Topic Suggestion: Demons

[jori]

Hi there,

I have a suggestion for a topic that hasn't been covered so far:

How Christians and Atheists view the "spiritual world", i.e. angels, demons and the like.

Part of my Christian life (was an evangelical Christian for eight years) I have spend in circles that believe in the existence of a spiritual world consisting mainly of angels and evil spirits (demons). They are considered most important when it comes to counselling (deliverance ministry) and evangelism (claiming ground for Jesus, fighting regional spirits through prayer etc.).

I have made some experiences and heard and read about a lot more that I can't all discuss away as being mental effects, even though this explains probably many of the acclaimed spiritual phenomena (e.g being "slain in the spirit" and the like). But I have seen some people who really behaved as if they were controlled by demons and maybe also some real liberating effects of prayer.

So I would really like to hear a discussion on these topics. I am not sure if it is really in the range of this format, but it would be great. You would probably need a charismatic as the Christian counterpart in this because the non-charismatics will probably be as quick to deny the reality of these things as the atheists .

All the best,

Jochen

[JustJim]

Hi, jori. Welcome to the forum!

For me, I think the answer to your question is the same as the answer most atheists would give to the question of whether there are gods or not. I'd be really surprised if there were atheists who don't believe in gods, but do believe in demons, angels, etc. That'd be kinda contradictory.

Jim

[darkumbra]

Hi, jori. Welcome to the forum!

For me, I think the answer to your question is the same as the answer most atheists would give to the question of whether there are gods or not. I'd be really surprised if there were atheists who don't believe in gods, but do believe in demons, angels, etc. That'd be kinda contradictory.

Jim

I believe in Maxwell's Demon... does that count?

[jori]

Hi, jori. Welcome to the forum!
For me, I think the answer to your question is the same as the answer most atheists would give to the question of whether there are gods or not. I'd be really surprised if there were atheists who don't believe in gods, but do believe in demons, angels, etc. That'd be kinda contradictory.
Jim

Hi Jim, thanks for welcoming me !

I don't know, if I got my point across clearly: I would like to hear a debate between an atheist (who as you said and as I would also expect, does not believe in demons) and a Christian who does, preferably from personal experience (for example from having been delivered of some demonic oppression or having delivered somebody else).

Even though I have made some experiences like that, I don't qualify, because I am not a Christian anymore .

Jochen

[darkumbra]

Hi, jori. Welcome to the forum!
For me, I think the answer to your question is the same as the answer most atheists would give to the question of whether there are gods or not. I'd be really surprised if there were atheists who don't believe in gods, but do believe in demons, angels, etc. That'd be kinda contradictory.
Jim

Hi Jim, thanks for welcoming me !

I don't know, if I got my point across clearly: I would like to hear a debate between an atheist (who as you said and as I would also expect, does not believe in demons) and a Christian who does, preferably from personal experience (for example from having been delivered of some demonic oppression or having delivered somebody else).

Even though I have made some experiences like that, I don't qualify, because I am not a Christian anymore .

Jochen

Well, for me the argument is the same as for God. No Evidence = No demons. Also no Fairies, Angels, elves, pookas, trolls, sprites, vampires, werewolves etc. etc. AND... I'm open to evidence to the contrary.

[Emery]

Hey jori, welcome. This is a good topic idea, what I'm thinking is M. Scott Peck, author of that bestseller from the 80s, A Road Less Travelled. He seems to have come to a belief in demon possession due to his work as a psychoanalyst, and treating people who claimed they were demon possessed. I'll try to look into that, but if anyone else has read up on Peck's later books, maybe they can contribute to a show.

[jori]

Well, for me the argument is the same as for God. No Evidence = No demons. Also no Fairies, Angels, elves, pookas, trolls, sprites, vampires, werewolves etc. etc. AND... I'm open to evidence to the contrary.

Well I have seen and experienced some remarkable things, like people knowing things that they would have no way of knowing and also no interest in knowing or remembering, people changing behavior abruptly, including not being able to control there body anymore as before (really looked like badly remote controlled) etc. Also heard and read plausible accounts of deliverance, situations changing dramatically after speaking something in the name of Jesus etc.

Some experiences that are commonly ascribed to demonic influence I can easily explain as psychological/psychiatrical effects. Others I cannot. However, since I am not a believer anymore, I can't debate an Atheist on this, but would love to hear/read/see a Christian with similar or more experience and knowledge do that.

[jori]

Hey jori, welcome.

Hi Emery, thanks for accepting me here .

