Current State Of The Forum

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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Clare » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:19 pm

.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Keep The Reason » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:29 pm

Patrick Star wrote:I'm just genuinely curious about this particular rift because I don't understand it and when I don't understand something I tend to ask a lot of questions.


No problem, you have every right to ask. If you want to see why he does it, look at Clare's response to me regarding humanguy in the post right above the one where you asked this question.

That's what he likes. He likes it when the Christians laud him. He's their teammate, and when you point this out, he responds in anger by saying he's on no one's team. Shortly thereafter, he will then double, triple, and quintillion down doing the same thing over and over.

He especially likes it when Clare blows smoke up his ass. Right after she posted a picture of herself (be it her or not it doesn't matter) some months --or maybe it's more than a year ago now -- he really amped up the flirtations with her.

So in addition to everything else he is -- he's an internet forum creep besides.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Clare » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:35 pm

What I said about you was 100% true.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Keep The Reason » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:49 pm

cleve wrote:What's wrong with Humanguy's claiming to be "human" rather than Christian or Atheist?


Nothing. I'll bet 100 years' salary that everyone who posts on this forum is a human.

hg has claimed to be an atheist in his view of this particular issue. That's fine. That's not dishonest. The problem is not even in his defense of Christians as an atheist (Tim O'Neill does it in terms of supporting a historical Jesus -- there's nothing dishonest about that).

I've already explained the problem with hg. He tasks atheists for even confronting theists at all. Meanwhile, the need to do so is paramount, every bit as required as the US Founding Fathers had a beef with monarchy and wanted a liberal democracy as their form of government. In such a conflict that came about, people were either for the monarchy or they were for a democratic republic. While this was a philosophical debate, you could be on any side, but if you claimed you were for democracy and then relentlessly defended and sided with monarchists, you'd be considered an intellectually dishonest, two-faced numbnut. Sound familiar? Because it should.

But taking the analogy further, if it went to an actual war (we're in a social struggle conflict now, but not a shooting war)? You'd be considered a traitor for doing what hg does. So let's be clear-- we're not at war so it doesn't apply, but try to think about it if we were in a war and someone proclaimed they were one side and yet consistently came down in favor of and in defense of the other side?

Imagine if in WW2 hg was saying, "Those Japanese are fascists and I'm not one of them! But hey, despite them attacking us, let's not confront them-- why don't you just leave them be?"

How do you think that should play out?

What's so dishonest about that?


Already explained.

And when did you become the referee for which "side" he seems to be on at any given point in time?


I'm not the referee. I'm just wiling to confront him on his hypocritical quisling actions. He can be on any side he likes. I'd ally with him if he were in sync with my principles and goals, and I would confront him if he weren't. But if he's going to flip flop back and forth? Then he's untrustworthy and an asshole. Those are the worst people of all, because you ally with them, and then find out they have all they need to stab you in the back when they "flip" to the other side. Fuck that. You ally with that sort of scumbag. I'll just categorize him as a hostile and leave him there.

From another perspective, have you ever considered the possibility that you might be bullying and pressuring him to manifest some of the very traits that you dislike?


Oh please. Grow up. Do you actually think he's so easily bullied that he cannot withstand direct criticism of behavior he selects to engage in? Poor widdle snowfwakes, driwting down siwentwee in da night. If you said that about me, rest assured I'd tell you to fuck off, that I'm not so weak and thin skinned that I need you to warn others that they might be bullying me. Jesus, that's demeaning.

And meanwhile, look who just overtly cast himself as "referee" as to the possibility someone might be bullying and pressuring someone else. Whoops! What a hypocrite you just became.

Let life be your teacher. Let life be our teacher. OK?


It is. It taught me not to ally with double agents. They gain your trust and then stab you in the back and leave you to bleed out in the snow. I prefer to simply expose them and leave them on the couch where they belong.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Clare » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:58 pm

Clare wrote:
Patrick Star wrote:"As I said, he sometime comes across as a Christian advocate, which seems kind of odd to me.


You said:

"I don't understand why HG defends Christians so much unless he actually is one and is only posing here..."

What is he defending us Christians on?


