Dr Mundo wrote:mitchellmckain wrote:
No aside from the problems in your use of the word "magically", that isn't quite right. I don't think that there is any doubt that Moonwood and Rian believe that God DOES have the power to heal people, just as I do.
If you believe that God does have the “power” (magic power??) to heal people can you , for the love of God, enlighten me on what process he uses to heal your cancer?
Why in the world would you dream that I can enlighten you on what process God uses to heal cancer. I can only say that I personally do no believe that God would use any method that violates the laws of nature. But since the laws of nature are not causally closed or deterministic that does not at all preclude a causal role of God in the healing of cancer.
Dr Mundo wrote: Asking in your head, and then having an all “powerful” being remove any type of dieses from your body seems to be a whole lot like magic.
Not to me, unless you think that the asking guarantees the result as if you were in control.
Dr Mundo wrote:Does a flower growing in a garden count as magical? No its natural, our bodies are known to have processes in place to fight of infections, bacteria and dieses. Claiming that an entity with infinite power was responsible for the cancer diminishing from your body does count as magical though (at least to me).Cancer does go into remission. Does that count as magical?
Not to me. Because I know that the laws of nature are NOT causally closed or deterministic. Thus I know that there is no logical contradiction whatsoever between everything happening completely according the operation of natural laws and God being responsible for the remission of cancer in someone.
Dr Mundo wrote:
But regardless prayer can never be a magical means of healing people because people do not and cannot ever control what God does.
How do you know that people cannot control what God does?
It does not make any sense. Not of any God that I would believe in. If people can control something then that would automatically disqualify that as something that I would ever call God. Perhaps there are "things" that people can control in order to heal things, but I would call such things by the names of "technology" or "aliens" but certainly not by the name of "God".
Dr Mundo wrote:it doesn’t mean that god cannot answer our prayers I know. It doesn’t mean that he can either, it doesn’t mean anything.
Not to YOU. But what has meaning and value to you is not anything like an absolute measure of meaning and value, anymore than what has meaning and value to me.
Dr Mundo wrote:Now what would be silly is if you think that ALL you needed to do would be to pray and that this would cure your cancer. That would indeed be a magical type of thinking –
Wait a minute……. This is exactly what I was talking about this whole time.
It has been quite clear that the subtleties of this topic are escaping you completely.
Dr Mundo wrote:So you think that somebody thinking of thoughts, and that a being that exists everywhere and can hear those and everyone else’s thoughts at the same time is easy for me to believe? How can you not understand that I find it extremely difficult to believe that?
Why in the world should I even believe that, since I know that you did once. It simply comes down the fact that you chose to believe that once and now you don't. I have absolutely no problem with the fact that we make different choices with regards to this objectively undecidable issue.
Dr Mundo wrote: To me it is black and white with respects to my prior stamen. You either believe that, or you don’t. I don’t, I have no reason to.
You should look up this article I heard about today on the radio, "I was wrong and so are you". It shows how people get stupid when it comes to things that contradict their ideological stand on things. Insisting on such simpleton black and white understanding of things when things really are not that simple is an excellent example of how people make themselves conveniently stupid.
Dr Mundo wrote:I do need you to clarify it for me though, Do you or do you not believe that the existence of God can be demonstrated or shown to be true so that we can all know it?
No the existence of God is NOT objectively demonstrable. BUT that does NOT mean that it cannot be known. The insistence that anyone can live their lives only based on what is provable or objectively demonstrable is unreasonable, because that just isn't possible. Proof and objective evidence is a comparatively rare occurrence and things happen all the time that provide nothing of the sort. It is absolutely ridiculous to insist that we act like things did not happen simply because one cannot prove it. The MOST that we can say is that without such evidence or proof we cannot reasonable expect other people to accept that it happened and NOT that we ourselves to whom it actually happened must believe that it did not happen.
Dr Mundo wrote:The greatest being and creator of the universe has told us quite clearly that He is intimately concerned and involved in our personal lives.
how can you even say something like this.. quite clearly “told” us eh? How is that?
I think you know the answer to that question as it has already been discussed with KTR.
The point is that, it is NOT arrogance for people to decide what they believe based on their own experiences and judgements. The arrogance is insisting that everyone must believe as YOU do. I do not see Moonwood or Rian doing that. I see you doing that. What YOU believe on objectively undecidable issues is NOT the standard of rationality or arrogance!