"Why are all you atheists so angry?"

[Keep The Reason]

Yes I think that's true; there is often a level of emotional involvement that is different with theists. And some of us can be very vulnerable. But I think one answer is to criticise rather than abuse.

Which the Greta speech actually was-- it was an angry critique but it wasn't abuse. No name calling or tantruming.

I have suggested that Greta Christina is rather immature in her thinking (not as a person I wouldn't know about that) but I have not felt a need to call her any names. Now the reaction my criticism called forth from you seemed very emotional and angry; you did seem to feel you were under attack.

Not ME under attack, but the right to be angry at things that are legitimate issues to be angry about dismissed and derided.

Now I don't for one minute think this is because you literally worship Greta Christina and you were careful to say that you did not regard all her views as necessarily correct but there was a sense of you not feeling she was being given the respect she deserved

No, no no. Not the person, the POSITION and the right to be legitimately angry. I took greatest issue with humanguy and Rians dismissive ness, just like Aaron's "translation" tactic is really disrespectful to people (to actively reconfigure what someone's says into something they do not say is odious, low, and lacks integrity. Getting angry at that tactic is LEGITIMATE. Being scolded for being angry at something one has valid reason to be angry at, is heaping more disrespect on disrespect.). The only thing about our exchange that pissed me off was when it looked like you were blowing by a far greater point. But we worked through that easily because you took ownership and I recognized I was over hasty.

I don't expect that sort of operation from Rian, Aaron, or humanguy. They have a clear cut agenda on some things, and there's nothing I can do about it other than exposé it when I see it. And I have no obligation to be friendly about it.

However as soon as he starts trying to do philosophy something just goes wrong.

Perfectly legitimate position to hold, whether I agree with it or not.

[Aaron]

Just sayin KTR but if your concern is truly for human happiness then it sure seems like theres a lot better stuff you could be doing, like trying to respond to the basic needs of humans.

God: What did you do with your time on earth KTR?
KTR: Well I made human happiness my highest priority in life. I was part of a movement that allowed us to kill embryos and I made sure teenage girls got well stocked up on condoms.
God: But what about all those people who didn't even have food to eat and vaccines for preventable diseases and clean water to drink and clean homes to live in?
KTR: Uh, well they had condoms!
Pharisees: There's another poor bugar, he's strained out a gnat but swallowed a camel...




But you know who am I to suggest what you should do with your time... at least you're trying to do something right?

[Keep The Reason]

But you know who am I to suggest what you should do with your time... at least you're trying to do something right?

You have no idea what I do, what I am involved in, and my efforts towards this. Since you enjoy assuming things, assume you see a tiny sliver of my efforts here.

[humanguy]

I would have no problem with people being theists if it didn't translate in dictating what I should or should not do in the course of my life.

What do theists force you to do? What do you want to do that theists prevent you from doing?

[Aaron]

But you know who am I to suggest what you should do with your time... at least you're trying to do something right?

You have no idea what I do, what I am involved in, and my efforts towards this. Since you enjoy assuming things, assume you see a tiny sliver of my efforts here.

Eh you're right. I shouldn't have said what I did, sorry. For what its worth you do seem to have a very compassionate heart.

[gary_s]

Just sayin KTR but if your concern is truly for human happiness then it sure seems like theres a lot better stuff you could be doing, like trying to respond to the basic needs of humans.

God: What did you do with your time on earth KTR?
KTR: Well I made human happiness my highest priority in life. I was part of a movement that allowed us to kill embryos and I made sure teenage girls got well stocked up on condoms.
God: But what about all those people who didn't even have food to eat and vaccines for preventable diseases and clean water to drink and clean homes to live in?
KTR: Uh, well they had condoms!
Pharisees: There's another poor bugar, he's strained out a gnat but swallowed a camel...

But you know who am I to suggest what you should do with your time... at least you're trying to do something right?

