An ex-Christian can't understand why anybody still believes

[Spectrox War]

Mitchell - thank you for a well-written piece. Not so sure I agree with everything you said but I appreciate the effort on your part. The comment about being in a crowd is the cowards way out - being from the US yourself, surely there's not a crowd of atheists there?

Also I didn't get your comment about expressing your belief in God in the context of Christianity. What does that mean exactly? How much of the Bible do you believe? Has God expressed herself (!) in any other way to you?

[cleve]

... Believers are stuck in their own circular argument which is based on the loophole of faith. No amount of evidence or logic will have any effect on the faithful, so brainwashed have they become. They have turned into what their fictitious God wanted them to be - sheep-like sycophants to an idea. It’s about time they grew up and let this absurdist nonsense go. ...

SW,
That isn't true. What's the purpose for being "stuck" in circular arguments? For myself, these arguments can be resolved by focusing on what/how things have been provided (there's no loophole of faith here). I'm "stuck" on the plain facts of my own experiences of having been wonderfully provided for. Also there facts are that state that I am "fearfully and wonderfully made" - for that matter, so is everything I see or care enough to think or study further and be thankful for.

During our lifetime, the theories of evolution can serve as human constructs that are good mental exercises; until we learn more perspectives, that's their basic purpose. However, real evolution isn't theoretical. All living creatures are wonderful/useful because of God's purposeful creation of them. One example is the positive functions that microbacteria have served me in growing the veggies in my garden. In similar fashion, evolution processes are merely a segment of God's creation, as well as another type of His creation. Also, making Adam from the dust of the earth could be another form of creation that we finite humans are only starting to understand.

[Spectrox War]

Cleve wrote: What's the purpose for being stuck in circular arguments?

Have you not seen The Matrix where everyone is stuck in a program? That's all religion is to me. A psychological computer virus that sometimes passes from person to person through language and shared experience.

All of your comments after this could easily work without the word "God". Why bother unless you can define what God is properly? I notice from your signature that you like Christ. What's the appeal for you? Which version of Christ are we talking about - NIV, RSV, King James, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, etc.?

[mitchellmckain]

Mitchell - thank you for a well-written piece. Not so sure I agree with everything you said but I appreciate the effort on your part. The comment about being in a crowd is the cowards way out - being from the US yourself, surely there's not a crowd of atheists there?

That is not what I meant. Its not a matter of whether you reconize the simple fact of whether you are a Christian or an atheist. That would not make sense for me after all since it is clear that the theists and the Christians are after all the bigger crowd by far. No I was refering to your rational for avoiding any middle roads. I will not avoid standing in the middle when both sides are wrong! In that context seeking a crowd is the cowardly way out. So in the context of this forum it means that I will be on the side of the atheists when the christians are wrong and I will be on the side of the Christians when the atheists are wrong.

Also I didn't get your comment about expressing your belief in God in the context of Christianity. What does that mean exactly?

It means that I do not buy any packages but make my own decision on every single issue and often for my own reasons that vastly differ from those of most. My answers are not dictated by christian theology but I will point out what there is in it that is right and what I think is wrong.



In the rest, I want to make it clear that you are asking about what I believe and so none of this is meant in any way to say what you have to believe or should believe. SO... if you genuine want to know what I believe then read on. Otherwise just skip it.

How much of the Bible do you believe?

That is an interesting question and a complex one to answer. I have to admit that there is at least one part that I must reject completely as totaly disgusting and other parts that need to be "handled with care". But otherwise I have thought the Bible to be the word of God, most startling in just how much it criticizes and condemns the most "religious" people of the times. I don't believe in talking snakes, magical fruit that gives you gives you knowledge or ancient necromancers making golems of dust and flesh. But I do believe there is a profound message from God in these stories and I have no reason to doubt that they were real historical people including Adam and Eve (but not including Job because I think that book was intended as a parable and a homily not a history). I believe that abiogenesis and evolution can explain the origin of life and the species but that this is more compatable rather than less compatible with Christian theology and the Bible.

Has God expressed herself (!) in any other way to you?

Absolutely. In the universe around us there is access to the mind and purpose of its creator that is far less contaminated by the irrational ideas of human beings. The Bible itself points in this direction in Romans 1:20, "Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made."

[cleve]

Cleve wrote: What's the purpose for being stuck in circular arguments?

Have you not seen The Matrix where everyone is stuck in a program?

SW,
Yes.

That's all religion is to me. A psychological computer virus that sometimes passes from person to person through language and shared experience.

Is there a reason you think it has to be that way? How about spending time alone with God in the mountains?

All of your comments after this could easily work without the word "God".

What does that mean?

Why bother unless you can define what God is properly?