Patrick Star wrote:...I saw that HG had responded on a thread where Aaron asked Moon a question. There were a few responses from atheists that essentially derided him for believing in something silly (which I think is absolutely fair by almost any forum standard). The post was on the open forum, not a PM or in the Christian section, though he did say he wanted Moon to answer the question. HG felt it was unfair for anyone else to even answer, but this seems quite strange since that's never been the format for this forum. People always comment on the open forum, no matter who speaks to whom. He seems to feel compelled to defend people (Christians at least).


This has nothing to do with taking sides. Humanguy basically asked why they couldn't control themselves, and refrain from mockery, and shared his opinion on their responses. Yes, people can make mocking comments if they choose, just as there's no rule a one on one discussion has to be made via PM, but hg can also criticize them for it if he chooses. Does their ridicule have more of a place here than hg's civility? Or, do you they just dislike having another atheist criticize them for anything when they're trying to mock Christians? Otherwise, why would they take it so personally? It's not like he can go into these threads and delete their posts and lock discussions. So, they're just pissed that he would dare to call out another atheist for their sht. And, how is what hg did defending Christians? In what others ways does hg defend us Christians?

Keep The Reason wrote:If you want to see why he does it, look at Clare's response to me regarding humanguy in the post right above the one where you asked this question.

That's what he likes. He likes it when the Christians laud him. He's their teammate, and when you point this out, he responds in anger by saying he's on no one's team. Shortly thereafter, he will then double, triple, and quintillion down doing the same thing over and over.

He especially likes it when Clare blows smoke up his ass. Right after she posted a picture of herself (be it her or not it doesn't matter) some months --or maybe it's more than a year ago now -- he really amped up the flirtations with her.


Look, because you're too entrenched in the tribalism among the atheists here to see or think straight, that is what drives you to say such things. Humanguy and I are just two people who happen to share different beliefs on God, and are capable of criticizing those in the wrong and defending those in the right, regardless of what "side" they're on. If you feel he or I are coming down on atheists too much then take into account that we're on Christian and atheist forum, so there's mainly Christians and atheists. And, there's more active atheists than Christians here to begin with. Even if that wasn't the case, and hg is scolding atheists more, it doesn't mean he's secretly a Christian or is "defending Christians". And, you and others continue to push these accusations without giving any solid examples to back it up. All this is unhealthy thinking and behavior. Seriously.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Patrick Star » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:58 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:No problem, you have every right to ask. If you want to see why he does it, look at Clare's response to me regarding humanguy in the post right above the one where you asked this question.

That's what he likes. He likes it when the Christians laud him. He's their teammate, and when you point this out, he responds in anger by saying he's on no one's team. Shortly thereafter, he will then double, triple, and quintillion down doing the same thing over and over.

He especially likes it when Clare blows smoke up his ass. Right after she posted a picture of herself (be it her or not it doesn't matter) some months --or maybe it's more than a year ago now -- he really amped up the flirtations with her.

So in addition to everything else he is -- he's an internet forum creep besides.


Is this the one?

Humanguy is fair. You're not. Humanguy is rational. You're not. Humanguy knows how to be respectful of others despite having different views. You don't. Humanguy isn't part of the tribalism that goes on here. You are - and every time you and certain other atheists accuse him of being a "quisling" and "Christian enabler" are just repeatedly proving that fact.


If so, she is certainly sticking up for him. Clare seems to see fairness and respect for others in HG and sees the opposite from you. I think this kind of opinion can be skewed. Fairness and respect can exist within a disagreement, but exchanges on this forum often dispense with respect. So it may be that Christians like Clare value someone who shows them respect and kindness more than truth and an intellectual challenge. This isn't a judgement of any kind; it's just an observation. I value respect as well but I don't really want people to hold back on the truth in lieu of it. Of course this doesn't explain his reasoning, unless he just really enjoys being liked by someone. I still think that there's some other aspect to his reasoning because if he is an atheist, as he claims, then he seems to go out of his way to make Christians comfortable and I'd like to understand why.

