Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

[Salwinder]

Forget it Penguin - Carico is unwilling to offer any analysis or reflection, and therefore unwilling to meaningfully contribute to what is so great about this forum - engaging in reflective discussion. No doubt he/she is here purely in an attempt to convert us atheists by shouting scripture at us. I think responding further is just a waste of everyone's time.

[mikedsjr]

Sorry but Jesus tells us to watch our for wolves in sheep's clothing so we can know who our enemy is and who are friends are. "By their fruits you will recognize them."

The bible also tells us to rightly divide the word of truth? It isn't talking about atheists when it says wolves. "Wolves" is talking about false prophets who infiltrate the church...ie name-it-and-claim-it crowd....Joel Olsteen....the list goes on.

Don't use scripture for your own gain.

[Carico]

Sorry but Jesus tells us to watch our for wolves in sheep's clothing so we can know who our enemy is and who are friends are. "By their fruits you will recognize them."

The bible also tells us to rightly divide the word of truth? It isn't talking about atheists when it says wolves. "Wolves" is talking about false prophets who infiltrate the church...ie name-it-and-claim-it crowd....Joel Olsteen....the list goes on.

Don't use scripture for your own gain.

You quoted the wrong quote. I quoted both what Jesus says about wolves in sheep's clothing and anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 2:22 "Who is the liar? It's the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ." I can see why you ignored that one. But it's still in the bible and thus can never go away. Sorry.

[StillSearching]

Cal,

Would you agree that someone could accept Christ in their heart, and still disagree with another Christian about His teaching? You seem to be confusing the two.

[Aaron]

I think Christian love should be more about and and less about

But Scott what if there really is a hell and people who do not receive righteousness from God actually end up there. I have such a problem with this. On the one hand I wish to be respectful of others peoples beliefs, but then at the same time how evil would I be if I did not do everything in my power to be as effective as possible to get them to understand... I know why you want to make every one be friends but isn't there a balance that must be reached; that is to be most effective?

[Aaron]

Aaron, are you sure you're understanding what I am saying?

It would make you smile if you, or what you believe was making someone feel negative feelings? You try to tell me in one post you're "really a nice guy" then in another you tell me that you would smile if you made someone feel like shit?

Ehh apparently I was misunderstanding. I don't want to make anyone feel like shit. I don't know how it came to that. I meant I would smile at how I had been misread. The guy thinks I'm a horrible Christain, I guess I thought I would smile becuase thats not how I see it. Now I don't even remember what I was arguing about in the first place and there has been so many posts I can't go back and read mine in the topic review thingy...

Oh well. I think it was whether or not I would care if someone was dreading meeting me. Of course I would care, but really there is nothing I could ever do about it. So why worry, they will hopefully come to see who I truly am. Thats what is important, at least to me. Sure its not good that they have to worry so much before meeting me, but like I said I don't have any control over that (I suppose if someone on here we to meet me and they were worrying then that would be my fault, becuase I am kind of argumentative, but I think I am being respectful. I suppose its just the nature of the forum). But I'm not even sure if I'm even on track with what we were talking about?

[NH Baritone]

I think Christian love should be more about and and less about

But Scott what if there really is a hell and people who do not receive righteousness from God actually end up there. I have such a problem with this. On the one hand I wish to be respectful of others peoples beliefs, but then at the same time how evil would I be if I did not do everything in my power to be as effective as possible to get them to understand... I know why you want to make every one be friends but isn't there a balance that must be reached; that is to be most effective?

This, in all of its "aw, shucks" naïveté, illustrates the harm that results from Christian teaching about hell.

Aaron is genuinely worried about a boogie man coming to cart others off to the Pit of Despair. We have more than enough reality to attend to--reality that both Christians and nonbelievers can acknowledge exists and that we can influence--but he's tied in knots over nightmares that spring from the first century's equivalent of a Tim Burton movie.

So Scott, what can you say to keep your frightened flocks from turning Christianity into a remake Fright Night? And while you're at it, perhaps you can suggest an alternate, more beneficial way to expend all that mental energy.

[tirtlegrrl]

Aaron, isn't the idea that you have the power to save others from hell through your own efforts just as flawed as the idea that you can reach perfection through performing certain ritual behaviors (otherwise known as "working your way to heaven")?

Just think; some coworker of yours might be run over by a bus tomorrow and go to Hell instead of Heaven, merely because you stayed at your computer during a coffee break today instead of warning them about the sure doom awaiting unbelievers! How do you sleep at night?
The fact is, most Christians live pretty normal lives instead of running around like maniacs with "judgement is near" signs, bugging all of their acquaintances. I would bet that most of them believe that where a person goes after death is between them and God, and that God cannot justly make believers responsible for the choices of others. (I'm merely stating the norm, not what is necessarily "Biblical".) If they don't believe that, then there are a whole lot of Christians out there who are unmoved by the idea of the uncleansed burning in Hell; they (these imaginary Christians) just couldn't be bothered to go witness today so too bad!

[mikedsjr]

Aaron, isn't the idea that you have the power to save others from hell through your own efforts just as flawed as the idea that you can reach perfection through performing certain ritual behaviors (otherwise known as "working your way to heaven")? !

You are correct on both accounts.

[Aaron]

Aaron, isn't the idea that you have the power to save others from hell through your own efforts just as flawed as the idea that you can reach perfection through performing certain ritual behaviors (otherwise known as "working your way to heaven")?

Yep!

