Sex, Religion and Morality

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Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Richard_C » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:58 am

Why is sex often made an very important issue in morality? I'm not talking about faithfulness to one's partner or spouse or family stability because of children or any other reason. Those are additional concerns that have instead to do with honesty, reliability, good parenting etc.

In some cases, I prefer a return to the Hebrew/Mosaic law's rules about sexuality that in many cases only has to do with the financial and family considerations. Of course, there were exceptions, such as the law's horrific punishment of homosexuality. And I would obviously spurn its idea that sexually-assualted women should no longer be considered available for marriage.

The Mosaic law clearly has a crude idea of women. In spite of this, though, there's a good lesson to be learned from that law's understanding that sex should be left to practical considerations.

So how did sex become a concern of morality, beyond just social-role considerations? By New Testament times, it clearly had. Or at least those roles did not start out as clearly defined as the law assumed. Instead, maybe those roles were expected to be created by the individuals concerned, but even that makes the concern more about morality and says nothing about practicality.

Unlike other sorts of morality, there is no justification for many of the sexuality rules of religion. Well, a justification other than they come from religion. God said so, so of course it must have practical consequences. :wink:

Another thing I keep thinking about is why does sexual orientation get even more concern? You'd think some religious people were worried that people they are attracted to might not be attracted to them. Horrors!
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby gary_s » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:30 pm

I think sexual mores have more to do with culture than religion. It gets blended with religion, but I think there are expectations there that aren't necessarily rooted in religion.
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:17 pm

If you are looking at the Old Testament attitude to homosexuality I think you have to start by looking at the economic factors. This was a culture where economic survival depended on having children and infant mortality was high so almost everyone was married. STIs were rife and a lot of the Mosaic laws are about how to deal with them. In that context any man having anal sex with another man which is what I think the law condemns would be exposing his wife to the risk of infection. I suspect there are similar concerns behind the pre-occupation with virginity. It's not unlike the advice we'd give to teenagers today not to assume they can't catch anything off a virgin - but they had no condoms in those days.

The laws on rape seem to me to be groping towards justice and to be at least attempting to look at things from both side even though they do seem biased by today's standards. I think this fits in with what gary says.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about the New Testament but I do think later Christian teaching was influenced by a number of extra-biblical sources especially various Greek thinkers.
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Keep The Reason » Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:37 pm

Moonwood the Hare wrote:In that context any man having anal sex with another man which is what I think the law condemns would be exposing his wife to the risk of infection.


Why only with men? What, are women's rectums risk free? Does' god know something about those cute bottoms that Moses did not?
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:16 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:
Moonwood the Hare wrote:In that context any man having anal sex with another man which is what I think the law condemns would be exposing his wife to the risk of infection.


Why only with men? What, are women's rectums risk free? Does' god know something about those cute bottoms that Moses did not?

It's an interesting point. Did you ever read Joseph Heller's God Knows? There's a passage in there where Bathsheba asks David if he wants to fuck her in the ass and then says that's so disgusting they don't even have a law against it. Anyway I would think it was covered by the general sanctions against adultery which would have the same consequences.
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Keep The Reason » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:36 am

Moonwood the Hare wrote:It's an interesting point. Did you ever read Joseph Heller's God Knows? There's a passage in there where Bathsheba asks David if he wants to fuck her in the ass and then says that's so disgusting they don't even have a law against it. Anyway I would think it was covered by the general sanctions against adultery which would have the same consequences.


I'll bet plenty of Hebrew nomads ass-fucked their wives without breaking any Mosaic laws, including the adultery law you seem to think covers non-adulterous behaviors.
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby mitchellmckain » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:21 pm

Richard_C wrote:Why is sex often made an very important issue in morality?