And for the record, Clare's opinion that your arguments are not rational are nonsensical. And its hilarious that Clare would accuse anyone of tribalism (seriously black pot there). I sometimes believe you go a little more to the extreme than I like to go, but the rationalization is still pretty solid. I'm not just buttering you up; I have no need to do that. There have been plenty of people here whom I've had respect for their reasoning even if I hated their overall affect. I would like to know if that may be part of HG's problem. It seems unthinkable that he actually rejects most of your logical reasoning. Maybe he just values being "nice" a lot more than you do. Kind of difficult to speculate; I wish he would see this and speak up.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby ArchLich » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:25 pm

Dude, humanguy is a pacifist hippy who thinks everyone should just get along with each other and ignore the problems of the world as if they don't exist. Sometimes I wish I could get some of whatever drugs he's on so I can forget how the world is imploding due to ignorance and delusional thought processes, but it's probably for the best that people like me who actually use their brain, recognize reality and promote critical thinking ignore people like him demanding that I stop telling delusional people who brainwash our children to grow up thinking something they have no ability to know exists created an infinite universe and will throw them into an eternal torture chamber if they don't follow the ridiculous, and often immoral laws it told a bunch of people who claimed to have had a direct line of communication to it to write in a book how delusional they are. Christians need to stop infecting our society with their delusions. They can't be allowed to invade our governments and take political power. They can't be allowed to force their bullshit onto people. Delusional people are not reasonable people. Most Christians who are strictly by-the-book would outlaw homosexuality, for example, even though homosexuality cannot be shown to have a negative effect on anyone at all. Many Christians believe their nonsensical belief systems have a place in government, and people like humanguy would be happy to let them have such a place. So, why do us atheists seem to have a problem with him? There's your answer. I personally don't care what Christians believe, as long as they keep it to themselves and leave everyone who doesn't buy into their fairy tales alone, and stop brainwashing their children.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Clare » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:30 pm

Clare wrote:
Patrick Star wrote:"As I said, he sometime comes across as a Christian advocate, which seems kind of odd to me.


You said:

"I don't understand why HG defends Christians so much unless he actually is one and is only posing here..."

What is he defending us Christians on?


Patrick Star wrote:...I saw that HG had responded on a thread where Aaron asked Moon a question. There were a few responses from atheists that essentially derided him for believing in something silly (which I think is absolutely fair by almost any forum standard). The post was on the open forum, not a PM or in the Christian section, though he did say he wanted Moon to answer the question. HG felt it was unfair for anyone else to even answer, but this seems quite strange since that's never been the format for this forum. People always comment on the open forum, no matter who speaks to whom. He seems to feel compelled to defend people (Christians at least).


This has nothing to do with taking sides. Humanguy basically asked why they couldn't control themselves, and refrain from mockery, and shared his opinion on their responses. Yes, people can make mocking comments if they choose, just as there's no rule a one on one discussion has to be made via PM, but hg can also criticize them for it if he chooses. Does their ridicule have more of a place here than hg's civility? Or, do you they just dislike having another atheist criticize them for anything when they're trying to mock Christians? Otherwise, why would they take it so personally? It's not like he can go into these threads and delete their posts and lock discussions. So, they're just pissed that he would dare to call out another atheist for their sht. And, how is what hg did defending Christians? In what others ways does hg defend us Christians?

Patrick Star wrote:And for the record, Clare's opinion that your arguments are not rational are nonsensical.


How so?

Patrick Star wrote:And its hilarious that Clare would accuse anyone of tribalism (seriously black pot there).


I'm the tribalist? How? Someone answer me that. And, I want to see any better response than just "You're a Christian".

Patrick Star wrote:Clare seems to see fairness and respect for others in HG and sees the opposite from you. I think this kind of opinion can be skewed. Fairness and respect can exist within a disagreement, but exchanges on this forum often dispense with respect. So it may be that Christians like Clare value someone who shows them respect and kindness more than truth and an intellectual challenge. This isn't a judgement of any kind; it's just an observation.


It seems? No, it's obvious I see fairness and respect for others in hg and others and KTR doesn't. And, just because "exchanges on this forum often dispense with respect" doesn't mean that they should, and it doesn't lead into the next point about me at all. I value kindness, respect, truth and an intellectual challenge. People disagree all the time. Sometimes they can challenge you, and sometimes not. But, as people it'd be great if we could show each other a basic level of respect and decency. Doesn't mean we don't want to be challenged. This world is fcked up enough because people are terrible to each other. It's not nearly as fcked up because we don't all intellectually challenge each other.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Clare » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:38 pm

Archlich wrote:Many Christians believe their nonsensical belief systems have a place in government, and people like humanguy would be happy to let them have such a place. So, why do us atheists seem to have a problem with him? There's your answer.


