Current State Of The Forum

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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:19 pm

Patrick Star wrote:Those are all valid points, but don't you agree that part of what drives Christian fears is a nation that is deaf to their concerns for free practice of religion?


Yes, but that doesn't make it true. Many of them are also are fearful of Hell. Far too many American Christians actually believe they are the most discriminated against group in the USA. Millions of them actually believe there was (and still is) a "war on Christmas". None of this fearmongering is true.

Now, I get it that because they believe it, it has the same practical effect of being true, but I would argue that Trump VASTLY benefited from these engines of propaganda and his facile ability to leverage them. In fact, the endless drive to make people fear Hillary was ALSO a huge part of it, and she's primarily a nondescript political wonk who does the work (and doesn't fucking golf every 16 hours).

There was literally nothing scary about Hillary at all; she was no more or less corrupt than any of another 1,000 politicians, whereas Trump is vastly more corrupt than any 1,000 of the MOST corrupt politicians you could find, all put together. She never ran a child sex ring under a pizza joint, she's never murdered anyone or had them murdered, she didn't "sell 20% of our uranium to Russia" she didn't secretly lie about Benghazi -- none of that stuff is true, despite investigation after investigation after investigation. This "fear" stuff is amplified a billion-fold with the radical right wing, most of whom also happen to be radical Christian nutjobs. With them you don't need vast sums of money because they are gullible and swallow any nonsense with almost zero critical thinking, plus they are amplified in their tribalism. These are precisely the "useful mechanisms" that have made reli8gions so pervasive, insidious and at the root of many empires throughout history.

This will relate to the mistaken idea that he won with "far less money" which you bring up next.

No, I don't think my metaphor is inaccurate at all. You stated a number of true things, but you are not focusing on one of the most important ones. Donald J. Trump won the election DESPITE more and better corporate money from almost every other person running against him!


It's inaccurate because you're not figuring in the vast amounts of free publicity he garnered by being completely outrageous and peeling back the thin veneer that gave shadow to the legions slimy racists and bigots we often suspected were there all along, but who were afraid to poke their heads up into the light until the advent of Trump gave them protection. Remember, his base is around 35-40% and nothing he does will move that needle very much. When you have a built in audience of nearly half your supporters willing to follow you even if (and I'm using Trump's own words here) "he went onto 5th Ave with a gun and shot and killed someone and they still would follow him" -- you don't need much money.

It's been estimated by experts that Trump got over a billion dollars of absolutely free publicity-- in short, where Clinton had to buy coverage, like most politicians, Trump needed none of that. Trump also had the Mercers behind him, and who are super massively wealthy, PLUS he had legions of Russian story-planters working social media and creating fake news stories that you actually could NOT buy, even if you were super wealthy. Trump's goal is twofold: Erase the Obama legacy (this is rooted in his racism), and, before even that, it's to feather his already opulent nest.

Trump's bromance with Putin will be shown to have its deepest affections in the sanctions placed upon Russia which effectively killed Exxon's pending deal of half a trillion dollars to mine northern Russia's oil fields. Putin desperately wants that deal, because of the vast fortunes it would bring him. Trump owes Putin / Russia / oligarchs money "bigly" as he murdered all trust with American banks years ago (because he is a grifter, nothing more) plus he'll get a sweet slice of that oil pie as well once the deal goes through. This is why he named Rex Tillerson, ex-Exxon/Mobile CEO to Secretary of State-- Tillerson was a cornerstone of the deal when it all fell apart when Putin invaded the Ukraine and Obama slapped them with sanctions.

You watch -- if Trump doesn't lift those sanctions, it will be an all out war against him by the forces that put him in office in the first place.

While you may consider this summary to be "conspiracy theory" stuff, it's all demonstrable, and, after all, the Special Investigator to Trump isn't a fantasy, it's a real and likely to be bloody look at Trump and his dealings with Russia.

I'm not naive about political mechanisms, and without meaning it negatively, I think your assessment is pretty much naive. Corporate money in politics is not an empty assertion, billionaires backing Trump is not an empty assertion, Trump's warm relations with Russia and his endless defense of Putin is not an empty assertion, his displeasure at having been forced to levy more sanctions against them is not an empty assertion, Russia helping him win the presidency is not only not an empty assertion, it's being proven that it includes a fairly wide swath of Trump supporters and friend and family, from Flynn (both Snr and Jnr), to Manafort, to Kushner to Trump's own son Donny Jr. None of this is fabrication, it's all demonstrable fact. What's missing is the legal case and trial to confirm it, but that's a matter of time.