This is a good topic idea, what I'm thinking is M. Scott Peck, author of that bestseller from the 80s, A Road Less Travelled. He seems to have come to a belief in demon possession due to his work as a psychoanalyst, and treating people who claimed they were demon possessed. I'll try to look into that, but if anyone else has read up on Peck's later books, maybe they can contribute to a show.

I think that would be a good starting point. Another one would be Neil Anderson with his books "Victory over the darkness" and "The bondage breaker". My guess is that most of the current day counseling ministries use his principles in one way or another, especially the charismatic ones, but also quite a few of the non-charismatic (as far as I know Neil Anderson himself is not a charismatic). A good part of his counseling system deals with demons, especially with the idea of getting rid of them through prayers of forgiveness, repentance and asking for forgiveness.

Maybe someone has made experiences with this kind of counseling (either as a counselor or counselee) and is willing to share his experience with you?

There is also a theological problem with this approach, but that's another story for another time .

[flawedprefect]

I'd be interested in anyone who has knowledge of the origins of demons - both in relation to specific religions of the world, and how they might have metamorphosed into Christian lore; and historical origins.

I know for a fact that the Byzantines were notorious for "creating" many of the demons of Christian lore, as they were hugely into fate and good vs evil.

For those who don't know - the Byzantines were a society spawned by the"eastern" Romans, but were later Greeks who adopted a Roman lifestyle, but the Catholic religion.

[Pseudonym]

I'd be interested in anyone who has knowledge of the origins of demons - both in relation to specific religions of the world, and how they might have metamorphosed into Christian lore; and historical origins.

I'm not that person, but I can add this snippet:

There are several words in the New Testament, the two most important of which are diabolos (translated "devil") and diamonos (translated "demon"). The two ideas are usually conflated, but in the New Testament, the uses appear to be quite distinct. In particular, in every occurrence in the New Testament, "demon" is used to describe what today we would think of as a severe mental illness.

[JustJim]

The two ideas are usually conflated, but in the New Testament, the uses appear to be quite distinct. In particular, in every occurrence in the New Testament, "demon" is used to describe what today we would think of as a severe mental illness.

Does that include the occurrence where the mental illnesses run off into the herd of swine and run themselves over the cliff? Or how about the several occurrences where the "demons" are being attributed to what are obviously epileptic seizures? Is epilepsy a severe mental illness?

Jim

[Pseudonym]

Does that include the occurrence where the mental illnesses run off into the herd of swine and run themselves over the cliff?

Yes, the person in that story had a mental illness. The rest of the story, of course, has a very strong symbolic meaning (e.g. banishing unclean spirits into unclean animals, giving them exactly what they asked for while destroying them in the process), and it'd be fascinating to pull this one apart some time. Different thread.

Or how about the several occurrences where the "demons" are being attributed to what are obviously epileptic seizures? Is epilepsy a severe mental illness?

It can be associated with mental illness, sure, but if it makes you happier, we can replace it with just "illness".

[JustJim]

Does that include the occurrence where the mental illnesses run off into the herd of swine and run themselves over the cliff?

Yes, the person in that story had a mental illness. The rest of the story, of course, has a very strong symbolic meaning (e.g. banishing unclean spirits into unclean animals, giving them exactly what they asked for while destroying them in the process), and it'd be fascinating to pull this one apart some time. Different thread.

Or how about the several occurrences where the "demons" are being attributed to what are obviously epileptic seizures? Is epilepsy a severe mental illness?

It can be associated with mental illness, sure, but if it makes you happier, we can replace it with just "illness".

So, then, you are reneging on your assertion that, "in every occurrence in the New Testament, "demon" is used to describe what today we would think of as a severe mental illness", since in the first case "demon" is used to refer to unclean spirits that exist independently and separately from the man with the mental illness, and in the second case, the man has an "illness" rather than a "severe mental" illness? If so, then yes... I'm happy you're admitting your initial blanket assertion is not true.

Jim

[Pseudonym]

So, then, you are reneging on your assertion that, "in every occurrence in the New Testament, "demon" is used to describe what today we would think of as a severe mental illness", since in the first case "demon" is used to refer to unclean spirits that exist independently and separately from the man with the mental illness, and in the second case, the man has an "illness" rather than a "severe mental" illness? If so, then yes... I'm happy you're admitting your initial blanket assertion is not true.

I'm admitting that my initial blanket assertion wasn't as finely tuned as it could have been.

"Mental illness" is a very modern concept. Today, we can distinguish between psychosis and epilepsy, but back in the day, it's easy to see how they might have been conflated in the single concept of "demon".

My central point remains: "Demon" and "devil" meant, at the time of the New Testament, different things.