I will leave defining what God is up to you. I just want to enjoy Him.

I notice from your signature that you like Christ. What's the appeal for you?

I enjoy the relational side of thinking about Him.

Which version of Christ are we talking about - NIV, RSV, King James, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, etc.?

I'm not really into versions, let alone religions.

[jordanws]

Mitchell McKain - OK you are right. I set myself my own word trap there. It was when you said I need to do something to improve my understanding - as if I was in need of help. In terms of having an agenda - do you reaaly think that Christians don't have an agenda - I mean the genuine ones who believe the entire Bible to be the infallible word of God, not the wishy washy ones who "cherry pick" what they want to believe and are basically atheists in denial?

...

Jordanws - perhaps I still have some anger about what happened to me? Who wouldn't if they found out they had been lied to about my purpose on this planet - unintentional or not, the effect is the same. But I suppose it's given me a valuable insight into how millions of religious people think. I just don't get why many Christians don't question their faith at all just because it feels good. I mean who can seriously believe Biblical-style miracles? I find them ridiculous and totally unbelievable. Maybe they have invested too much into it to let it go?
Anyway, thanks for your replies guys. I'm happy to debate further.

What do you mean by 'Genuine'? You mean those who think like the Christians you were brought up around? Biblical inerrantists are not the only genuine Christians - far from it. Throughout history, there have been many different interpretations of how to read scripture, and not all of them required believers to hide from science and creation in order to believe a particular interpretation.

I am not an atheist in denial, nor do I believe that I must believe everything in the Bible is literal.

On your other point, I question my faith all the time, and still I come back to it. It doesn't feel good - it would be far easier for me to deny my faith and live as an atheist, but I always (so far) in the end, return to Christ. And, for the record, I seriously believe Biblical-style miracles.

[Spectrox War]

jordanws wrote: And, for the record, I seriously believe Biblical-style miracles.

Oh right, would that be the folllowing?:

The virgin birth
Turning water (H20)into alcohol (C2H5OH)
Jesus raising others from the dead including himself
Gravity-defying walking on water
Glowing in the dark on a hilltop
Feeding thousands of hungry people with hardly anything more substantial than a KFC Bucket
Withering a fig tree for being out of season (the only story I've ever read in which I feel sorry for a tree - it wasn't the trees fault)
Let us not forget the last great miracle before the crucifiction - the sticking back of the ear
And finally Jesus dying on the cross and long dead holy men rise from their graves and parade around Jerusalem like something out of Shaun of the Dead

Several tall tales that litter the Old Testament including a talking snake and a talking donkey

If you truly believe what amounts to a superstitious collection of old Jewish folk tales then you have my sympathy.

I rest my case.

[jordanws]

jordanws wrote: And, for the record, I seriously believe Biblical-style miracles.

Oh right, would that be the folllowing?:

The virgin birth
Turning water (H20)into alcohol (C2H5OH)
Jesus raising others from the dead including himself
Gravity-defying walking on water
Glowing in the dark on a hilltop
Feeding thousands of hungry people with hardly anything more substantial than a KFC Bucket
Withering a fig tree for being out of season (the only story I've ever read in which I feel sorry for a tree - it wasn't the trees fault)
Let us not forget the last great miracle before the crucifiction - the sticking back of the ear
And finally Jesus dying on the cross and long dead holy men rise from their graves and parade around Jerusalem like something out of Shaun of the Dead

Several tall tales that litter the Old Testament including a talking snake and a talking donkey

If you truly believe what amounts to a superstitious collection of old Jewish folk tales then you have my sympathy.

I rest my case.

I accept your sympathy, thank you for caring.

[Kiwi]

I escaped the brainwashing because I was afflicted with an honest streak and had the courage to continue to ask questions. And when I realised that the answers I was getting from Christians, the Bible and prayer were circular, pat answers I realised I had no rational justification for believing any of it. My faith then crumbled.

How long ago was that? What was the reaction of your friends and family whom you left behind in the faith? Did you start waging war across the internet straight away? What is your relationship with the Christians in your life, if any? The reason I ask is that when my own faith crumbled I went through a process of grief, loneliness, then a bit of bitterness, throw in a bit of smug satisfaction ... the whole gamut. I've ended up in a place where I can respect people on both sides even though I disagree wholeheartedly with one of those sides. I don't regret my Christian years - they made me who I am today - although I'm glad to be out of it. And I didn't emerge with anywhere near as much vitriol as you exhibit. So, aside from all the 'Iron Age' and 'Christians are brainwashed' rhetoric, which it looks like we're going to see a lot of, what's your story? Who are you, Spectrox War? Do you have a partner? Kids? How has your life changed for the better - or worse - since leaving your faith? What brings you here with your vaguely Doctor Whoish handle and your menacing avatar? It's easy to swing through with a diatribe - we've heard it all before. Give us something new.

