Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby Chapabel » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:20 pm

Simplyme wrote:
Am I a joke, or am I your friend? I'm not sure you're being totally honest with that statement


Why can't you be both? You could hold stupid silly beliefs and still be my friend. Why would you think otherwise? I'm not like your god who's law is, "Believe and love me or perish"! I'm better then that.

Do you honestly consider me your friend? The way you have cursed at me, called me names and mocked my beliefs do not really make me think you are my friend. Sorry, but I just ain't feeling it.
To be right with God has often meant to be in trouble with men. -- A.W. Tozer
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby Simplyme » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:38 pm

Do you honestly consider me your friend? The way you have cursed at me, called me names and mocked my beliefs do not really make me think you are my friend. Sorry, but I just ain't feeling it.


Cursed "at you"? Man you guys are sensitive. You do not see that saying we deserve hell as the bigger curse? I mock anyone's silly beliefs. I mock all my family members beliefs who are pastors. So don't take it personal, it's not you, it's your belief. And since all of your lives depend on this belief, you all get offended easily.

John 15: 18-19 If the world mocks you, ye know that it mocked me before it mocked you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world mocks you


I mock God, Jesus, and even Casper. So you are in good company.

You are not feeling it because you have locked yourself from feeling it. Have faith that it is there and "BAM" it's there. It's seems you do not believe you can be friends with those you disagree with.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby searchengineguy » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:59 pm

Chapabel wrote:Numerous times I have asked you to produce evidence of your claim and all you offer is the bias opinion of nonbelievers.

Fine, there are numerous believing scholars who are aware of interpolations and Bible fiddling. Even Moon who is a believer is well aware of the science of textual criticism and how it has been used as evidence against "the unalterable word of God". He will tell you that there have been several interpolations, deletions and folklore. I betcha he can rattle off a few books with loads of evidence that I know that you'll never read. Here's one from me from by Thomas L. Thompson, a believing Christian theologian whom is also a professor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_in_History:_How_Writers_Create_a_Past

The Bible in History: How Writers Create a Past
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Bible in History: How Writers Create a Past, (Pimlico, 1999), is a book by Thomas L. Thompson, Professor of Old Testament at the University of Copenhagen. Its US title is The Mythic Past: Biblical Archaeology and the Myth of Israel.

Summary
The theme of The Bible in History is the need to treat the bible as literature rather than as history. Danny Yee cites a passage: "The Bible's language is not an historical language. It is a language of high literature, of story, of sermon and of song. It is a tool of philosophy and moral instruction."[1]

Part 1 deals with general historiographical issues, including the importance of understanding the types and purposes of different biblical stories, the dangers of treating myth and poetry as history, and the use of origin-myths as recurring motifs, concluding that the bible was intended to provide an ancient people with a common past, and thus was very different from our own tradition of critical history-writing. Part 2 is a history of ancient Palestine and the surrounding region from the earliest human settlement to the Hellenistic period drawing on the most recent archaeological and historical studies, and Part 3 concludes with a survey of the theological implications of the preceding study.[2]

The minimalist/maximalist debate[edit]
Thompson is a leading biblical minimalist, a group of like-minded scholars including Niels Peter Lemche, Philip R. Davies, and Keith W. Whitelam among others who say that the Hebrew bible cannot be treated as history, because it was not intended as history. The minimalist argument has been received with emotions bordering on outrage by other scholars, somewhat inaccurately known as "maximalists" – most of them do not in fact subscribe to a view that would take all or even most of the bible as being historically accurate, but object strongly to the minimalist contention that it is completely or almost completely ahistorical. The debate has been frequently framed in political terms, with the minimalists accused of subverting the existence of the modern state of Israel and worse. "The Bible in History", Thompson's attempt to summarise the minimalist thesis and set it before a wider public, was the immediate cause for William G. Dever's rejoinder, What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?, (2001), which then led into a long and frequently heated debate (in which Davies, rather than Thompson, championed the minimalist side) on the merits of the bible as history.[3]

If you are asking me personally to produce evidence beyond books written by experts, I can't, as I am not an expert. Neither are you, but let's turn this around; Show me a book written by an atheist that has evidence of non-fiddling. I'm hold my belly in advance.
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby cleve » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:04 pm

Simplyme wrote:
I mock God, Jesus, and even Casper. So you are in good company.


So do you mock yourself? :)
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby cleve » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:49 pm

Chapabel wrote:Numerous times I have asked you to produce evidence of your claim and all you offer is the bias opinion of nonbelievers.

searchengineguy wrote:Fine, there are numerous believing scholars who are aware of interpolations and Bible fiddling. Even Moon who is a believer is well aware of the science of textual criticism and how it has been used as evidence against "the unalterable word of God".

How would you go about producing evidence to your claim that Bible translations are "the unalterable word of God"? :)
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby Simplyme » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:38 pm

cleve wrote:
Simplyme wrote:
I mock God, Jesus, and even Casper. So you are in good company.