However, God has not told me whom he is going to save. He has not told me who he wants me to talk too. He told me to go spread the word and live it out. So thats what I think we as Christians should do. I believe God uses people to accomplish his will. I want to make sure I am giving my life to Him as much as possible each day. I want to be used by him and I believe that includes being willing to speak the truth even when its not something we want to believe or say to someone (ie people who don't trust in God are going to go to Hell). That's what I was getting at...

[whoosanightowl]

Aaron, isn't the idea that you have the power to save others from hell through your own efforts just as flawed as the idea that you can reach perfection through performing certain ritual behaviors (otherwise known as "working your way to heaven")?

Yep!

However, God has not told me whom he is going to save. He has not told me who he wants me to talk too. He told me to go spread the word and live it out. So thats what I think we as Christians should do. I believe God uses people to accomplish his will. I want to make sure I am giving my life to Him as much as possible each day. I want to be used by him and I believe that includes being willing to speak the truth even when its not something we want to believe or say to someone (ie people who don't trust in God are going to go to Hell). That's what I was getting at...

Isn't it sorta arrogant to think you speak "the truth" and those who don't believe what you do, don't? How can you be so sure it's not them who has the truth and you are the one being deceived? Would you be just as willing to listen to their claims and to grant them the possibility of being right? Or would you just refuse from the get go to admit that you might be wrong?
Just wondering...
Sue

[Carico]

Aaron, isn't the idea that you have the power to save others from hell through your own efforts just as flawed as the idea that you can reach perfection through performing certain ritual behaviors (otherwise known as "working your way to heaven")?

Yep!

However, God has not told me whom he is going to save. He has not told me who he wants me to talk too. He told me to go spread the word and live it out. So thats what I think we as Christians should do. I believe God uses people to accomplish his will. I want to make sure I am giving my life to Him as much as possible each day. I want to be used by him and I believe that includes being willing to speak the truth even when its not something we want to believe or say to someone (ie people who don't trust in God are going to go to Hell). That's what I was getting at...

Isn't it sorta arrogant to think you speak "the truth" and those who don't believe what you do, don't? How can you be so sure it's not them who has the truth and you are the one being deceived? Would you be just as willing to listen to their claims and to grant them the possibility of being right? Or would you just refuse from the get go to admit that you might be wrong?
Just wondering...
Sue

So do you believe your opinions are true? Or are you spreading opinions you think are false? if so, then you need to stop passing along false statements and listen to others so you can adopt opinions that you think are true.

[whoosanightowl]

Sue wrote:

Isn't it sorta arrogant to think you speak "the truth" and those who don't believe what you do, don't? How can you be so sure it's not them who has the truth and you are the one being deceived? Would you be just as willing to listen to their claims and to grant them the possibility of being right? Or would you just refuse from the get go to admit that you might be wrong?
Just wondering...
Sue

Carico wrote:

So do you believe your opinions are true? Or are you spreading opinions you think are false? if so, then you need to stop passing along false statements and listen to others so you can adopt opinions that you think are true.

I might give my reasons for why I believe my opinions are "right", but I don't claim they are "the truth"--as if I'm more able to know what is "truth" than anyone else. Especially on things that can't be positively known--like "God", which requires faith. It's much easier to be certain of issues related to the physical world than to supernatural entities which are beyond our ability to know. Personally believing something to be true is one thing, trying to convince others something is "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth", is another.
Several Christians and non-Christians on this forum have admitted that we could be wrong, even though we all strongly believe we are right. Can you admit that absolute truth cannot truly be known by human beings yet, and that you could possibly be wrong in your beliefs?

[Aaron]

Can you admit that absolute truth cannot truly be known by human beings yet, and that you could possibly be wrong in your beliefs?

Chaa, thats where faith comes in right? It would be a lie to say that as a Christian I do not have doubts, that I do not sometimes wonder if I am wrong. There have been times when one of you stubborn athiests have said something that stuck in my head and have made me wonder if I had gotten it all wrong from the very beginning. I have really had to go through what I believe. But I can stand here today and honestly say that God has led me through every one of those times of doubt. Today my faith in Him is as strong as it has ever been and I take no credit. To Him be the glory. As for me being arrogant... well I realize why you would say that. However, that is the last thing I want to be. I guess I would say to you that I really do believe ever so deeply that I speak the truth. And it is because of that belief that I am writing to you now. I suppose you could call me arrogant, but I would call it the right thing to do. What is your take? If you believed the way I do as strongly as I do would it be wrong of you to not tell others about your beliefs?

[Carico]

You do realise that what you've said makes no sense whatsoever? Did you even read Scott's post above before spouting this nonsense? How does "What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight." in your head translate into "Homosexuality is a sin condemned by Jesus"? And it particularly irks me when people like you come up with meaningless phrases like "....because Jesus is the Word" as if somehow this explains anything at all. Can you instead direct us to any PRESCRIPTIVE passage from the New Testament which unequivocally condemns homosexuality? This is yet another example of certain Christians misusing the Bible to peddle their inate hatred of whatever their pastor tells them is evil.

Sorry but that comes from the bible, not me, namely John 1:1-2, and John 1:14. So your quarrel is with God, not me. So I can see why it irks you. If you think that Jesus would disagree with God's law, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, then you believe that Jesus disagrees with God and thus cannot be from God or be God. That would make him a house divided against itself.

So not only is your statement blasphemy, [/b it is helping to lead homosexuals straight on the path to hell. Do you care? Not in the least. I want them to go heaven. One cannot receive forgiveness for something he doesn't admit is wrong. People like you will do everything you can to prevent their salvation. That's called hate.