Sex is a central concern of morality for several reasons. First is because it is a desire whose primary object is another person, and so without very careful guidelines and limitations it has the same essential morality as canabalism. Second is because it primary biological function means that it is intimately involved in the life of the children it produces. Third is because our biology includes triggers that make control over sexual behavior nontrivial. The first and second reasons means that there are unavoidable questions of social propriety. When do we have the right to engage another person in such an activity? That is a question that any functional society has to address. Because of the third reason, simply obtaining permission from the other person is not a simple matter. When does that permission need to obtained and under what circumstances? Many societites have concluded that this should not simply be left to a person's ability to seduce others without any responsibilities for the consequences. Furthermore, many societies have not found it to be simply a matter of the permission of the other person alone, for the second reason above means that a person may be involved whose permission cannot be obtained. What gives us the right to inflict life upon someone else? Is it not reasonable that a community might set conditions concerning when that might be justifiable? And then also adding another person to the community is something that can effect everyone, so perhaps it is not so far fetched that the rest of the community might have something to say about whether that ok and under what conditions.
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby gary_s » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:53 am

Hey, Mitch. What happened to you not replying directly to what other members post? Yeah, I didn't think that would last very long. :smt005
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Richard_C » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:23 am

Moonwood the Hare wrote:If you are looking at the Old Testament attitude to homosexuality I think you have to start by looking at the economic factors. This was a culture where economic survival depended on having children and infant mortality was high so almost everyone was married. STIs were rife and a lot of the Mosaic laws are about how to deal with them. In that context any man having anal sex with another man which is what I think the law condemns would be exposing his wife to the risk of infection. I suspect there are similar concerns behind the pre-occupation with virginity. It's not unlike the advice we'd give to teenagers today not to assume they can't catch anything off a virgin - but they had no condoms in those days.

The laws on rape seem to me to be groping towards justice and to be at least attempting to look at things from both side even though they do seem biased by today's standards. I think this fits in with what gary says.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about the New Testament but I do think later Christian teaching was influenced by a number of extra-biblical sources especially various Greek thinkers.
In the New Testament, the commands about sex are for an undefined "fornication." I suppose this could be the same as what the Mosaic law intended, but usually more meaning is attached to the term.

Was the prohibition against homosexuality really only about passing on an STD to a man's wife. He could get an STD from his new wife and pass it on to his old wife. The problem wouldn't go away. Furthermore, when did the Mosaic law ever on any other occasion make provision specifically for women's health? And how did this concern about STDs get translated into New Testament times, when not all men were expected to have wives and homosexuality was simply called "against nature"?
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Richard_C » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:25 am

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Keep The Reason wrote:
Moonwood the Hare wrote:In that context any man having anal sex with another man which is what I think the law condemns would be exposing his wife to the risk of infection.


Why only with men? What, are women's rectums risk free? Does' god know something about those cute bottoms that Moses did not?

It's an interesting point. Did you ever read Joseph Heller's God Knows? There's a passage in there where Bathsheba asks David if he wants to fuck her in the ass and then says that's so disgusting they don't even have a law against it. Anyway I would think it was covered by the general sanctions against adultery which would have the same consequences.
What does anything about adultery have to do with acts within marriage?
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Richard_C » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:49 am

mitchellmckain wrote:
Richard_C wrote:Why is sex often made an very important issue in morality?

Sex is a central concern of morality for several reasons. First is because it is a desire whose primary object is another person, and so without very careful guidelines and limitations it has the same essential morality as canabalism. Second is because it primary biological function means that it is intimately involved in the life of the children it produces. Third is because our biology includes triggers that make control over sexual behavior nontrivial. The first and second reasons means that there are unavoidable questions of social propriety. When do we have the right to engage another person in such an activity? That is a question that any functional society has to address. Because of the third reason, simply obtaining permission from the other person is not a simple matter. When does that permission need to obtained and under what circumstances? Many societites have concluded that this should not simply be left to a person's ability to seduce others without any responsibilities for the consequences. Furthermore, many societies have not found it to be simply a matter of the permission of the other person alone, for the second reason above means that a person may be involved whose permission cannot be obtained. What gives us the right to inflict life upon someone else? Is it not reasonable that a community might set conditions concerning when that might be justifiable? And then also adding another person to the community is something that can effect everyone, so perhaps it is not so far fetched that the rest of the community might have something to say about whether that ok and under what conditions.
I never heard of consensual cannabalism. There are plenty of other activities that involve other people. By what right are two persons in society are responsible to the will of the rest of society? Society is not a magical, godlike entity. Seduction involves responsible consent; otherwise it's more than seduction. Any attempt to deny the individuals involved the power to make these choices themselves goes beyond personal responsibility into politics.