Trump technically won with the tiniest of majorities within only the electoral college, and while Hillary was a terrible candidate, his human molotov cocktail of a campaign, his cheating by colluding with foreign governments, and his realization that right wingers don't have an ounce of integrity or honor within them --hence the attack on a Gold Star family, the pussy grabbing, the adultery and serial trophy wives, the n"I wanna fuck my daughter", the constant racist commentary, the endless lying, the misogyny and the populist nationalism is all swept away and in some instances actually helped put him over the top (primarily the racism and misogyny).

And we gotta deal with this relatively large slice of American people who are completely okay with their leader, even if he allies in subterfuge with our longest held enemy, a nation that wants to see us topple and would do almost anything to get that accomplished.

I made this FB post yesterday, and it holds true here:

Here's irony for you. Since the Russian Revolution in 1905, 112 years ago, Russia has been trying to get ownership of the USA.
But they never could. They couldn't do it economically. They couldn't do it militarily. They couldn't do it with nukes. They couldn't do it with spies. They couldn't do it with the space race. They couldn't do it with hegemony. They couldn't do it with communism.

You know how they finally succeeded, and with whom?

Right wing Republicans.

Irony Supreme.
Last edited by Keep The Reason on Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Rian » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:23 pm

You know, KTR, I've given you the benefit of the doubt for SO many years, but I think I finally need to wise up a bit and give you a little less. Given your constant (and escalating) diatribes against religious people, I think that you're not above a little purposeful misrepresentation. It's very hard for me to conclude that, because honesty is so important to me and I want to believe that others are just as honest, but I've come to that conclusion now about you. You are clearly a smart person, and surely couldn't have forgotten that the vast majority of the time, there were TWO moderators - an atheist and a Christian - working together in the CL, and that the whole premise behind it was that there would be a moderator from each side.

It's not the "crime of the century". Talk about getting in a "high dudgeon"!! I think YOU need to relax and get a grip.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:29 pm

Rian wrote:You know, KTR, I've given you the benefit of the doubt for SO many years, but I think I finally need to wise up a bit and give you a little less. Given your constant (and escalating) diatribes against religious people, I think that you're not above a little purposeful misrepresentation. It's very hard for me to conclude that, because honesty is so important to me and I want to believe that others are just as honest, but I've come to that conclusion now about you. You are clearly a smart person, and surely couldn't have forgotten that the vast majority of the time, there were TWO moderators - an atheist and a Christian - working together in the CL, and that the whole premise behind it was that there would be a moderator from each side.

It's not the "crime of the century". Talk about getting in a "high dudgeon"!! I think YOU need to relax and get a grip.


I didn't forget it was once moderated by two people (though I'd forgotten it was marcus), what I said here was you moderate it now BECAUSE THE OTHER TWO ARE GONE. If you think that I actually need to "misrepresent" your CL history, well, that's just pah-thetic. Yeah, I really need to misrepresent the CL history to "score points". Because... reasons.

Welcome back. Hilarity ensues.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:57 pm

humanguy wrote:I'm on the road starting tomorrow (AAAH!), but I want to attempt to make myself as clear and simple as possible. Here I go. I want to try to understand Christians as human beings, as I do every human being, and I want to try to show Christians how to understand atheists the same way. My vision, if I may be so bold as to call it that, is to achieve a mutual understanding between us, atheist and Christian, on as many levels as we could possibly come together on, and ideally learn some things from each other, as I have here on this forum. If we could do that I think much good would come from it, but if we continue to fight like tribe against tribe (Lawrence of Arabia) I can't see anything positive resulting from that. Could anyone?

I know I've just set myself up for an atheist firing squad, but that's how I think and I stand firm on it.


See that last line? That's how hg perceives this whole thing. That atheists are out to get him for being such a fair-minded guy. This is a tactic as well-- you float something like that so when someone has a critical response to it, you can say, "see? They immediately shot me!"

My complaint with your claims here is that you don't actually do what you claim you do; at least, you don't do it with any particular consistency (yes, you do it some times, but so what? We all do it some times.)

What you miss in this noble goal is that time after time, it generally begins this way for all of us. A new person comes in and we feel each other out. Then come the battle lines.

My perception of these types of forums is that never do theists EVER come into these discussions with anything new or remotely compelling. Every one of the theists, without exception, starts in with the presuppositionalism, the empty assertions, the lack of demonstration, the sliding morality that is presented as immovable, the endless claims of special communications, the blaming of those who don't get the special message, the litany of roasted old chestnut arguments that have been dismantled time and again, and the utter inability to see past their own flaws of logic. Once we get to know one another in these tribal silos, it's just an endless game of wash, rinse and repeat.