I'm thinking this is walking a very thin line. When you challenge someone else on the basis of what charity they do, it presupposes that you are doing great charity yourself, or else why ask the question. Encouraging charity is one thing; pissing in the snow over who does the most charity is quite another. And anyway, good works are not derived solely from charitable actions, but also from courageous actions.

[Aaron]

Just sayin KTR but if your concern is truly for human happiness then it sure seems like theres a lot better stuff you could be doing, like trying to respond to the basic needs of humans.

God: What did you do with your time on earth KTR?
KTR: Well I made human happiness my highest priority in life. I was part of a movement that allowed us to kill embryos and I made sure teenage girls got well stocked up on condoms.
God: But what about all those people who didn't even have food to eat and vaccines for preventable diseases and clean water to drink and clean homes to live in?
KTR: Uh, well they had condoms!
Pharisees: There's another poor bugar, he's strained out a gnat but swallowed a camel...

But you know who am I to suggest what you should do with your time... at least you're trying to do something right?

I'm thinking this is walking a very thin line. When you challenge someone else on the basis of what charity they do, it presupposes that you are doing great charity yourself, or else why ask the question. Encouraging charity is one thing; pissing in the snow over who does the most charity is quite another.

Yeah you're right. What I said didn't do anyone any good. I shouldn't have said it.

[humanguy]

Hi, Keep the Reason.

I would have no problem with people being theists if it didn't translate in dictating what I should or should not do in the course of my life.

What do theists force you to do? What do you want to do that theists prevent you from doing?

[Dr Mundo]

Hi, Keep the Reason.

I would have no problem with people being theists if it didn't translate in dictating what I should or should not do in the course of my life.

What do theists force you to do? What do you want to do that theists prevent you from doing?

My guess is, they shouldn't prevent anyone from doing anything. Unless it is unlawful or hurtful to others then you know where I stand on that. aside from that should they not stay out of peoples lives?

[Keep The Reason]

What do theists force you to do? What do you want to do that theists prevent you from doing?

I've answered this. Look at my reply to Aaron. Your question is not appropriate because it assumes I have to be a direct victim of something before I am moved to act, and ignores my appropriate outrage at other human beings being victimized. Maybe you need something to happen directly to you before your empathy and outrage are moved. If you are, I pity you deeply. for myself, I don't need to be the direct victim of injustice to be moved to want to do something about it. One person killed, is like killing all of humanity. One person saved, is like saving all of humanity.

Clearly, there is more to heaven and Earth than is dreamed of in your philosophy, humanguy.

A lot more.

[Keep The Reason]

Eh you're right. I shouldn't have said what I did, sorry. For what its worth you do seem to have a very compassionate heart.

That's ok -- apology accepted.

[Moonwood the Hare]

I'm having trouble keeping up with this so let me make a general point about anger. Anger is a reality and if you feel it you feel it. Very often anger is misdirected. Take a person in an abusive relationship. They are angry and they have reason to be angry but they also love the person who is abusing them so they cannot see the abusive aspects of their relationship. So they deflect their anger onto other things or people and they will then try to justify that anger. If you look closely at that justification you may see that it is not rational because it does not hold together. But the person will not see that and the work needed for them to be able to see it may take a considerable amount of time and will not consist in further arguments.

Now lets me be clear that we are dealing with a complex situation here and I am not casting anyone in the role of the abusee misdirecting anger rather I am using this an an illustration that a person who has legitimate grounds for anger can misdirect that anger. So when a person says they are going to offer a justification for their anger, all we can do is to look at their argument and see if it holds together. If the argument does not hold as I think Greta Christina's does not then that does not mean the person has no valid grounds for anger or that their anger can be dismissed or belittled it just means that particular argument is flawed. It's the same situation as when someone offers an argument for or against the existence of God and the argument is shown to be flawed. It does not mean the matter is now settled just that that particular argument can be dismissed.

[humanguy]

What do theists force you to do? What do you want to do that theists prevent you from doing?

