A closer look at demonstration

[gary_s]

Well I am getting bored so I will ignore gary's rants until he has calmed down.

Yes and I am equally bored with your intolerant insults.

[gary_s]

Now that Mitch has decided to stop harassing me on this thread, I think it is open to reasonable discussion again.

[mitchellmckain]

gary is a human being.

[Aaron]

So, if you put it this way: Christians fear the punishment of eternal hell and see god as the moral authority of the universe and these are two of the most important building blocks for their faith. I can guarantee that thousands of Christians would not argue with this phrase. But this is just a way of rewording it to put it in a more palatable form. The basic point of what Yuri said is still true.

I don't agree. Christians fear the Lord God who is perfect and holy and who will right all wrongs and bring justice to every situation. Christians have come to the point of recognizing and acknowledging the fact that they are sinful and deserving of the just wrath of God which will include separation from him in Hell. All that a Christian can do is say, "God have mercy on me a sinner".

[Aaron]

Aaron, this is a well thought out idea and sounds very logical.

Well thanks Gary, I appreciate it.

However, there are other explanations that fit just as well. I agree that the outward demonstration of power might not convince everyone because some will be skeptical, some may not witness it, some will interpret it differently and so on. But the other alternative is actually far more convincing. In fact, I think the meme of religion is actually extremely effective at convincing humans to behave in certain ways because it doesn't just try to force them into actions but rather gets into their thought process and works through human nature and psychology. Meme can be far more powerful than authoritarian edicts because of this. There are other memes that have success as well. Just look at the meme of science or the meme of democracy. Neither of these memes had to exist. They were both products of human ideas and once established they found purchase in the human psyche and perpetuate themselves. Religion is the most successful meme among these three and for that I am impressed by its power but I don't think it works any differently than the others. Just like religion there are people who resist the memes of science and democracy. All of these memes allow one to embrace its power or reject it outright. There are probably many other memes that I haven't though of.

I had to look up meme, hadn't heard that used before. I think you're right. A guy who starts to hang out with a group of people who hold themselves to a higher moral standard than his might be influenced in a sort of moral meme (if I've used that word correctly) to step up to his friends moral code. I have had similar things happen to me.

But the change that I'm talking about is not that type of change, its deeper and the change itself is sourced from God, not by the strength or will power of the person. There was a point in my life where I was trying to change something about myself that I didn't like, I would say I was trying to be good enough for God. It might be fair to say I was influenced by the meme of religion and that it was quite effective like you've observed: I wanted to change, I knew I should change, I wasn't being ordered to do it by someone in authority, I took it upon myself. But the harder I tried the farther I saw I was from my goal. Eventually things came to a head and I broke and by the grace of God I had his word in my hands and I started reading Romans and I finally understood what Jesus did for me and he came into me and I knew I was forgiven because of what he had done on the cross, I knew that he had given me his righteousness and that that was the only righteousness I ever needed. He changed me, he gave me life when I was spiritually dead.

So while I acknowledge the existence of what you call the meme of religion it is not what I am talking about.

[Aaron]

Hey Gary you prompted me to read through the thread again and I came across a tangent discussion that occurred on morality, I never got a response from Jim on this last post, perhaps he got tired of the discussion (which I understand btw Jim). Anyways, I just wanted to bump it back up and I felt I could do that even though its off topic since I started this thread...

Ditto regarding women voting in this country (Saudi Arabia and other places share a different consensus on that...). If the group/society in which you live says it's wrong to deny women the right to vote, for example, then in your society it IS wrong.... In Saudi Arabia, it's not yet considered "wrong" by enough people to change their laws and customs. So in Saudi Arabia, denying women the right to vote is NOT "wrong".

Scenario time. I'm a guy with my own views. I think those views are purely subjective. One day I sit down in a rather thoughtful state and ask myself, "I claim that I value fairness and honesty, how is it then that if I really believe my views are subjective that I should try to force the people around me to conform to my views, people who also have views which are purely subjective?". How is a guy living in Saudi Arabia supposed to come to terms with the fact that his views are purely subjective and yet try and make other people give woman the right to vote? Its unfair and its being dishonest to my belief that morality is purely subjective, how can I in all fairness expect someone else to change their subjective views just because they don't match up with my subjective views? What makes them different than me, what makes me so special? How can I do that without being awfully selfish?

I must believe that morality has some sort of objective component so that I can say to someone else, "We ought to be acting in this way or that way". Now hang on a second. I'm not saying that by objective component that those people are therefore saying the moral view itself is objective truth (although they might think that), but what I am saying is that as soon as the view is called a moral view it inherits the objective nature that morality carries with it. Whether or not the moral view is itself in reality an objective truth remains to be seen, but as soon as its called a moral view - meaning we believe other people should conform to that view - it achieves its power because we actually believe moral views have objective characteristics and if we say we don't believe that then I contend that we sure live that way in practice.