Add to that this other fact: Most of the atheists, myself included, were once theists themselves and KNOW what the doctrines present; we KNOW what it's like to believe and hold faith and so on -- though we are told "we really didn't do it right" time and time again.

But the flip side is rarely as true. Rarely are theists once-upon-a-time atheists. They claim to have "faith crises" now and again, but never have they fully abdicated ALL religious belief for any period of time. They almost to a person were raised in religion, have held that religion, and developed the best arguments they can to defend that religion. We know what it is like to be them. They rarely know what it is like to be atheist (though it's fun to point out how they really ARE atheists, in that they dismiss every other religions validity except their own).

So "getting to know them as people" here? On a forum where we bash these positions against one another? That is how you "get to know them as humans"? Because that's a failed mission you've put yourself on. You aren't going to find too many who expound on themselves as individuals outside of the context of their religious beliefs -- again read the title of the forum.

You know what I've learned about people here? Precious little that's positive. Moonwood's a walking encyclopedia of obscure books and tracts by people almost no one here has even heard of, let alone read (and he's by far the most educated poster here). Tim O'Neiil has a hard on for biblical history and that's all he talks about in his battles with SEG. SEG is an Aussie who cuts and pastes from other websites and occasionally travels to the USA on vacation. SimplyMe is the angry atheist who hasn't yet processed out the anger. Clare is a dingbat Roman Catholic who believes in people having death bed visions, plus she sock puppets and uses deceptive tactics. cleve is a dingbat. Chapabel is a right wing gun loving Christian hypocrite. kjw is a Jehovah's Witness dingbat who has nothing but weird ideas. Rian likes "Lord of the Rings" and "Dr. Who"; she doesn't believe in evolution, and uses tactics to argue just like you do. Aaron devolves into incoherency and I really know almost nothing about him. captain howdy has great points and the most subversively funny forum handle here, marcus is gentle but I know almost nothing else about him and tend to not even notice him when he's gone or comes back again. Spongebob lives in Alabama or somewhere in the deep south, is surrounded by Christian loons, and has left the building (I heard from him in a pm recently). MitchellMcKain has left for another forum and believes quantum foam proves god and has written some sci-fi novels.

And you know what I think of you; I know you're a musician and also live in the south (I think New Orleans or thereabouts). And yes, anyone can claim they know precious little about me as well. This is after years of sharing the same virtual space with these folks.

You want to learn about religious people as humans? Get off the forum and interact with them directly. Get involved with organizations on both sides and have those conversations. In other words, do something. Get involved, and then share those experiences here. I've said this to you countless times, and you get pissy and mad and act as if I've slit the throat of your spouse.

There. Did the firing squad hurt you too much?
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Rian » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:14 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:
Rian wrote:You know, KTR, I've given you the benefit of the doubt for SO many years, but I think I finally need to wise up a bit and give you a little less. Given your constant (and escalating) diatribes against religious people, I think that you're not above a little purposeful misrepresentation. It's very hard for me to conclude that, because honesty is so important to me and I want to believe that others are just as honest, but I've come to that conclusion now about you. You are clearly a smart person, and surely couldn't have forgotten that the vast majority of the time, there were TWO moderators - an atheist and a Christian - working together in the CL, and that the whole premise behind it was that there would be a moderator from each side.

It's not the "crime of the century". Talk about getting in a "high dudgeon"!! I think YOU need to relax and get a grip.


I didn't forget it was once moderated by two people (though I'd forgotten it was marcus), what I said here was you moderate it now BECAUSE THE OTHER TWO ARE GONE.

That's what you said AFTER I pointed out the misrepresentation.

What you originally said was "Rian moderates it", and that's a misrepresentation. Now it's cleared up.

And funnily enough, when you and SM and DU would try to insult me by saying things like the CL was totally controlled by me, you were actually insulting the ATHEIST moderators, because that meant that they were weak little wimps that couldn't stand up to me. The atheist mods were great people - marcuspnw, SpongeBob and tirtlegrrl - strong, smart, funny, caring, and with a lot of integrity. They certainly were NOT "controlled" by me :roll:

If you think that I actually need to "misrepresent" your CL history, well, that's just pah-thetic. Yeah, I really need to misrepresent the CL history to "score points".

I didn't say anything about scoring points. But you make up a lot of things.

