Experiences that cause them to believe

[mensbattleplan]

haha. sorry.

[Pseudonym]

I suggest you also read my entire post (including the elements about encouraging uncertainty and about Purgatory), along Lawrence's catalogue of the "deeds" passages from elsewhere in the Bible.

I did read the all of your post, and Lawrence's too. I didn't have time to go into the difference between antithesis and contradiction, but I guess I need to at least touch on it briefly.

The aphorisms "many hands make light work" and "too many cooks spoil the broth" are antithetical, but not contradictory. Had they both appeared in a sacred text, you just know that someone who really wants to find contradictions in that sacred text would probably find them both and identify them as such.

In the real world, directives, commandments, principles and aphorisms often work like this. It is not a contradiction to the principle of freedom of speech to ban yelling fire in a crowded theatre. It is not a contradiction to the rule that you can eat what you like that you shouldn't eat something that is poisonous.

The best analogy that I can come up with at the moment is that a reformed petty criminal may only have to promise to be good in future to be accepted back into society. This promise should inevitably result in lawful behaviour. A promise without subsequent lawful behaviour is an empty promise.

Did that help?

You are right that there is disagreement in the details and Lawrence is right that there is plenty of nuance. But it is completely orthodox Christianity that you are "saved by faith". The confusion might be that "saved by faith" and sola fide are not quite the same thing; sola fide is a subset of "saved by faith". In fact, the Catholic and Protestant opinions on salvation by faith are, as far as I can tell, essentially identical, and the difference is that they define "faith" slightly differently. The difference is the role of divine grace.

Having said that, I know pretty much nothing about the history of Purgatory. I've always heard it justified with reference to the Deutercanonical texts, but I don't know if that's where it came from or not.

By the way, is it a huge stretch to feel like, that by picking out such a small and incomplete component of my post, you were acting like a jerk?

How you feel is up to you, but I apologise if I came across that way.

It's kind of hard to live up to Jesus' dictum, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect."

If any of us could completely live up to our ideals, they wouldn't be "ideal".

[NH Baritone]

In keeping with the original post, here is an experience that is both Christian and antithetical to most Protestants:

QUOTATION OF THE DAY

"There's a lot of power here. You can feel the presence of Mary, and it feels like she's listening to you."
THERESA VANDERMAUSE, visiting Our Lady of Good Help chapel in Wisconsin

Apparently, according to the article, this Wisconsin chapel is deemed to be the first place in the US officially recognized by the Roman Catholics as experiencing a visitation from St. Mary.

This is a profound experience for R. C. believers, but seems entirely self-delusion to many outsiders.

[gary_s]

It's funny that you go on after this comment to talk about how little people know about their own religion and others because I don't think you know what idolatrous means.

I don't think that other religions say that Christians are idolatrous because the basic tenets do not involve worshiping idols. "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
However,many Chinese religions who worship their ancestors and their bones, African culture who believe that gods are in objects such as trees, many shamans believe that objects have powers themselves to give predictions of the future. Read Chasing the Dragon and you'll see that many people in Hong Kong worshiped idols and called themselves "idol worshipers".

I believe that Buddhist, Muslims, some Hindus, Christians are not idolatrous because they don't believe that the gods reside in objects like many ancient religions do.

I think it's funny that you got all that from my comment. What caused my reaction was your "they do, why?" comment.

So when I ask the person why other religions consider Christians to be idolatrous I wanted him to clarify because I didn't think that he meant to use word idolatrous. Maybe he should have used the word "wrong", "incorrect", "blasphemous" , "impious".

You just made my point.

I'm constantly amazed at the assumptions that people make based on a short conversation. You mistakenly believe that I:

assume that their faith has a higher level of validity because of some innocuous detail or another (such as your comments about a personal savior).

I was simply answering a question

"Is there something uniquely Christian about your experiences that you wouldn't get if you were in some other religion?"