Us atheists? You're the only atheist I've seen here who's come up with that so far. To me, that is such a terrible excuse, pulled straight out of your ass, for disliking hg. But, please continue and explain the reasons for why hg "would be happy to let them have such a place".
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Patrick Star » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:48 pm

ArchLich wrote:Dude, humanguy is a pacifist hippy who thinks everyone should just get along with each other and ignore the problems of the world as if they don't exist. Sometimes I wish I could get some of whatever drugs he's on so I can forget how the world is imploding due to ignorance and delusional thought processes, but it's probably for the best that people like me who actually use their brain, recognize reality and promote critical thinking ignore people like him demanding that I stop telling delusional people who brainwash our children to grow up thinking something they have no ability to know exists created an infinite universe and will throw them into an eternal torture chamber if they don't follow the ridiculous, and often immoral laws it told a bunch of people who claimed to have had a direct line of communication to it to write in a book how delusional they are. Christians need to stop infecting our society with their delusions. They can't be allowed to invade our governments and take political power. They can't be allowed to force their bullshit onto people. Delusional people don't think realistically and logically. Most Christians who are strictly by-the-book would outlaw homosexuality, for example, even though homosexuality cannot be shown to have a negative effect on anyone at all. Many Christians believe their nonsensical belief systems have a place in government, and people like humanguy would be happy to let them have such a place. So, why do us atheists seem to have a problem with him? There's your answer. I personally don't care what Christians believe, as long as they keep it to themselves and leave everyone who doesn't buy into their fairy tales alone, and stop brainwashing their children.


I actually like hippies myself. Well, despite the fact that I agree with your assessment of religion, I see a lot of incongruities in your actual argument. For example, you simply cannot say "I personally don't care what Christians believe" and then in the same breath "as long as they keep it to themselves and leave everyone who doesn't buy into their fairy tales alone, and stop brainwashing their children" within the confines of a free and libertarian society. You do see the conflict here, right? We cannot have a free, libertarian society that demands that people are free to pursue their individual beliefs which would include promoting those beliefs and yet restrict them in practicing those beliefs by promoting them and raising their children as such. I like to think about the Amish people to highlight this. Amish ideals are vastly different than us modernists. They teach those ideals to their children. They share them with any "English" who wish to listen. They could not exist in a country like Pakistan or Iran or a lot of other countries. Our Constitutional freedom is what makes their existence possible. Are you saying we should cease allowing that? I don't think you are. What I think you are saying is that we should convince all of the religious people in the US and maybe the world that they are foolish for believing in gods and such. Well, good luck with that. As I said before, such pressure almost always results in more belief. You might get a few converts but don't expect a drastic turnout. All we really have the power to do is to work hard to make sure that the laws of our country represent us as well it represents them, so that the ideals of the religious do not oppress our own ideals. IOW, we should be free to pursue atheistic lives freely and openly just as the Amish pursue their overtly religious lives. I think that is the only rational course of action to take and I think you will agree with that if you take the time to really think it through.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby ArchLich » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:57 pm

Patrick Star wrote:
ArchLich wrote:Dude, humanguy is a pacifist hippy who thinks everyone should just get along with each other and ignore the problems of the world as if they don't exist. Sometimes I wish I could get some of whatever drugs he's on so I can forget how the world is imploding due to ignorance and delusional thought processes, but it's probably for the best that people like me who actually use their brain, recognize reality and promote critical thinking ignore people like him demanding that I stop telling delusional people who brainwash our children to grow up thinking something they have no ability to know exists created an infinite universe and will throw them into an eternal torture chamber if they don't follow the ridiculous, and often immoral laws it told a bunch of people who claimed to have had a direct line of communication to it to write in a book how delusional they are. Christians need to stop infecting our society with their delusions. They can't be allowed to invade our governments and take political power. They can't be allowed to force their bullshit onto people. Delusional people don't think realistically and logically. Most Christians who are strictly by-the-book would outlaw homosexuality, for example, even though homosexuality cannot be shown to have a negative effect on anyone at all. Many Christians believe their nonsensical belief systems have a place in government, and people like humanguy would be happy to let them have such a place. So, why do us atheists seem to have a problem with him? There's your answer. I personally don't care what Christians believe, as long as they keep it to themselves and leave everyone who doesn't buy into their fairy tales alone, and stop brainwashing their children.