Really like your signature line by the way. Nice.

[Spectrox War]

Kiwi wrote - How has your life changed for the better - or worse - since leaving your faith? What brings you here with your vaguely Doctor Whoish handle and your menacing avatar?

Ah, you recognise my avatar as being from Dr Who. It is a character called Sharaz Jek from my favourite story "Caves of Androzani." He is the main villain but one with a difference - he has a soft centre and has been grievously wronged and I could therefore sympathise with his position. A bit like me in fact! He was played by the late, great Christopher Gable (an ex-ballet dancer!). Sorry if it's menacing - but it would be worse if the mask was off - he's horribly disfigured! The design is based on a Zulu war mask. In fact the reason I call myself Spectrox War is because I never liked the title "Caves of Androzani." The story is about the struggle for the control of a drug called Spectrox in a war zone. The story should have been called "Spectrox War" IMO - a much better title I think - but never mind.

I was brought up Church of England (i.e. I didn't have to believe in God, I was just taught that Jesus was a good bloke and I was encouraged to watch Jesus of Nazareth (1975) at age 10 (an excellent film by the way)). When I left home I fell away from it but had a resurgence in the mid nineties after I had undergone what can only be described as a spiritual crisis. But I soon realised there was something badly wrong with several ideas and details in the Bible and rejected it as not true. Sure, I gained some enlightenment from it - but it's a philosophical cul-de-sac.

You may get rants aand cheap shots now and again on this blog or you may get calmer posts like this one. It depends on my mood. Sharaz Jek was quite emotional, you know.

My reason for being on this blog is I suppose that Christianity and I have unfinished business. When I decided that my faith was stupid, I went through a similar depressing, lonely process that many people have gone through (not helped by some idiot Christians telling me that I was never saved in the first place because God doesn't give someone a gift and then take it away - the worst kind of lie I can imagine) and so I distanced myself completely from it and did not engage for years in order to protect myself emotionally. Fortunately, it didn't really involve close friends or family. But now after many years in the wilderness I have risen invigorated. I hope my ramblings will get someone to think about what they truly believe. It would be an honour and a privilege if someone on this forum read my posts and got enough from them to begin to question the whole thing. "I agree with Spectrox War. Slavery is wrong. It's always been wrong. Where's God's vision for the abolition of slavery? It isn't there. It's missing. And yeah, he's right about no-one being deserving of eternal torture for not loving a fictitious character in a book. Not even for Hitler, Stalin or Julius Caesar. And yes he's right about the miracles. They're ludicrous. Totally unbelievable. Why am I wasting my time on this nonsense?" Etc.

So if someone gets anything positive at all from my posts (even the ones that take the pesh) then I'm happy. And it's free of charge.

[Kiwi]

Superb response! Thanks.

...some idiot Christians telling me that I was never saved in the first place because God doesn't give someone a gift and then take it away - the worst kind of lie I can imagine

Yes, I get whiffs of that accusation too. It comes veiled sometimes, but it's often there. I find it insulting.

When you found yourself in the midst of a spiritual resurgence in the 90s where did you end up? A church? Or did you fly solo, so to speak?

(I've not seen Caves of Androzani but am aware that it's generally acknowledged as being the greatest episode of all time. If it's the same one I'm thinking of.)

[Spectrox War]

Thanks Kiwi

at least someone doesn't think I'm a Dr Who villain (unlike tirrtlegirl and humanguy) - although I admit I have entered this forum with all guns blazing. I just didn't think there was any point on treading on eggshells, skirting round the issue, beating about the bush etc.

Talking of beating about the bush - how's Australia? Sorry, just looked again at your location - how's Middle Earth?

I was thinking of emigrating there a few years ago but decided against it.

You asked about what happened during my spiritual crisis. Well it just so happened that I was in a weird space in my life - I had low self-esteem, I felt my life was without purpose etc. I met some Christians and I liked them. I started going to a Baptist Church and I thought the Pastor's sermons had real meaning. I liked the idea of ultimate justice and the warm glow of feeling saved was indescribably comforting. I was happy that God hadn't answered all my questions immediately. They would come I told myself. But they never did. And I can remember reading one of the Gospels one day and I realised I just didn't believe it. It was totally unbelievable. I had long chats with one of my friends who was an ex-Christian. And I came to the conclusion that the Bible wasn't completely true. Why would God write a book that was only half correct? Surely it's easy for him to write something perfect if he can create the entire cosmos and keep that running? I prayed very hard. Again and again because I didn't want to lose that feeling of drug-like euphoria (as if I had taken the drug Spectrox!). But no-one listened because there was nobody there. I soon realised that when I was praying I was just talking to myself. It had all been for nothing. Perhaps the Buddhists were right? God was inside me not outside. I had deluded myself. The Bible was simply God in Man's image at the time. Not the other way around.