I've answered this. Look at my reply to Aaron. Your question is not appropriate because it assumes I have to be a direct victim of something before I am moved to act, and ignores my appropriate outrage at other human beings being victimized. Maybe you need something to happen directly to you before your empathy and outrage are moved. If you are, I pity you deeply. for myself, I don't need to be the direct victim of injustice to be moved to want to do something about it. One person killed, is like killing all of humanity. One person saved, is like saving all of humanity.

Clearly, there is more to heaven and Earth than is dreamed of in your philosophy, humanguy.

A lot more.

This is pointless. You're all over the place on this. Ralph Waldo Emerson notwithstanding, consistency can be a virtue in some cases.

You said:

I would have no problem with people being theists if it didn't translate in dictating what I should or should not do in the course of my life.

Sounds like being a direct victim of something to me, if what theists are dictating affects the course of your life!

I congratulate you on your all-encompassing philosophy, Keep the Reason, but don't write words just to write them, especially if you don't actually mean them.

[Keep The Reason]

Sounds like being a direct victim of something to me if what theists are dictating affects the course of your life!

In some instances, we are ALL direct victims.

I'll say it again:

Here's an example: stem cell research. Huge issue here in the USA primarily thanks to Christian morality (Bush in particular) If such Christians do not believe in such a religious tenet, then away goes the obstacle. My belief is that humans will discard such beliefs not in "accordance with my personal demands" like the nincompoopery that Aaron tries to redefine, but by recognizing that such beliefs are harmful, self destructive, and antithetical to human happiness. I don't think this change will happen without effort however.

Do you think I am 100% devoid of any health issues that such research and subsequent solutions could help? Ill bet so do you, and I know EVERYONE on this forum will eventually. But we are years behind thanks to obstacles put into place by people who believe in the bronze age philosophy of Christianity. And yes, I say it that way because medical science in those days was akin to magic. It's a direct cause/effect paradigm, and many humans are fucked because of it.

Now me personally, since you seem to need me to suffer before I before I am allowed to have a stake, even if the suffering might occur you know "in the course of my life" which INCLUDES MY FUTURE.

but no, you need a present day example. I was blessed by genetics with really bad teeth and not a year goes by when they don't cause me lots of pain and lots of dental work, and lots of money I could use in a lot of other ways. Now, take a second and click on this

link regarding stem cell research inexpensively finding ways to grow new teeth... In ASIA

and note that such research is IN ASIA. Why? Because Christians in the right wing think a blastocyst is a human being to be defended (up until birth, then it's corporate or military cannon fodder) at any and all costs. Even them getting unnecessary diseases.

Think this is a minor complaint? Its not. My daughter in laws father suffered a massive coronary after tooth extraction because there is a direct link between bacteria entering through the gums and certain heart diseases. A close friend just underwent open heart surgery to fix a valve that deteriorated for this very disease. This was last week. The relative with the coronary was a few months ago. If, 8 years back there was not a block against such research, who knows how things might have been different, especially with the USA leading the research, something we excell at? (before I have to reply to a waste of time push back, yes, NOW in the USA we can start this research, but we were held back a decade because of Christian obstacles; for me personally, the last 10 years of dental wars have been the worst in my life).

So, if their suffering doesn't "fit" your dopey demand that I must personally suffer, let me put the pieces in place for you. Now I am constantly having to monitor what damage to my heart is being done due to dental work. More money, more stress. Further, I come from a line of people with heart ailments, and that increases my risk factor.

Maybe one day they will be able to grow me a new one. Unless certain bronze age mythologies stand the way.

Satisfied? I will assume not.

[humanguy]

I asked you how theist dictates personally affect your life, and you said:

Your question is not appropriate because it assumes I have to be a direct victim of something before I am moved to act, and ignores my appropriate outrage at other human beings being victimized.

How was my question not appropriate when now, nine pages into this thread, you're saying that you are a direct victim of theist dictates?

For what it's worth, I know what it's like to have dental problems. I've had them since I was in a car crash when I was fifteen.