So do you mock yourself? :)


On occasions, yes even me.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby searchengineguy » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:32 am

cleve wrote:
Chapabel wrote:Numerous times I have asked you to produce evidence of your claim and all you offer is the bias opinion of nonbelievers.

searchengineguy wrote:Fine, there are numerous believing scholars who are aware of interpolations and Bible fiddling. Even Moon who is a believer is well aware of the science of textual criticism and how it has been used as evidence against "the unalterable word of God".

How would you go about producing evidence to your claim that Bible translations are "the unalterable word of God"? :)

I don't and that's not my claim.
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby Chapabel » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:55 am

Simplyme wrote:
Do you honestly consider me your friend? The way you have cursed at me, called me names and mocked my beliefs do not really make me think you are my friend. Sorry, but I just ain't feeling it.


Cursed "at you"? Man you guys are sensitive. You do not see that saying we deserve hell as the bigger curse? I mock anyone's silly beliefs. I mock all my family members beliefs who are pastors. So don't take it personal, it's not you, it's your belief. And since all of your lives depend on this belief, you all get offended easily.

John 15: 18-19 If the world mocks you, ye know that it mocked me before it mocked you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world mocks you


I mock God, Jesus, and even Casper. So you are in good company.

You are not feeling it because you have locked yourself from feeling it. Have faith that it is there and "BAM" it's there. It's seems you do not believe you can be friends with those you disagree with.

You didn't answer my question...Do you honestly consider me your friend?

And BTW, I'm not sensitive. I spent 12 years in the military. I've been called everything under the sun. I've used language that would make you blush. I simply choose not to use language like that anymore because it makes the user appear boorish and ignorant.
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby Chapabel » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:18 am

searchengineguy wrote:
Chapabel wrote:Numerous times I have asked you to produce evidence of your claim and all you offer is the bias opinion of nonbelievers.

Fine, there are numerous believing scholars who are aware of interpolations and Bible fiddling. Even Moon who is a believer is well aware of the science of textual criticism and how it has been used as evidence against "the unalterable word of God". He will tell you that there have been several interpolations, deletions and folklore. I betcha he can rattle off a few books with loads of evidence that I know that you'll never read. Here's one from me from by Thomas L. Thompson, a believing Christian theologian whom is also a professor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_in_History:_How_Writers_Create_a_Past


Did you actually read this piece? Not one word about the accuracy of the Bible. It is a discussion on whether the Bible should be used as a history book or not. While I disagree with Thompson's position that the Bible and archaeology do not agree (a position most Biblical scholars disagree with) I actually agree that it should not be used as a history book because it was not intended for that purpose. However, that does not mean it does not contain historically accurate information. I want you to produce evidence that the Bible is WRONG as you claim it is.

Also note that your assessment that Thompson is a believing Christian may not be accurate. In his bio it says he was raised Catholic. Being raised Catholic or Baptist or Methodist or any other denomination does not mean the person is actually a believing Christian. Thompson's dissertation, which challenged the historical Abraham, was rejected because it was not "fitting for a Catholic theologian." The Catholics, his own denomination, rejected his view of the Bible.

There are probably many members here who were raised in a Christian denomination who are not now believers. Even Bart Erhman who is currently the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill is not a believing Christian.
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby searchengineguy » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:32 am

Chapabel wrote:Did you actually read this piece? Not one word about the accuracy of the Bible. It is a discussion on whether the Bible should be used as a history book or not.

Did you read the first part of my post?
In that book it reveals that the bible stories are not meant to tell history and are stories written as allegories. They are also written by humans that make mistakes.
While I disagree with Thompson's position that the Bible and archaeology do not agree (a position most Biblical scholars disagree with) I actually agree that it should not be used as a history book because it was not intended for that purpose. However, that does not mean it does not contain historically accurate information. I want you to produce evidence that the Bible is WRONG as you claim it is.

It's historically wrong, literally wrong, morally wrong and logically wrong. Which wrong do you need proof of? As I said previously even Moon and other Christians here acknowledge that the Bible is not perfect, and for some strange reason you don't want to accept this
Also note that your assessment that Thompson is a believing Christian may not be accurate. In his bio it says he was raised Catholic. Being raised Catholic or Baptist or Methodist or any other denomination does not mean the person is actually a believing Christian. Thompson's dissertation, which challenged the historical Abraham, was rejected because it was not "fitting for a Catholic theologian." The Catholics, his own denomination, rejected his view of the Bible.

Could you possible think of any good reasons why they would do that? I can, most likely being he was challenging their belief system using logic that they can't accept as being correct because of...well, you know...it's just not right.

Oh yes, he is a god fearing Christian. He just doesn't think anyone has produced a solid case for it's historicity including that of Jesus. I think he is right on the money.
There are probably many members here who were raised in a Christian denomination who are not now believers. Even Bart Erhman who is currently the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill is not a believing Christian.