I then fell on top of a girl called Rachel and that was the end of Jesus and me.

If you get a chance to watch Caves of Androzani I thoroughly recommend it. It's remarkable for a family show in 1984. The elements that make the story successful are timeless. Tales of betrayal, hatred and revenge have formed the basis of dramas that span the centuries. And it has everything going for it. Brilliant script by Dr Who veteran writer Robert Holmes, great direction that gives it a powerful visual quality and some excellent performances. I find it absolutely gripping from start to finish. The only duff bit is some stupid monster that they throw in for the episode 2 cliffhanger. But the rest of it is so good, it's forgivable.

Anyway good to meet you on this blog. Hope to speak to you again soon assuming some self-appointed blog nazi doesn't chase me off for being honest and to the point. Strange really because that's exactly how Jesus was!

[tirtlegrrl]

@SW

Nobody's chasing you off for being honest and to the point. You want some honesty? Here you go: get over your messianic persecution complex and listen to the people here who have been here awhile and can help you get your actual arguments to be taken seriously. You start off your career here by unilaterally insulting all Christians and then get your knickers all twisted up when someone suggests that strategy might not be a good one. I'm not a Nazi. I'm trying to HELP you. If I thought you were just some internet troll I'd ignore you.

[Spectrox War]

Oh dear. It seems I've upset the Nicey Nice Police. What are you protecting exactly? You speak as though the Bible and its supporters are worthy of some kind of deserved respect. They are not. You accuse me of bullying and being insulting and yet curiously the God of the Bible is a thousand times more bullying and insulting than I could ever hope to be.

Let's look at this philosophy again shall we to see if it's acceptable in a modern world? What attributes does God have?
1. He supports genocide! e.g. the Amalakites, Canaanites etc were all put mercilessly to the sword, apart from the virgin girls of course. How is this any different from Hitler, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan? God is unbelievably racist.
2. Mysoginist - women are not portrayed as being women in the Bible - they are portrayed as being either saints or sluts.
3. He's a bully - look at the story of Abraham about to sacrifice his son. And then changing his mind at the last moment as if that's acceptable. It's bullying and child abuse all in one horrible story.
4. Homophobic - what would it have been like to be stoned to death? As the first few rocks started to hit?
Jesus didn't talk of gay people but he said the first 5 books were true and they contain the most appalling homophobia. So Jesus doesn't get off the hook either.
5. Jesus' belief in Hellfire and damnation for all eternity for finite "crimes" or sins - he goes on and on about Hell so much in the Bible, at times it's as if he's deriving some sadistic pleasure from it all.
6. The Bible inspired the Spanish Inquisition - probably the most dreadful crimes ever perpetrated against humanity, arguably even worse than the Nazis. At least the Nazis killed people quickly by and large. The Inquisition didn't. They deliberately extended people's suffering in the most gruesome ways possible because they believed they were saving their souls. And who can blame them in a sense if they believed that eternity is more important than the here and now? Jesus' language is very brutal "If your right arm causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away". If someone really is God, they had better be careful about how they phrase things because some people will take it to heart. The Inquisitors take responsibility for what they did, but even if Jesus is responsible for only a small amount of this by setting the ball rolling then it's still really really bad.

Then let's look at the bits in the Bible that are an insult to my intelligence such as the miracles, Noah's Ark, talking snakes and tallking donkeys.

Unfortunately I had to be woken up from my sleepwalk into oblivion. When my faith was crumbling but I was still clinging on to what I had, an ex-Christian/atheist friend of mine and I had heated debates. They weren't pleasant but I'm so glad I listened to him because he appealed to my humanity and common sense.

If Christians are insulted by what I write in spite of all the evidence being presented to them (not just by me) - then I don't feel sorry for them. In fact, the tinyest violin in the world just snapped between my fingers playing a sad tune for them. If they want to be sheep and be emotionally fleeced by this nonsense then all I can say is "Baaaahhh."

The God of the Bible isn't big enough, isn't accurate enough & isn't moral enough. He just isn't good enough. The whole thing is the greatest story ever sold.

And yet some people defend it still. There's one born every minute...

[jordanws]

No one is insulted by your 'evidence', spectrox. They're insulted by the manner you use your evidence to avoid any sort of rational or even comprehendible debate, and by the manner in which you insult every Christian who attempts to communicate with you.

As my dad used to say, it's not you I dislike, it's your mannerisms I can't stand.