Why do you say sometimes obtaining permission is not a simple matter? I don't know what you mean. If you're referring to any resulting offspring, there matters of sex that have no chance of producing offspring. Also, the parents are the ones with the equipment to produce offspring; it is their choice when to use it. A person that is the result of an activity obviously is not around to have a say before he or she is produced. No one else is involved in the activity.

That brings me to my next question: What does the community have to do with it? How did it suddenly show up? We weren't even talking about them. Are you saying that all babies are the property of the community until some special date?

Finally, a new person does affect everyone. Why would that require their permission? Just about anything can affect everyone else. Life is not efficiently structured by collective, deliberate choices. Think of the implications that would have for everything else.
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:13 am

Richard_C wrote:What does anything about adultery have to do with acts within marriage?

If you contract an STI as a result of an adulterous act, whether with a man or a woman, you can pass it on to your partner - and in those days gonorrhea which is what we would be talking about was a killer.
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:21 am

Keep The Reason wrote:
Moonwood the Hare wrote:It's an interesting point. Did you ever read Joseph Heller's God Knows? There's a passage in there where Bathsheba asks David if he wants to fuck her in the ass and then says that's so disgusting they don't even have a law against it. Anyway I would think it was covered by the general sanctions against adultery which would have the same consequences.


I'll bet plenty of Hebrew nomads ass-fucked their wives without breaking any Mosaic laws, including the adultery law you seem to think covers non-adulterous behaviors.

Sorry I missed this. No you were asking why would people be barred from having anal sex with a man and not with a woman. I was saying any kind of extra-marital sex would be barred. In this culture everyone would be married so homosexual acts would be extra-marital almost by definition. You have to remember that what you are dealing with here is mostly case law and the case of a man having sex with another man would be a married man having a bit on the side. It happens now so I suppose it would have happened then. The other use of homosexual sex would be in cases of conquest where it was done as a way of showing dominance but I don't think that is what the Torah condemns though I could be wrong on that one.
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Keep The Reason » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:20 am

Moonwood the Hare wrote:Sorry I missed this. No you were asking why would people be barred from having anal sex with a man and not with a woman. I was saying any kind of extra-marital sex would be barred. In this culture everyone would be married so homosexual acts would be extra-marital almost by definition. You have to remember that what you are dealing with here is mostly case law and the case of a man having sex with another man would be a married man having a bit on the side. It happens now so I suppose it would have happened then. The other use of homosexual sex would be in cases of conquest where it was done as a way of showing dominance but I don't think that is what the Torah condemns though I could be wrong on that one.


What we're supposed to be dealing with here is a claim that this book represents a god dealing with humans. The argument that the god proscribes anal sex with men outside of marriage but doesn't proscribe anal sex with women inside marriage but also allows multiple wives (hence would spread STIs anyway) supports these two options:

1. The god in question didn't know what the fuck he was talking about and that's pretty much a gamestopper argument agaist him being a god, or,

2. The book was written by men who didn't know what the fuck they were talking about either, but that's because they were ignorant humans.

In a way, 1 & 2 are the same thing.
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Re: Sex, Religion and Morality

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:58 am

Keep The Reason wrote:
Moonwood the Hare wrote:Sorry I missed this. No you were asking why would people be barred from having anal sex with a man and not with a woman. I was saying any kind of extra-marital sex would be barred. In this culture everyone would be married so homosexual acts would be extra-marital almost by definition. You have to remember that what you are dealing with here is mostly case law and the case of a man having sex with another man would be a married man having a bit on the side. It happens now so I suppose it would have happened then. The other use of homosexual sex would be in cases of conquest where it was done as a way of showing dominance but I don't think that is what the Torah condemns though I could be wrong on that one.


What we're supposed to be dealing with here is a claim that this book represents a god dealing with humans. The argument that the god proscribes anal sex with men outside of marriage but doesn't proscribe anal sex with women inside marriage but also allows multiple wives (hence would spread STIs anyway) supports these two options:

1. The god in question didn't know what the fuck he was talking about and that's pretty much a gamestopper argument agaist him being a god, or,

2. The book was written by men who didn't know what the fuck they were talking about either, but that's because they were ignorant humans.

In a way, 1 & 2 are the same thing.

Why would multiple wives spread STIs if the wives were virgins when they married as the Torah says they should be? Am I missing something here?
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