I actually like hippies myself. Well, despite the fact that I agree with your assessment of religion, I see a lot of incongruities in your actual argument. For example, you simply cannot say "I personally don't care what Christians believe" and then in the same breath "as long as they keep it to themselves and leave everyone who doesn't buy into their fairy tales alone, and stop brainwashing their children" within the confines of a free and libertarian society. You do see the conflict here, right? We cannot have a free, libertarian society that demands that people are free to pursue their individual beliefs which would include promoting those beliefs and yet restrict them in practicing those beliefs by promoting them and raising their children as such. I like to think about the Amish people to highlight this. Amish ideals are vastly different than us modernists. They teach those ideals to their children. They share them with any "English" who wish to listen. They could not exist in a country like Pakistan or Iran or a lot of other countries. Our Constitutional freedom is what makes their existence possible. Are you saying we should cease allowing that? I don't think you are. What I think you are saying is that we should convince all of the religious people in the US and maybe the world that they are foolish for believing in gods and such. Well, good luck with that. As I said before, such pressure almost always results in more belief. You might get a few converts but don't expect a drastic turnout. All we really have the power to do is to work hard to make sure that the laws of our country represent us as well it represents them, so that the ideals of the religious do not oppress our own ideals. IOW, we should be free to pursue atheistic lives freely and openly just as the Amish pursue their overtly religious lives. I think that is the only rational course of action to take and I think you will agree with that if you take the time to really think it through.


Freedom, from a political viewpoint, is generally defined as being free to do as you please, so long as what you do does not impede the freedoms of others. If they force their belief systems into governmental law, they impede upon the freedoms of those who do not accept their belief systems, which a libertarian society would frown upon. In the case of children: A child's mind is extremely impressionable due to its tendency not to question or test information given to them in the context of a truth or fact. This is why children can easily be fooled into thinking Santa Claus, and the Easter bunny exist. My argument against that insists that children not be swayed to believe in anything that cannot be demonstrably proven to be true/factual, as it is the same thing as brainwashing. That includes atheists who are delusional enough to believe they can know that a god doesn't exist. A human cannot prove a negative, therefore proving that something does not exist is humanly impossible. I hold that children should never be exposed to these things, rather they should be introduced to it once they've reached an age where their minds are more prone to critical thought, and at that time be allowed to choose what they want to believe. Brainwashing children impedes upon their freedom of thought, thus a libertarian society would frown upon it.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Keep The Reason » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:23 pm

Patrick Star wrote:Is this the one?

Humanguy is fair. You're not. Humanguy is rational. You're not. Humanguy knows how to be respectful of others despite having different views. You don't. Humanguy isn't part of the tribalism that goes on here. You are - and every time you and certain other atheists accuse him of being a "quisling" and "Christian enabler" are just repeatedly proving that fact.


If so, she is certainly sticking up for him.


Yeah. I don't mind people sticking up for one another at all, even those on opposite sides. Again, hg's problem is just that he defends Christians, he actively tellsus we should not be interested in their beliefs at all. Yes, he's actually said "Why do you care what 'such and such Christian believes?" as if confronting Christians for their beliefs is somehow off limits to us atheists. and he NEVER says to Christians, "Why don't you just let the atheists believe what they want?" Or if he does, it's painfully rare.

And look don't just go by me. I'm not the only one saying it. Everyone knows it about hg. I am just the one who initally was willing to call him the quisling he is.

Clare seems to see fairness and respect for others in HG and sees the opposite from you. I think this kind of opinion can be skewed. Fairness and respect can exist within a disagreement, but exchanges on this forum often dispense with respect. So it may be that Christians like Clare value someone who shows them respect and kindness more than truth and an intellectual challenge. This isn't a judgement of any kind; it's just an observation. I value respect as well but I don't really want people to hold back on the truth in lieu of it. Of course this doesn't explain his reasoning, unless he just really enjoys being liked by someone. I still think that there's some other aspect to his reasoning because if he is an atheist, as he claims, then he seems to go out of his way to make Christians comfortable and I'd like to understand why.