You've had this really hostile and bizarre attitude towards the CL right from the very beginning. It was bordering on irrational. I mean, so what if some people like to talk in a different manner than you do? Why be so hostile towards it? But you always had this strange need to mock and belittle it. Personally, I think that you didn't like an area where people could go to get away from your bully tactics, but who knows? You may not know yourself.

Welcome back. Hilarity ensues.

Another defense mechanism of yours, I guess.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Keep The Reason » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:45 am

Jesus, this is the best you can do?

Fine. I hope you feel better now that this "WOW misrepresentation" I maneuvered for reasons unknown is finally cleared up. Justice prevails at AC&AA.

Phew!

(Yes, ridiculing this ridiculous offshoot is indeed me adopting a tactic as a means to point out this is a true "#nothingburger". Fully loaded. With fries and an icy cold Coke.)
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby cleve » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:57 am

KTR,
If everything you ever said to us was true, what difference would it make to the world ?
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Keep The Reason » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:56 am

cleve wrote:KTR,
If everything you ever said to us was true, what difference would it make to the world ?


I don't know. It's an odd question. How could I know the answer to that? But single individuals have changed the world. Some for the better, some for the worse. Osama bin Laden and 9/11 changed it, so did Gandhi and Martin Luther King. You'd argue Jesus did as well. So did Hitler, and so on.

Nothing I do reaches anywhere near that degree of impact, even remotely, but it can and does happen. And I don't strive for speaking the truth for the benefit of the world so much as I strive for it based on my own moral principles. I am clearly imperfect, but when I get accused of lying like Rian just did over a mere edited / flawed version of CL's history, it violates my sense of fair play. I get it that she thinks the same thing --that by not saying it in granular detail that I was purposely misrepresenting, but that's her sense of me as a person, and her unwillingness to even believe that maybe I made an error; no, it had to be purposeful, willful and conscious deceit. Well, okay- it wasn't but, oh well.

When I post, I do my best to cover all the facts, and do so in direct response to what I'm addressing from others. No one does this perfectly, nor do I, but I sincerely try.

And then get accused of being a windbag.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Clare » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:06 am

Patrick Star wrote:I will defend whomever I believe is correct in a disagreement and sometimes that person is a Christian. I agree with your distaste of bullying. It is despicable in all its forms and there's no need for it. However, there have been occasions where I've seen a person (Christian or atheist) who is behaving just badly enough that they are clearly just below the threshold for civil conversation, and that often tips another into outright hostility. Maybe that's not a real justification but it certainly is a persuasive argument. I believe the member Clare is one of these who has done this and I do not engage in any conversation with her any longer because of it. That's my technique for avoiding bullying; just avoid those who can't or won't behave themselves.


Now, are you going to present a sufficient example(s)?

Keep The Reason wrote:Clare's not much of a bully, she's just an incoherent dingbat who likes to promote some whack-o poem she thinks has relevance. Debating her is useless primarily because she's thoroughly dishonest not so much intellectually but tactically. She'll create sock puppets, she'll delete posts, she'll rewrite shit-- hell, the who forum had to have its methods rewritten because of her lack of integrity (which of course she'll deny). So I too ignore her.


I created one sock-puppet account, which I eventually admitted and apologized to publicly. I was accused of "abusing" the edit and delete function, and I explained how that was not the case here. Done deal. The real reason you and others ignore me is because I call you all out on your bullshit, which none of you like or can handle.


Keep The Reason wrote:Moonwood's a walking encyclopedia of obscure books and tracts by people almost no one here has even heard of, let alone read (and he's by far the most educated poster here). Tim O'Neiil has a hard on for biblical history and that's all he talks about in his battles with SEG. SEG is an Aussie who cuts and pastes from other websites and occasionally travels to the USA on vacation. SimplyMe is the angry atheist who hasn't yet processed out the anger. Clare is a dingbat Roman Catholic who believes in people having death bed visions, plus she sock puppets and uses deceptive tactics. cleve is a dingbat. Chapabel is a right wing gun loving Christian hypocrite. kjw is a Jehovah's Witness dingbat who has nothing but weird ideas. Rian likes "Lord of the Rings" and "Dr. Who"; she doesn't believe in evolution, and uses tactics to argue just like you do. Aaron devolves into incoherency and I really know almost nothing about him. captain howdy has great points and the most subversively funny forum handle here, marcus is gentle but I know almost nothing else about him and tend to not even notice him when he's gone or comes back again. Spongebob lives in Alabama or somewhere in the deep south, is surrounded by Christian loons, and has left the building (I heard from him in a pm recently). MitchellMcKain has left for another forum and believes quantum foam proves god and has written some sci-fi novels.


