Atheism in Decline

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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:00 am

Simplyme wrote:
WTF?

Aaron is the one that used the words "and counter intuitive". I was just shoving it back where it came from. Argue his point not mines.

I was pointing out, once again, that science and religion are not in the same field. You would not find Dr. Seuss under Science in a library.

Sorry, I mistook your random prejudice for an argument.
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby Simplyme » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:06 pm

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Simplyme wrote:
WTF?

Aaron is the one that used the words "and counter intuitive". I was just shoving it back where it came from. Argue his point not mines.

I was pointing out, once again, that science and religion are not in the same field. You would not find Dr. Seuss under Science in a library.

Sorry, I mistook your random prejudice for an argument.


You are finally correct...I am prejudice against stupidity. And sadly enough, it is found quite frequently in religion.
I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:36 pm

Simplyme wrote:You are finally correct...I am prejudice against stupidity. And sadly enough, it is found quite frequently in religion.

Whereas I do not think you are stupid . I think you often understand far more than you let on.
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby captain howdy » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:33 pm

Image



Image



You sneaky Christian bastards!!! You're brainwashing our kids to believe in the trinity!!!!!
I must be getting paranoid. Everyone else sees Juggalos. I see Trump Youth
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby captain howdy » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:17 pm

By God, when I kill a thread it STAYS killed!
I must be getting paranoid. Everyone else sees Juggalos. I see Trump Youth
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby searchengineguy » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:14 pm

captain howdy wrote:Image



Image



You sneaky Christian bastards!!! You're brainwashing our kids to believe in the trinity!!!!!

Hahahar! That was Gold, Captain! I just realised that both spin faster the harder they are pushed.
Frisbeetarianism: is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck.
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby captain howdy » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:42 pm

searchengineguy wrote:
captain howdy wrote:Image



Image



You sneaky Christian bastards!!! You're brainwashing our kids to believe in the trinity!!!!!

Hahahar! That was Gold, Captain! I just realised that both spin faster the harder they are pushed.




I never know when one of my jokes is going to take off or when it's going to land with a resounding thud like this one did. Do you guys see those things down where you are? Here they're called fidget spinners and you can buy them in any convenience store, usually right next to the checkout counter. They're a fad and you probably won't even remember they existed two years from now.

What I probably ought to do is buy a couple boxes of those fucking things for a couple bucks per toy, label the center circle "god" and the three outer circles "father" "son" and "holy ghost" then set up a booth in front of some megachurch and sell 'em for $20 each and go home rich!

edit to add: I even figured out a sales pitch! Hold one up and say---

The Holy Trinity! Is it One God? Is it Three Gods? Let's see
---and start spinning it.
Last edited by captain howdy on Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby Simplyme » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:55 pm

I find it rather amusing, when thought of as ignorant or stupid(though I can be on many subjects). Especially by those who believe in a deity up in heaven watching our every move, and rewarding or punishing us after we have expired.
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby captain howdy » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:40 pm

Simplyme wrote:You were just beat to the punch.



I wha....??





You bastards!!! You sneaky christian bastards!!!





edit: hold one up in front of some poor kid and chant softly believe....believe....believe....
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby Rian » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 am

marcuspnw wrote:
captain howdy wrote:Explain to me why the rationale used to support the trinitarian idea isn't anything more than an exercise in pure special pleading, completely unsupported by any objective evidence at all other than scriptural. No Moon, the question isn't "Is the idea of the trinity in any way reasonable or coherent?" The answer is obvious and can be plainly seen in any artistic depiction of the father son and holy ghost that make up the christian holy trinity. The question is: Why on earth do people buy into something like this? Christianity is polytheistic, why not just own up to it?


It's an attempt to rationalize the knowledge received by several revelations in Christian scripture concerning their beliefs about God and as you point out, some of them seem to contradict each other. Consubstantialism is
an attempt at synthesizing the two ideas of (hypostases) three persons and (homoousios) one nature. Now why would this be irrational per se? Because we don't exist in this way? Why can't a god exists in forms or expressions that are beyond the scope of human abilities? Traditionally, He's also eternal and separate from the universe He created. That must cause you much angst as well.

BTW, good post!
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby Rian » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:25 am

captain howdy wrote:
Rian wrote:
captain howdy wrote:I'm afraid there's no escape, Mister Bond.