Can you blame them? There are lots of reasons for doubt once you remove those Christian blinkers.
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby Chapabel » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:56 am

searchengineguy wrote:
It's historically wrong, literally wrong, morally wrong and logically wrong. Which wrong do you need proof of? As I said previously even Moon and other Christians here acknowledge that the Bible is not perfect, and for some strange reason you don't want to accept this

Because neither you nor anyone else has proven it wrong. I am asking you for evidence that it is wrong. The only thing you offer to prove it is wrong is the opinions of other men. Do you know what evidence is? For instance, the Bible says Noah built an ark. Show me empirical evidence that he didn't. The Bible says Jesus Christ arose from the dead after being buried for three days...show me the proof that He didn't. Show me the irrefutable proof that Abraham did not live just as depicted in the book of Genesis. I reject mere opinions of men, even from Moonwood and other Christians. Give me tangible proof.
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby cleve » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:18 am

searchengineguy wrote:
cleve wrote:
Chapabel wrote:Numerous times I have asked you to produce evidence of your claim and all you offer is the bias opinion of nonbelievers.

searchengineguy wrote:Fine, there are numerous believing scholars who are aware of interpolations and Bible fiddling. Even Moon who is a believer is well aware of the science of textual criticism and how it has been used as evidence against "the unalterable word of God".

How would you go about producing evidence to your claim that Bible translations are "the unalterable word of God"? :)

I don't and that's not my claim.

OK. But God said nothing about "the unalterable word of God," His original Word (which could include human translations - the works of humans) being identical with what we commonly call the Bible.
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby wim » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:32 pm

Chapabel wrote:
searchengineguy wrote:
It's historically wrong, literally wrong, morally wrong and logically wrong. Which wrong do you need proof of? As I said previously even Moon and other Christians here acknowledge that the Bible is not perfect, and for some strange reason you don't want to accept this

Because neither you nor anyone else has proven it wrong. I am asking you for evidence that it is wrong. The only thing you offer to prove it is wrong is the opinions of other men. Do you know what evidence is? For instance, the Bible says Noah built an ark. Show me empirical evidence that he didn't. The Bible says Jesus Christ arose from the dead after being buried for three days...show me the proof that He didn't. Show me the irrefutable proof that Abraham did not live just as depicted in the book of Genesis. I reject mere opinions of men, even from Moonwood and other Christians. Give me tangible proof.


That is a completely dumb argument.
I say that a large orange unicorn lives in Andromeda - show me the proof that it doesn't.
I say that little green fairies live beneath the earth's surface - show me the proof that they don't.
I say that one of my ancestors was God himself - show me the proof that he wasn't.

One can claim anything and then say: 'show me the proof that my claim is false'.

It is up to the person that makes the claim to prove that his claim is, without any doubt and with rational and scientific arguments, true.
If he can't, then we're talking about suggestions, allegories, stories, false claims, fairy tales, whatever.
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby Chapabel » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:19 pm

wim wrote:
Chapabel wrote:
searchengineguy wrote:
It's historically wrong, literally wrong, morally wrong and logically wrong. Which wrong do you need proof of? As I said previously even Moon and other Christians here acknowledge that the Bible is not perfect, and for some strange reason you don't want to accept this

Because neither you nor anyone else has proven it wrong. I am asking you for evidence that it is wrong. The only thing you offer to prove it is wrong is the opinions of other men. Do you know what evidence is? For instance, the Bible says Noah built an ark. Show me empirical evidence that he didn't. The Bible says Jesus Christ arose from the dead after being buried for three days...show me the proof that He didn't. Show me the irrefutable proof that Abraham did not live just as depicted in the book of Genesis. I reject mere opinions of men, even from Moonwood and other Christians. Give me tangible proof.


That is a completely dumb argument.
I say that a large orange unicorn lives in Andromeda - show me the proof that it doesn't.
I say that little green fairies live beneath the earth's surface - show me the proof that they don't.
I say that one of my ancestors was God himself - show me the proof that he wasn't.

One can claim anything and then say: 'show me the proof that my claim is false'.

It is up to the person that makes the claim to prove that his claim is, without any doubt and with rational and scientific arguments, true.
If he can't, then we're talking about suggestions, allegories, stories, false claims, fairy tales, whatever.

No it's not a dumb argument. SEG began this thread claiming the Bible was not trustworthy so I asked him to prove it is wrong. He was the one making the claim not me. Therefore he is the one required to substantiate his claim. You have jumped into the middle of a discussion you are unfamiliar with.
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Re: Why Doesn't Christianity Tell The Truth?

Postby Keep The Reason » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:35 pm

wim wrote:That is a completely dumb argument.
I say that a large orange unicorn lives in Andromeda - show me the proof that it doesn't.
I say that little green fairies live beneath the earth's surface - show me the proof that they don't.
I say that one of my ancestors was God himself - show me the proof that he wasn't.

One can claim anything and then say: 'show me the proof that my claim is false'.

It is up to the person that makes the claim to prove that his claim is, without any doubt and with rational and scientific arguments, true.
If he can't, then we're talking about suggestions, allegories, stories, false claims, fairy tales, whatever.


You'll wind up banging your head against a brick wall of basic numbnuttery on this one, wim.

These guys have no clue as to burden of proof criteria. On the other hand, you might make a fortune selling the pretzels they turn themselves into while trying to shift that burden onto those who reject their empty god claims.
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
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