And I said "The experiences that a Christian has is very unique to Christianity. Other religions don't experience having Jesus as their savior from their sins. They have other gods and things that save them. They have idols to save them. They have themselves. "

Where in what I said made you think that I assumed my faith has a higher level of validity because of this detail? I was simply saying that Jews, Muslims, Hindus will not experience Jesus as a savior from their sins. This in no way makes Christianity more valid, it's just a fact. (Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the only way to make atonement with God because their sins.)

Sure, it's difficult not to draw conclusions based on little information, but it's also not that unreasonable. I get that the Christian claim is based on "Jesus", but you don't acknowledge the fact that even though "Jesus" isn't the focus of other "savior" based religions, there are others who fill his role, so the difference is often subtle. So, the claim that only Jesus can provide salvation is still my point - that you consider this the only valid form of salvation, they only real way to practice spirituality. You may not have said it, but it is implied. If you agree that Jesus is not the only valid savior, then you can certainly say so. Can a person experience the nature of existence (god) in their own way and be right even though you do it another way entirely?

Fleeting knowledge? I wouldn't use the word fleeting. I'm sure you are familiar with the latest study done the Pew research center. http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-P ... urvey.aspx. Evangelicals, which I'm guessing is who you talk to the most about religion, know the most of their own religion than any other group.

Yes, I said fleeting and I meant fleeting. Personal experience and surveys back me up on this. The very survey you mentioned, in fact, proves you wrong on this. White Evangelicals may know the most about Christianity, but they are still behind those who don't even believe in their god. This is my point. A staggering percentage of practicing Christians have only an elementary knowledge of their own religion. They are routinely bested by non-believers. Yet it is the Christians who are so profoundly sure of their beliefs. To me this is quite worrisome.

I'm not so sure that people are so certain. I think most religious people DO go along with whatever religion they were brought up in. But some of us don't blindly believe. We research, we come on atheist/christian forums to learn and discuss, we understand facts about science and we still see that they fit into our beliefs. (Ie. the age of the earth being 2.5+ billion year still fits into the creation model.)

OK, two part response to this. 1. the percentage of christians who actively debate their religion with non-believers must be minuscule. There's simply no way it represents a common sampling of christians. To say that "some" of you do this is even an overstatement. I would say that an almost insignificant number of you do this.

2. You may be right that many christians are not as certain as they present themselves, but it's hard to know this. If pressed, they are usually quick to show their determination and devotion, but then, this is what is expected right? Lack of faith is a weakness, right? So, it's not really healthy for a christian to show his doubts in public. I understand all this. It's a paradox.

I can honestly say that I believe that Christianity makes the most sense. I like that the Bible was written by so many different people over thousands of years and the details match up so perfectly (some of you may think there are too many contradictions. read my article on this http://www.mensbattleplan.com/2010/12/10/condradictions-in-the-bible/

.

But this is one of the most insignificant reasons to believe such a thing. Don't you think it is just as easy for people to conform to past predictions in order to conform to expectations? Can you honestly say that you have experienced enough of the world's religions to really understand and comprehend them? Do you really know what they offer and what they are made of enough to compare? I seriously doubt it.

I like how the Bible in Gen 17:20 predicts that Muslims will be what they are today "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation."

But this is just fitting past statements into your version of the present. This is not a real prediction. Nostradamus is better than this.

I love that Christianity is the only religion where your behavior doesn't determine where you spend the afterlife

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Unless you are Catholic. And you are wrong by the way.

Spiritual salvation must be a complex concept because it is practiced by billions and has been in existence for all of known human history. So the idea that I should simply assume the religious tradition that I grew up knowing is the only valid one is a most absurd concept.

You are right!

So why do so many Christians do this?

[humanguy]

The experiences that a Christian has is very unique to Christianity.

Would you describe the experience you had that caused you to believe in Christianity?

[mensbattleplan]

mensbattleplan wrote:The experiences that a Christian has is very unique to Christianity.

Would you describe the experience you had that caused you to believe in Christianity?

If I did I think you would just label them as coincidences.

I sort of took the approach of "trying Christianity out". From there a bunch of very strange and unique experiences happened that assured me there was a God. And since then there is no doubt in my mind that He is real.