You know what usually happens after THAT line, right? :D


A commercial?
:D
"Aurë entuluva! Auta i lómë!" ("Day shall come again! The night is passing!") -- from JRR Tolkien's The Silmarillion

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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby Rian » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:29 am

marcuspnw wrote:Well, first of all I think this is a case of you not seeing the forest for the trees. When you observe a beehive, do you not see it as a living thing? It is just a collection of individuals to you? You've heard the phrase " e pluribus unum". The United States is one nation made up of 50 states. As you well know from these examples, the concept of an entity being both one and many is not irrational. And theologians have explained the belief in the Trinity although it did take some time to figure it out. Since our language keeps changing, it seems reasonable to me that they should continue to address this. You are ignoring all of this and you are making an argument. You have stated that one divine person equals one separate god so Christians are polytheists. The foundation for your claim is that is how you count. Good luck with that.

Now I would like to address the artwork:

To appreciate art, we must use our knowledge, our imagination and our empathy. Viewing the painting you have exhibited, I make the following assessment. The artist has created one painting of the Christian God. Within the one painting of God, he depicts three Persons indwelling the space of the frame, coexisting, co-eternal (the 3 are presented as always existing) with majesty in unity of purpose and perfect harmony as they together lovingly oversee the world. This is not meant as an artistic depiction of polytheism. For that, I invite you to examine James Barry's Jupiter and Juno on Mount Ida. Or if you want to see an artist wrestling with the influences of Christian and Neoplatonism , try Botticelli's Primavera or The Birth of Venus. Enjoy art and be kind to the artists that create it for us.

Another good post!
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby Rian » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:52 am

captain howdy wrote:
Rian wrote:
captain howdy wrote:For the church to deny that it is polytheistic really does require you to ignore the evidence of your own eyes. That is to say, it may really be just one god but it sure looks like three gods. Just look at any painting of the trinity and count the divine beings therein. Like I told Moon, you don't even need to make an argument.

I don't know why you're using a painting to support your argument :?: :?: I mean, using that same reasoning, I could say that people are two-dimensional and point to any painting, plus any photograph, to prove it.


But you would be wrong to do so. In fact, all you would prove by doing that isn't that people themselves are two-dimensional but only your depiction of them is. Do you believe that the painting I posted misrepresents the number of beings christians recognize as divine? Because if it doesn't then I think my larger point stands: You can call the beings depicted "one god" all you want to, but you can visibly see there are three, not one, deities in the painting. And as I said to Marcus, the question isn't "how many natures or essences does the christian god possess?" but rather "How many beings do christians recognize as divine?" and the simple fact is that you guys recognize three of them, and you even have separate names for each of them.


My husband and I were gone all week at a executive conference, but I had plenty of time to muse over this topic, and my biggest question is: are you really serious? I really can't tell if you're pulling our legs or not. I ask that sincerely; I really can't tell. This whole kerfuffle over artwork just seems like you're not even serious. The art came from the theology, not the other way around. The picture you posted takes the trouble to draw a circle around the 3 persons of the Trinity, expressing the theology that although there are three persons, it is one God. The theology is plain, the artwork is art, and this particular piece is depicting the three persons within the one God enclosed by the circle showing their oneness. It seems very plain and straightforward to me.

Rian wrote:Also, you're randomly grabbing an artistic expression of a certain aspect of the Christian faith out of the middle of the timeline and disregarding Church doctrine and history. The formal Christian faith didn't arise out of the apostles seeing paintings; it arose out of Jesus' life on earth, lived among people, and those people writing down what they saw. Then as time went on, artists that were Christians naturally expressed their faith through their artistic gifts.
Capt H wrote:
But none of that changes the number of deities you recognize. That's the whole point; everything else is window dressing.

One deity in three persons. Marcus made some excellent posts about this concept.

Capt H wrote:
Rian wrote:
captain howdy wrote:But all this, my discussion with Moon, everything just underscores how strange christianity is as a worldview. I don't see the appeal, I really don't.

It's certainly odd in places, but I find, as I live it out, that some of its strange aspects, while counter-intuitive, actually work out very well in quite unexpected ways. Kind of like how math (my minor at college; my major was computers) can be counter-intuitive in places but if you go with it, it works.


I can appreciate how math works. I can pick up a pencil and paper and use math as a tool to answer specific questions that can be quantified or expressed numerically. It's hard to visualize doing anything analogous with christianity.

Do you think it's reasonable to think that a being that created the entire universe might have some parts at least a little outside of our comprehension? But Jesus gives us a good look at the parts that we can comprehend - Emmanuel, "God with us" - God walking among us in the person of Jesus. We get a better look at him that way.

Rian wrote:The appeal to me is love, and its deep beauty and strength and wildness, in a way, among many other things. But love is the key (a strong love, not a fluffy love). As it says in I Corinthians 13, you can do all sorts of impressive things, but without love, they're nothing.
Capt H wrote:
But you don't need to do this kind of metaphysical yoga to experience love. Besides, is it really love if it's coerced? After all, what does this god do to those who reject his "love"?

