal. A mass murderer has become a dictator that has wiped out all of his people and has raped, tortured and murdered your mother. He gets convicted on your testimony and is sentenced to life imprisonment after you get to dish out an unlimited amount of punishment by electrical shocks to all parts of his body that are highly sensitive to pain. You can deliver unlimited amounts of shocks that won't kill him, but will cause severe pain. How long would you do it to him daily to vent your anger and deliver justice?

A week? A month? A year? 10 years? 50 years? I could probably do it to him for a couple of months before my revenge got slaked. How long would you keep going?

If you are like the God of the Bible, such a person and people just down to "sinning" non-believers would get torture without remiss for infinity. Is that fair or in any way just?


I don't think of Hell in that way, though. I think Hell is where God isn't, and if a person chooses to not be around God, that's Hell.

Regarding floating up to Heaven and being with God, I would imagine it would get very boring after a while being overwhelmed with bliss every single day for eternity. Sure, it would be fantastic meeting all your dead relatives again, including your great-great-great-great grandparents etc. , but then what? After you have read all the books, seen all the sights and experienced everything possible after a couple of hundred years, then what? Sit on the right side of God, pray to and adore him? How boring would that be? Could you imagine sitting in Church every day for a year listening to sermons, let alone eternity?
I don't think Heaven is like that. I think it's a place where we can become everything we've been created to be.

Sorry, but to me it seems very banal.

I agree that your idea of Heaven is! :D But I don't see your idea supported very much in the Bible.

I cherish living on this wonderful Earth with my family and friends, and I want to as long as possible. The end of life doesn't really bother me, as I've had a great life against enormous odds every since I was a tiny little Sammy Sperm.

Do you think it would be a better thing to live eternally? Why or why not? If you knew you were going to live eternally, what would make it a good thing for you, or do you think there is no way for an eternal life to be good? (if so, why?)
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

Christianity is the red pill - go for it! Seek the truth, wherever it leads you.
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Rian
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Re: How to create a universe in 7 days ...

Postby searchengineguy » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:53 am

Rian wrote:Oh, wonderful!!! I wish I could travel to your neck of the woods, but I doubt if we'll ever be able to afford it. I'm so glad you'll get to see the GC! I think it's amazing (although I prefer Yosemite and Yellowstone and our other national parks that are more green).

I will probably be back in California by mid-2017; it looks like my husband's job search is heading that way. If not, we'll have to meet up and say hello!

Sounds good Rian. I'd like to meet you folks in person, as you sound much like us.

Rian wrote:I don't think of Hell in that way, though. I think Hell is where God isn't, and if a person chooses to not be around God, that's Hell.

Ok, but where do you think Hell is today? It used to be "down there" but science has explained what is in our mantel and below. No evidence of Hell down below.

I agree that your idea of Heaven is! :D But I don't see your idea supported very much in the Bible.

okdoke, What do you think happens? Whatever that is, I will be looking for what you are thinking is supported in the Bible.

Do you think it would be a better thing to live eternally? Why or why not? If you knew you were going to live eternally, what would make it a good thing for you, or do you think there is no way for an eternal life to be good? (if so, why?)


Very good questions Rian, but I don't know if I am qualified to answer them. I would love to see what happens in the next 20, 50, 100, 1,000 years and beyond. That would be amazing and at 100 years would beyond what I think I could be capable of thinking about, let alone 1,000. Beyond 1,000 and up to 10,000 years I don't think that I would be able to communicate with whatever has developed.

I would be very surprised if humans had advanced beyond another 1,000 years, unless they have migrated to other solar systems. God and Heaven IMO have a very limited life and I think that the concepts will die out in the next 50 years.
Frisbeetarianism: is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck.
- George Carlin.
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