I make it a point to say to people that I do not have to show their beliefs a teardrop of respect. I do NOT respect Christian beliefs or Judaic beliefs or Hindi beliefs or Muslim beliefs-- I think they are terrible for humanity since we've outgrown our need for them. Believers generally cannot stand to be told their beliefs are not respected because they seem to equate what they believe with who they are. And that's what religion wants, especially Christianity as it plays out in practice. It wants people to think that who they are as people relies on their adherence to the doctrine of the belief system. If you believe in Jesus as your savior and his moral principles, you're a "good person"; if you don't, you're "bound for eternal punishment and Hell" or some such bullshit. And it's not the only religion that does this carrot and the stick bs -- most of them do it. We see countless examples of this when people say, "I cannot believe so and so did something so bad-- after all, they are a Christian!"

And for the record, Clare's opinion that your arguments are not rational are nonsensical.


Yeah, I know. I don't even bother replying to her anymore. It's pointless.

And its hilarious that Clare would accuse anyone of tribalism (seriously black pot there).


What's that you say?? A theist who is a rank hypocrite? Noooo, tell me it isn't so! That's unpossible.

I sometimes believe you go a little more to the extreme than I like to go, but the rationalization is still pretty solid. I'm not just buttering you up; I have no need to do that. There have been plenty of people here whom I've had respect for their reasoning even if I hated their overall affect. I would like to know if that may be part of HG's problem. It seems unthinkable that he actually rejects most of your logical reasoning. Maybe he just values being "nice" a lot more than you do.


He thinks I'm too mean and disrespectful. Part of it is done to shake these theists up. And part of it is valid outrage at the disgusting things religious people do. When they make excuses for slavery which their book of dreams supports for instance. That actually does piss me off. When someone gives me a litany of excuses as to why non-consensual ownership of another human being is acceptable in the bible, I'm done with that person who has a completely dysfunctional moral compass. People who defend that are assholes, period. I don't make them assholes, they make themselves assholes and their primitive book does it. So I come at them full bore.

I'm NOT bowing and currying favor with them anymore. Now, they either put up their claims to demonstration evidence or proof or I will tell them that by not doing so they are purveyors of bullshit. And that doesn't mean I hate them or want them dead, it means they are either distributing bullshit or lack the education to detect it and so are "bullshit Marys" carrying this religious mind virus around and spreading it like bullshit, which is an apt metaphor since bullshit is such potent fertilizer it eventually grows gardens of fanatics. It's still bullshit, it's still something to evolve beyond if we're to survive (unless they all become Jains, and then I'd be perfectly content with their theism), and just because they kick and scream and cry and whine being told their gods are mythical imaginations doesn't mean that I'm not ready willing and able to tell them so.

And if hg doesn't like it, too bad.

Kind of difficult to speculate; I wish he would see this and speak up.


Oh. He will. After all, I've attacked Clare. I'm sure there's blood in his eye the moment the creep reads this.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Clare » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:27 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:But taking the analogy further, if it went to an actual war (we're in a social struggle conflict now, but not a shooting war)? You'd be considered a traitor for doing what hg does. So let's be clear-- we're not at war so it doesn't apply, but try to think about it if we were in a war and someone proclaimed they were one side and yet consistently came down in favor of and in defense of the other side?

Imagine if in WW2 hg was saying, "Those Japanese are fascists and I'm not one of them! But hey, despite them attacking us, let's not confront them-- why don't you just leave them be?"

How do you think that should play out?


I'd think a clearer analogy would be if you were at war, and hg was trying to say there's no need to resort to barbarism and dehumanization, because despite whatever conflict you're in, you've lost the moral high-ground when you start freely committing war crimes.

Keep The Reason wrote:
cleve wrote:And, when did you become the referee for which "side" he seems to be on at any given point in time?


I'm not the referee. I'm just wiling to confront him on his hypocritical quisling actions. He can be on any side he likes. I'd ally with him if he were in sync with my principles and goals, and I would confront him if he weren't. But if he's going to flip flop back and forth? Then he's untrustworthy and an asshole. Those are the worst people of all, because you ally with them, and then find out they have all they need to stab you in the back when they "flip" to the other side. Fuck that. You ally with that sort of scumbag. I'll just categorize him as a hostile and leave him there.


Or, maybe hg's just willing to confront you on your hypocrisy, bigotry, and bullshit. And, you can't handle it. If he's untrustworthy, a flip-flopper, and doesn't align with your principles, then your goals and principles are less about ideology and belief, and more about being a prick to the other side. It's all about fighting the enemy, and all of that shit about truth and integrity is a smokescreen for your real intentions.