Thanks for making me think by the way Jim

[gary_s]

gary is a human being.

First thing you've said in quite a while that wasn't an insult.

[gary_s]

I don't agree. Christians fear the Lord God who is perfect and holy and who will right all wrongs and bring justice to every situation. Christians have come to the point of recognizing and acknowledging the fact that they are sinful and deserving of the just wrath of God which will include separation from him in Hell. All that a Christian can do is say, "God have mercy on me a sinner".

But Aaron, you can't speak for all Christians any more than I can. You can only speak for yourself and those you are very close to. Not all Christians have the same experiences that lead them to their beliefs and they certainly don't agree on everything.

[Keep The Reason]

gary is a human being.

First thing you've said in quite a while that wasn't an insult.

I'd like to suggest that "last wording" come to a close and each go to their separate corners.

[Aaron]

I don't agree. Christians fear the Lord God who is perfect and holy and who will right all wrongs and bring justice to every situation. Christians have come to the point of recognizing and acknowledging the fact that they are sinful and deserving of the just wrath of God which will include separation from him in Hell. All that a Christian can do is say, "God have mercy on me a sinner".

But Aaron, you can't speak for all Christians any more than I can. You can only speak for yourself and those you are very close to. Not all Christians have the same experiences that lead them to their beliefs and they certainly don't agree on everything.

You're right, there are many different experiences and some have probably come to faith in Christ because they feared Hell. But what I wrote I meant to be what I think is actually going on whether or not we realize it, of course I might be wrong.

[gary_s]

I had to look up meme, hadn't heard that used before. I think you're right. A guy who starts to hang out with a group of people who hold themselves to a higher moral standard than his might be influenced in a sort of moral meme (if I've used that word correctly) to step up to his friends moral code. I have had similar things happen to me.

But the change that I'm talking about is not that type of change, its deeper and the change itself is sourced from God, not by the strength or will power of the person. There was a point in my life where I was trying to change something about myself that I didn't like, I would say I was trying to be good enough for God. It might be fair to say I was influenced by the meme of religion and that it was quite effective like you've observed: I wanted to change, I knew I should change, I wasn't being ordered to do it by someone in authority, I took it upon myself. But the harder I tried the farther I saw I was from my goal. Eventually things came to a head and I broke and by the grace of God I had his word in my hands and I started reading Romans and I finally understood what Jesus did for me and he came into me and I knew I was forgiven because of what he had done on the cross, I knew that he had given me his righteousness and that that was the only righteousness I ever needed. He changed me, he gave me life when I was spiritually dead.

So while I acknowledge the existence of what you call the meme of religion it is not what I am talking about.

Aaron, we will simply have to accept disagreement on this. To me it is a meme. A meme is an idea or concept that gets into the minds of people and passes from one to others. A good meme is one that incorporates the basic functioning of the human mind and emotions. For what it's worth, I think that religion is the most successful meme known to man. It has permeated the entire globe and has lasted for many thousands of years. Religion answered many deep questions for ancient man and they found value and worth in it. And because it probes so deep into man's psyche, religion is one of those memes that becomes nearly locked once a person has fully internalized it.

A meme is something that you can't really prove exists, such as democracy. What is democracy? There is not democracy particle or gene or fluid; it's nothing but an idea, and it's an idea that grows and evolves over time to suit the people who hold it in their mind. I see religion as fitting this description perfectly. Science is also a meme, and it feeds on the deep desire to know things and to solve problems. Science didn't have to come to such a prominent place in humanity. It wasn't so for thousands of years and mankind got along just fine without it. The native inhabitants of the Americas practiced no organized form of Science and they did quite well. But Science came into existence in the minds of ancient men and the idea stuck just enough to spread and it still exists today and still evolves and mutates as people change and grow. There are probably many other memes out there as well. But what I'm telling you is that this is how I explain religion. This is how I interpret the facts of religion. You can believe that it is something entirely different, but that isn't going to change my interpretation because I simply cannot see it from your perspective. I've already been where you say you are, one of the converted, and yet my mind was not satisfied with that as the explanation. For me the meme conclusion is the only one that makes any sense at all and you can't ask me to change my mind any more than I can ask you to change yours. And like I've always said, you do whatever you have to do to make sense of existence. Just keep in mind that not everyone agrees with your version of reality.

[Moonwood the Hare]

Aaron, we will simply have to accept disagreement on this. To me it is a meme. A meme is an idea or concept that gets into the minds of people and passes from one to others. A good meme is one that incorporates the basic functioning of the human mind and emotions. For what it's worth, I think that religion is the most successful meme known to man. It has permeated the entire globe and has lasted for many thousands of years. Religion answered many deep questions for ancient man and they found value and worth in it. And because it probes so deep into man's psyche, religion is one of those memes that becomes nearly locked once a person has fully internalized it.