You're a raging, hateful bigot, hypocrite, and abusive windbag who gets off on hearing yourself talk. I've witnessed you generalize, assume, gloss over, twist, lie, and blow shit out of proportion, etc without shame. You need to control yourself and get a handle on your emotions and thoughts.

Bask as king with your kiss-ass chorus in this troll hole of insanity.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Rian » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:38 am

Keep The Reason wrote:
Patrick Star wrote:There's a reason Christians fear the idea of atheists in control of government. They have 50 years of the Soviet Union, China and North Korea as evidence that the right kind of government could and would oppress them. So that has to be front and center when we address these kinds of issues. Oppression of religion is not the end goal here; it has to be liberty for all, which is nothing the Constitution doesn't already guarantee us all.


It's demonstrably true that all three of your examples were in fact religious, they were just secularly religious -- worship the state, the state is the god in their models--everything else is exactly the same (orthodoxy, punish heresy, us vs. them, etc.). In fact, the methodology used cast established religion as the enemy, which again is a mechanic that religions have gained great success by utilizing: ISIS for instance condemns all religions that are not Islam as heretical and worthy of death. Communism simply made the same decree and they implemented it against "all religions" (except of course, their own). They murder their competition.


Just wanted to quote this interesting little statement from KTR for reference before it got buried ...
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby cleve » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:12 am

Keep The Reason wrote:Moonwood's a walking encyclopedia of obscure books and tracts by people almost no one here has even heard of, let alone read (and he's by far the most educated poster here). Tim O'Neiil has a hard on for biblical history and that's all he talks about in his battles with SEG. SEG is an Aussie who cuts and pastes from other websites and occasionally travels to the USA on vacation. SimplyMe is the angry atheist who hasn't yet processed out the anger. Clare is a dingbat Roman Catholic who believes in people having death bed visions, plus she sock puppets and uses deceptive tactics. cleve is a dingbat. Chapabel is a right wing gun loving Christian hypocrite. kjw is a Jehovah's Witness dingbat who has nothing but weird ideas. Rian likes "Lord of the Rings" and "Dr. Who"; she doesn't believe in evolution, and uses tactics to argue just like you do. Aaron devolves into incoherency and I really know almost nothing about him. captain howdy has great points and the most subversively funny forum handle here, marcus is gentle but I know almost nothing else about him and tend to not even notice him when he's gone or comes back again. Spongebob lives in Alabama or somewhere in the deep south, is surrounded by Christian loons, and has left the building (I heard from him in a pm recently). MitchellMcKain has left for another forum and believes quantum foam proves god and has written some sci-fi novels.

KTR,
When you are unable to hear us as Christians,
It is because you hear us as "the man" (KTR) thinks.
Christians understand that you can't hear us think
("In the spirit of the Lord there is liberty").
We Christians already know you are unable to hear us correctly,
because we are instructed not to think as KTR does.
So we wake up, praying: how can we help KTR?
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Keep The Reason » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:11 am

Rian wrote:Just wanted to quote this interesting little statement from KTR for reference before it got buried ...


I never promoted the communist regimes; I often said they adopt the same maniacal mechanisms that religions utilized and polished to near perfection to control people. Their god, the state, and your god, Yahweh, are not a bit different; actually, there is one important difference: Their god is at least demonstrable and detectable whereas yours is wholly (holy?) undetectable and non-demonstrable. But other than that, it's the exact same model being used, one that I reject.

Again, it would help if some of you would read my signature line.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Keep The Reason » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:12 am

cleve wrote:KTR,
When you are unable to hear us as Christians,
It is because you hear us as "the man" (KTR) thinks.
Christians understand that you can't hear us think
("In the spirit of the Lord there is liberty").
We Christians already know you are unable to hear us correctly,
because we are instructed not to think as KTR does.
So we wake up, praying: how can we help KTR?


Start by being coherent.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby cleve » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:14 am

Keep The Reason wrote:
cleve wrote:KTR,
When you are unable to hear us as Christians,
It is because you hear us as "the man" (KTR) thinks.
Christians understand that you can't hear us think
("In the spirit of the Lord there is liberty").
We Christians already know you are unable to hear us correctly,
because we are instructed not to think as KTR does.
So we wake up, praying: how can we help KTR?


Start by being coherent.

What makes you think I have a need to be coherent?
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby ArchLich » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:32 am

cleve wrote:What makes you think I have a need to be coherent?


Uh... the fact that you're in a place where the primary function you regularly perform involves communication with other people, ergo implying a need to be understood, which requires coherency?
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