Keep The Reason wrote:He especially likes it when Clare blows smoke up his ass. Right after she posted a picture of herself (be it her or not it doesn't matter) some months --or maybe it's more than a year ago now -- he really amped up the flirtations with her.

So in addition to everything else he is -- he's an internet forum creep besides.


That's a lie. Hg never even commented on my appearance.

Keep The Reason wrote:I don't mind people sticking up for one another at all, even those on opposite sides.


That's another lie because you have taken hg to task when he does.

Keep The Reason wrote:Again, hg's problem is just that he defends Christians, he actively tells us we should not be interested in their beliefs at all. Yes, he's actually said "Why do you care what 'such and such Christian believes?" as if confronting Christians for their beliefs is somehow off limits to us atheists."


Hg asking an atheist why they care about about what a Christian believes is the same as telling them that they "should not be interested in their beliefs at all, and confronting Christians for their beliefs is "off limits"?... Do you ever think that it might not just be the act of confronting, or questioning, a Christian about their beliefs, but might also have something to do with the way an atheist confronts Christians? Or, even their motivations behind it?

Keep The Reason wrote:And, he NEVER says to Christians, "Why don't you just let the atheists believe what they want?" Or if he does, it's painfully rare.


If he did would you say he's telling us Christians that we "should not be interested in their beliefs at all", and confronting atheists is "off limits"? Would you criticize him for it? If you did, by sticking up for us would you accept the labels "quisling" and "enabler" from your cronies? And, he hasn't asked a Christian that from what I've seen because most of the Christians on this forum don't attack the atheists here or their views in the same way, or as often.

Keep The Reason wrote:And look don't just go by me. I'm not the only one saying it. Everyone knows it about hg.


Yet you and your kiss-ass chorus still haven't given sufficient examples of exactly how hg "enables" and is "defending" Christians. Shocker.

Keep The Reason wrote:I make it a point to say to people that I do not have to show their beliefs a teardrop of respect.


No shit. But, it's about how you generalize, assume, and lack basic human decency towards most, if not all, religious people simply because there's certain ones who hold beliefs you abhor. It's to the point where it seems you see most, if not all, religious people as having the same beliefs. That makes it just about impossible to communicate with you because you're trying to tell me what I or someone else believes.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby Clare » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:34 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:But taking the analogy further, if it went to an actual war (we're in a social struggle conflict now, but not a shooting war)? You'd be considered a traitor for doing what hg does. So let's be clear-- we're not at war so it doesn't apply, but try to think about it if we were in a war and someone proclaimed they were one side and yet consistently came down in favor of and in defense of the other side?

Imagine if in WW2 hg was saying, "Those Japanese are fascists and I'm not one of them! But hey, despite them attacking us, let's not confront them-- why don't you just leave them be?"

How do you think that should play out?


I'd think a clearer analogy would be if you were at war, and hg was trying to say there's no need to resort to barbarism and dehumanization, because despite whatever conflict you're in, you've lost the moral high-ground when you start freely committing war crimes.

Keep The Reason wrote:
cleve wrote:And, when did you become the referee for which "side" he seems to be on at any given point in time?


I'm not the referee. I'm just wiling to confront him on his hypocritical quisling actions. He can be on any side he likes. I'd ally with him if he were in sync with my principles and goals, and I would confront him if he weren't. But if he's going to flip flop back and forth? Then he's untrustworthy and an asshole. Those are the worst people of all, because you ally with them, and then find out they have all they need to stab you in the back when they "flip" to the other side. Fuck that. You ally with that sort of scumbag. I'll just categorize him as a hostile and leave him there.


Or, maybe hg's just willing to confront you on your hypocrisy, bigotry, and bullshit. And, you can't handle it. If he's untrustworthy, a flip-flopper, and doesn't align with your principles, then your goals and principles are less about ideology and belief, and more about being a prick to the other side. It's all about fighting the enemy, and all of that shit about truth and integrity is a smokescreen for your real intentions.

Keep The Reason wrote:He especially likes it when Clare blows smoke up his ass. Right after she posted a picture of herself (be it her or not it doesn't matter) some months --or maybe it's more than a year ago now -- he really amped up the flirtations with her.

So in addition to everything else he is -- he's an internet forum creep besides.