A meme is something that you can't really prove exists, such as democracy. What is democracy? There is not democracy particle or gene or fluid; it's nothing but an idea, and it's an idea that grows and evolves over time to suit the people who hold it in their mind. I see religion as fitting this description perfectly. Science is also a meme, and it feeds on the deep desire to know things and to solve problems. Science didn't have to come to such a prominent place in humanity. It wasn't so for thousands of years and mankind got along just fine without it. The native inhabitants of the Americas practiced no organized form of Science and they did quite well. But Science came into existence in the minds of ancient men and the idea stuck just enough to spread and it still exists today and still evolves and mutates as people change and grow. There are probably many other memes out there as well. But what I'm telling you is that this is how I explain religion. This is how I interpret the facts of religion. You can believe that it is something entirely different, but that isn't going to change my interpretation because I simply cannot see it from your perspective. I've already been where you say you are, one of the converted, and yet my mind was not satisfied with that as the explanation. For me the meme conclusion is the only one that makes any sense at all and you can't ask me to change my mind any more than I can ask you to change yours. And like I've always said, you do whatever you have to do to make sense of existence. Just keep in mind that not everyone agrees with your version of reality.

I like this version of meme theory. It regards a meme as something neutral rather than negative. It neatly side steps questions like is their a meme for believing in memes because it can say yes, so what. Of course if there is a meme for believing in memes it is only a kind of illusion that you accept it because it makes sense, you accept it because the meme that causes you to accept it is successful. Unless you want to make making sense or seeming to one of the features of a successful meme. Anyway it seems much more valid than the kind of versions of meme theory that would exclude say science from being a meme.

[gary_s]

I like this version of meme theory. It regards a meme as something neutral rather than negative. It neatly side steps questions like is their a meme for believing in memes because it can say yes, so what. Of course if there is a meme for believing in memes it is only a kind of illusion that you accept it because it makes sense, you accept it because the meme that causes you to accept it is successful. Unless you want to make making sense or seeming to one of the features of a successful meme. Anyway it seems much more valid than the kind of versions of meme theory that would exclude say science from being a meme.

Thank you, Moonwood. I appreciate your intellectual analysis in light of recent commentary. And I agree with your evaluation, too. I could very well be following a meme of making sense. Who's to say we must make sense of things? I acknowledge there's no way to objectively know my opinion is true, but this is the way that I've come to organize the information I do have into a workable theory, as you say. And I'm glad you regarded it as neutral because that's exactly how I see it. I could be completely wrong and if I am, I am fooling myself with this meme of making sense.

I later thought of some not so nice memes, such as the meme of nationalism and it got me to wondering if any meme is truly good or truly bad. I suppose it all depends on your perspective. For Aryan Germans, the meme of nationalism wasn't so bad at all, but for them the meme of social liberalism was revolting.

[mitchellmckain]

I like this version of meme theory. It regards a meme as something neutral rather than negative. It neatly side steps questions like is their a meme for believing in memes because it can say yes, so what. Of course if there is a meme for believing in memes it is only a kind of illusion that you accept it because it makes sense, you accept it because the meme that causes you to accept it is successful. Unless you want to make making sense or seeming to one of the features of a successful meme. Anyway it seems much more valid than the kind of versions of meme theory that would exclude say science from being a meme.

The problem with it is its bogus indulgence in reductionism, just like Dawkins absurd attribution of selfishness to genes and the idea that living things do everything that they do because of what genes "want". The truth is that DNA is just an information storage mechanism and genes are just a means of passing on information to the next generation. Living things do what they do because of what living organisms want and value, NOT because DNA molecules have any wants or values in of themselves. Genes are just PART of a whole living process and that is what this analogy of memes to genes really indicate, which is that when it comes to the human mind, we have a living process going on quite apart from that of the biological one. So don't let this reductionist rhetoric pull the wool over your eyes to say that these memes are like some kind of virus taking control of peoples lives away from them which is just as wrong as the idea that the genes are in charge when it comes to biological organisms. Saying that memes are involved really says absolutely NOTHING other than the fact that human communication media gives us the means to pass on information to the next generation in way that is completely different and apart from the biological one that uses DNA.

[JustJim]

...just like Dawkins (sic) absurd attribution of selfishness to genes and the idea that living things do everything that they do because of what genes "want".

Do you seriously not understand metaphor?

Living things do what they do because of what living organisms want and value...

Bacteria have wants and values? Corn has wants and values?

...NOT because DNA molecules have any wants or values in of themselves. Genes are just PART of a whole living process and that is what this analogy of memes to genes really indicate, which is that when it comes to the human mind, we have a living process going on quite apart from that of the biological one.

I have brown hair and hazel eyes because I want and value those traits, and NOT because of my DNA?

Perhaps you don't understand much about either genetics or memes... just a thought...

Jim