FactsNBiases wrote:This is something that I have been bouncing around in my head for a while. I apologize that this is going to be horribly presented, and odds are some philosopher or theologian has already covered this, but I feel this may be a point if not valid it may be worthy of a discussion.
If I was to grant Christianity, and freedom of will to accept its tenets in some dichotomy of the right path or damnation, I would like to put this out there.
Did I have a choice to be created at all? If my soul is autonomous and is capable of free will, did we "souls" have a say in even entering this cosmic game show to begin with?
FactsNBiases wrote:If free will, in the broadly excepted Christian sense is true, it seems to start at the age of accountability (after the soul has entered the human form). The argument from many is that after "that age" one is responsible for their actions and are responsible for their belief or disbelief. While that fits with a naturalistic understanding of brain development, and the development of social norms and morality, what about the "eternal soul"?
FactsNBiases wrote:In this I am willing to grant the theists position, and even a Christian position, for the sake of argument.
With that said, did I have a say in my souls creation?
FactsNBiases wrote:Did our souls have a choice before being thrust into the womb and sent into the "fallen creation"?
FactsNBiases wrote:Was there a "before life" state of our soul?
FactsNBiases wrote:It seems inescapable that at some point your God must of forced creation of a autonomous soul
It's non-existent. It doesn't exist. That's what Mitch means when he saysFactsNBiases wrote:We cannot continue until we clarify the inception of my "soul". Prior to conception it is some sort of cosmic waiting room hoping the folks do the deed? Or maybe it is at birth where my "soul" animates a screaming baby?
and when he saysMitch wrote:Your soul is your creation and your creation alone. It is the product of the choices you make. If you choose life, goodness, creation and free will then your soul will be free, creative, rich and alive, but if you choose death, evil, destruction and bad habits, then your soul will be enslaved, feeble, corrupt and dead.
and why he clarifies even furtherMitch wrote:I do not believe in a soul or spiritual existence which is given to us. What we are given is existence and life. Our soul or spirit comes from what we do with it.
So... no you – no soul (or spirit). Got it?Mitch wrote:No I do not believe in pre-existence of any sort. 1 Cor 15:44-46 "It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. Thus it is written Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual."
Seriously?!? The first and last things he says to you are:FactsNBiases wrote:Do I understand you correctly that I had no choice to exsist or to not exsist?
(first sentence)Mitch wrote:Nope. It is logically impossible for you to choose whether to exist or not.
(last two sentences).Mitch wrote:But the consent to exist? That is not a logical possibility, for in order to consent to anything you must already exist.
That you were making too much sense (it's hard to imagine you making less sense)? That your typing in this forum was impeding your ability to tank Ragnaros? That it's a bad idea to sniff super glue while typing?FactsNBiases wrote:I wrote four paragraphs to your very first response but soon realized the problem.
FactsNBiases wrote:We cannot continue until we clarify the inception of my "soul". Prior to conception it is some sort of cosmic waiting room hoping the folks do the deed? Or maybe it is at birth where my "soul" animates a screaming baby?
FactsNBiases wrote: Either scenario, if the soul is what makes me, I "soul" had no choice to participate.
FactsNBiases wrote: God just throws me in?
FactsNBiases wrote: Only choice is to accept the rules or forfeit?
FactsNBiases wrote:If this was basketball it is play with fingers crossed and hope you got it right or play and loose the game? How about not to play at all?
FactsNBiases wrote:Why would a god that cares so much about freedom of choice to love him or burn, not give the same choice at the souls creation?
FactsNBiases wrote:Is it sound to accept that dichotomy instead of at least questioning the souls very exsistence and it's subsequent free will prior to human form?
FactsNBiases wrote:Do I understand you correctly that I had no choice to exsist or to not exsist?
FactsNBiases wrote:Granting you a lot even accepting for the sake of argument of a non physical soul.
Rhino wrote:I seem to remember my foster father referring to the Chamber of Guf. In one of his sermons out the soul.
VickiRW wrote:A lot of this depends on how you define free will. Have you read any Dennett on the subject? I generally think we don't have free will - at least as it is commonly understood - and Christianity does seem to have a confused view on the subject. The question of free will in heaven, for example, seems problematic to me as well.
VickiRW wrote:The question of free will prior to existence is interesting. I don't see how any definition of free will could apply to something that doesn't exist materially. Ideas (as in beauty, justice, etc) don't exist materially and the question of whether or not they have free will doesn't make sense.
VickiRW wrote:I don't see how any definition of free will could apply to something that doesn't exist materially. Ideas (as in beauty, justice, etc) don't exist materially and the question of whether or not they have free will doesn't make sense. When I say that a rock doesn't have a free will, I can be saying something about the reality of the nature of the rock.
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