That's a lie. Hg never even commented on my appearance. The only forum member who's come the closest to "flirting" with me is Archlich:

"Intelligence definitely does not dictate physical appearance SM. You're absolutely right. Though I'm not gonna turn into a hormonal adolescent and start throwing sexually inspired statements at Clare. That would discourage participation in this thread. Not only that, but it sexually objectifies the person in question."

"I'm sure there are plenty of "hot chicks" here. However, if you'd like proof that I couldn't care less, take a look at the time stamp on Clare's post of her picture in this thread, and then the time stamps on our most recent debating. Then look at the content of the debating. You'll see that the debating continued on after the post of her picture. I do think Clare is beautiful. However, if I wanted something intimate with her, would it be logical for me to continue responding to her in ways that I know will likely displease her?"

Keep The Reason wrote:I don't mind people sticking up for one another at all, even those on opposite sides.


That's another lie because you have taken hg to task when he does.

Keep The Reason wrote:Again, hg's problem is just that he defends Christians, he actively tells us we should not be interested in their beliefs at all. Yes, he's actually said "Why do you care what 'such and such Christian believes?" as if confronting Christians for their beliefs is somehow off limits to us atheists."


Hg asking an atheist why they care about about what a Christian believes is the same as telling them that they "should not be interested in their beliefs at all, and confronting Christians for their beliefs is "off limits"?... Do you ever think that it might not just be the act of confronting, or questioning, a Christian about their beliefs, but might also have something to do with the way an atheist confronts Christians? Or, even their motivations behind it?

Keep The Reason wrote:And, he NEVER says to Christians, "Why don't you just let the atheists believe what they want?" Or if he does, it's painfully rare.


If he did would you say he's telling us Christians that we "should not be interested in their beliefs at all", and confronting atheists is "off limits"? Would you criticize him for it? If you did, by sticking up for us would you accept the labels "quisling" and "enabler" from your cronies? And, he hasn't asked a Christian that from what I've seen because most of the Christians on this forum don't attack the atheists here or their views in the same way, or as often.

Keep The Reason wrote:And look don't just go by me. I'm not the only one saying it. Everyone knows it about hg.


Yet you and your kiss-ass chorus still haven't given sufficient examples of exactly how hg "enables" and is "defending" Christians. Shocker.

Keep The Reason wrote:I make it a point to say to people that I do not have to show their beliefs a teardrop of respect.


No shit. But, it's about how you generalize, assume, and lack basic human decency towards most, if not all, religious people simply because there's certain ones who hold beliefs you abhor. It's to the point where it seems you see most, if not all, religious people as having the same beliefs. That makes it just about impossible to communicate with you because you're trying to tell me what I or someone else believes.
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Re: Current State Of The Forum

Postby humanguy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:40 am

Patrick Star wrote:I don't understand the divide between HG and KTR. Like I said, atheists tend to have very wide ranging opinions, but this outright hostility is rare and seems pointless. I don't understand why HG defends Christians so much unless he actually is one and is only posing here. And if he doesn't want to partake in atheist activism then there's no reason for KTR to goad him about it. What's the problem here?


I don't defend theists, I just don't have any problem with them; I know that people will think and believe as they will, whether or not I may like it. But as I've said here before, I don't like bullying, and KTR is one of the most self-righteous bullies I've seen on a discussion forum, self-righteous, close minded, sanctimonious and hypocritical when it comes to standards that he holds Christians to but that he doesn't think also apply to himself. When a Christian member expresses his belief in god, "Keep the Reason" becomes apoplectic that there's no proof to be seen of that god existing while time after time he allows himself to make claims that suit his own agenda without having any proof to back them up, which I consider to be hypocritical.

I like living life as an atheist, but I reject the notion that as an atheist I'm supposed to toe some party line to be accepted as a "true" atheist by KTR. "You're not a real atheist" he says, because I don't hate Christians like he does.

I think KTR is one of these angry atheists who cast atheists in a negative light. He accuses me of empowering Christians, when it's actually him and his ilk who empower Christians by behaving so petulantly, heaping scorn and verbal abuse on any who don't conform 100% to his way of thinking. Why does being an atheist mean you must hate religion? I don't see anything positive coming from hating and insulting Christians at every turn. Why hate anyone? I just don't see that as a viable way to live.
Most of us, just about all of us, have the capacity to be rock and rolled by a feeling of pure ecstatic raw joy. You do, don't you? We should respect each other for that.
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