I think we need God to experience the best and highest love, and the love we experience on earth has its source in Him and draws us to Him.

And I agree that it's not love if it's coerced!!! But I don't think it's the way you see it. I think it's more like God knows that we can't live without him, and Hell is just the place that people choose to go to if they keep rejecting God's love. Hell is a place that God allows for those that don't want Him; Hell is where God isn't. We need God to truly live a fully liberated and awesomely amazing life - we need Him for life itself - yet God gives us the choice.

And it's not like God's needy ("I want them to need me!") - it's just that God made the universe and it runs on him - it's just a simple fact of existence that we need Him.

captain howdy wrote:Only christians could use "wild and crazy" and "croquet" in the same sentence! :wink:
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby Keep The Reason » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:01 pm

I don't know why you're using a painting to support your argument :?: :?: I mean, using that same reasoning, I could say that people are two-dimensional and point to any painting, plus any photograph, to prove it.


The fatal flaw in this rebuttal is that all you have to do to disprove the idea that people are two-dimensional is point to the person making the claim and that demonstrates the claim that "doesn't the picture prove people are really just two dimensional" is WRONG.

Theists ALWAYS forget that their god claims are a completely different animal, by THEIR own device. YOU make these gods undemonstrable and then everyone tries to apply real-world examples that are FOREVER no longer applicable to the silo of "gods".

So yeah, captain howdy is 100% correct here. The picture CLEARLY depicts the claim that there are THREE DISTINCT GODS who are considered one god. This is CLEARLY a polytheistic religion that finds itself, once again, trapped by ancient simplistic thinking that cannot be resolved because the people who thought it up were vastly less sophisticated about the nature of reality. In their day, "3 =1" was simply not much questioned (and when it was, wars and murder broke out, which is also a symptom of a lack of critical thinking).

The trick here is really simple.--it's Occam Razorian in its simplicity: "Hmm. I believe they didn't really know what they were talking about. Let's toss it away because it's nonsense."

But because you can't just do that with these attempts to twist superstitions into facts, you're forced to accept the convolutions they obviously proffer. You're trapped, because you either swallow the nonsense with a smile, or you reject it. So you're stuck with the nonsense claim that 3 distinct individuals, depicted visually for your conveneince are really just ONE individual even though that contradicts the facts the claim tries to peddle as factual.

You want to rebut that claim? Simply produce the gods and show us how it is wrong. And while you're doing that, remember how your actual existence proved your facetious claim of 2 dimensionality wrong as well.
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Re: Atheism in Decline

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:11 am

marcuspw wrote:Well, first of all I think this is a case of you not seeing the forest for the trees. When you observe a beehive, do you not see it as a living thing? It is just a collection of individuals to you? You've heard the phrase " e pluribus unum". The United States is one nation made up of 50 states. As you well know from these examples, the concept of an entity being both one and many is not irrational. And theologians have explained the belief in the Trinity although it did take some time to figure it out. Since our language keeps changing, it seems reasonable to me that they should continue to address this. You are ignoring all of this and you are making an argument. You have stated that one divine person equals one separate god so Christians are polytheists. The foundation for your claim is that is how you count. Good luck with that.


And I disagree with this assessment as well. It ignores the fact that you're describing two specifically different things: Bees and states as individual entities, which they are, and the incorporation they belong to (a hive or a nation). It's a failed example because we all know there are two distinct labels being applied. There are the bees, and the states, and then there is the unity they belong to as members. "E pluribus unum" is not saying, "Out of many individual Beings we magically become one single Being" which is what the trinity claim is, it's "we all agree to believe in a community made up of distinctly different people".

Like it or not, a nation or a beehive is, in actual fact, a collective of individuals. They may work in harmony (in fact in order to be successful they have to) but no one is going to claim a nation or a beehive is one single mass entity and not comprised of many individuals.

The Trinity is not "There's the father, the son and the spook, and they belong to a group called 'god'", it's "There's the father, the son and the spook and they are both separate and the same at the same time in the same way." It's completely different, and yeah, it's contradictory and hence irrational.

Again-- when you try to create analogies for imaginary things and apply the same logic to them you apply to real demonstrable and rational things, spiritual nonsense breaks the attempt. If the trinity was nothing more than, "These three gods joined the nation of Yahweh" you'd have a point but captain howdy would still be right: 3 INDIVIDUAL GODS = polytheism. Just like a beehive isn't one single thing but a queen, drones, workers, and larvae-- all distinctly different things, or the USA isn't just one thing but a conglomerate of POLY-STATES (multiple states) with a vast number of distinct individuals.
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