Im a Catholic

[bong]

I want and very willing to hear your argument about catholic faith.I believe that there are some things, I must have to learn.May the God will enlighten us and gives more truth.

[whoosanightowl]

Bong,
What exactly would you like to know about the Catholic faith?

[Atheist37]

One word: transubstantiation.



(Ooops. How did I end up here? Sorry for posting in the no-atheist zone.)

[whoosanightowl]

Transubstantiation is, as you may already know, the belief of the Catholic church that the elements of communion, normally wafers and wine, are supernaturally transformed into the actual presence of Jesus' body and blood through prayers and rituals performed by the priest. The claim for this miracle stems from the last supper when Jesus blessed the bread and wine, then said it was his own body and blood (rather than just a symbolic gesture), and instructed his disciples to do the same in his memory.
Of course there is no evidence than anything miraculous really takes place except in the minds of those who believe, just as there is no evidence of salvation except in the minds of those who believe in that experience.

[darkumbra]

Transubstantiation is, as you may already know, the belief of the Catholic church that the elements of communion, normally wafers and wine, are supernaturally transformed into the actual presence of Jesus' body and blood through prayers and rituals performed by the priest. The claim for this miracle stems from the last supper when Jesus blessed the bread and wine, then said it was his own body and blood (rather than just a symbolic gesture), and instructed his disciples to do the same in his memory.
Of course there is no evidence than anything miraculous really takes place except in the minds of those who believe, just as there is no evidence of salvation except in the minds of those who believe in that experience.

Yep... and I remember it being made very clear to me that is was NOT a symbolic transformation - that it was a real, physical transformation.

Sometimes they make it really easy to see that it's all nonsense. Of course - it's ONLY easy if you're willing to admit what you see in front of you... it ain't flesh. It ain't blood. It's tasteless bread and cheap wine. Personally, if they're going to feed me bread and wine? I'd prefer a French Baguette and a good vintage Shiraz or Grenache - with a good aged, sharp cheese - if there's any laying around the altar. But that's just the heathen in me talking.

[JustJim]

No wonder the Bible says a lot of disciples found this too much to take, and left. It's CANNIBALISM! Personally, I think Martin Luther was more politically correct in changing that belief to one where the bread and wine don't ACTUALLY BECOME the body and blood. Instead, the body and blood of Jesus are present "in, with, and under the forms" (what the hell does THAT mean?) of bread and wine - without the communicants having to be cannibals. I remember looking forward to Holy Communion in my Lutheran upbringing, and it made me feel "cleansed" and "pure" and "holy" and "one with" Jesus when I partook of it. I also remember wondering how Catholics kept from vomiting when they took Communion, since they believed they were actually eating Jesus' flesh and drinking his blood. GROSS!!!

Jim

[Phileo]

I am not personally attacking anyone's faith, or questioning their position or standing as a Christian. However, I am concerned with knowing and understanding the truth, so that we can have an honest discussion about what truth is, and where I think we should stand on such, with regards to Christianity, and belief in Jesus Christ, who is the one true God, and the only way to heaven and salvation, through faith alone.



As a disclaimer also, I admit having a biased point of view, because my father had me baptized as an infant in the Catholic church, and I have been to numerous Masses at various parishes in various cities and states.



With that said, I will simply present information that I have obtained through various internet sources, along with my previous knowledge of what I have read, discovered, understood and have interpreted to be the truth. Again, I hold no theological degree, and will never profess to being a learned scholar on every aspect of Christianity, but I will say that this next year will be an interesting journey for me, as I dig deeper into what it means to be a Christian through the Centurions program.



First, let me say that there is a reason that the Catholic church identifies itself as the "Catholic faith", versus saying that they are a Christian faith, which most, if not all Protestant denominations (or non-denominational churches) identify themselves as. For example, I have been a member of the Presbyterian, Methodist, and now the Baptist church. In any or all of these churches if asked by an outsider about my faith, I would simply tell them that I am a Christian. Chances are, if you ask a person of the Catholic faith to identify their faith, they will reply by saying that they are "Catholic". I highly public example of this I can think of off the top of my head is Bill O'Reilly (I believe Sean Hannity is Catholic as well). He often refers to himself as being "Catholic", and never mentions being a "Christian". Titles aside, you get the idea. I am not saying this is necessarily a universal identity truth, but it is what I have witness, seen, and identified as truth over my 40+ years on earth.



Secondly, I present to you a simple chart at http://www.carm.org/catholic/grid.htm for your study and discernment. I did not create this chart, and if you read the comments of the author they even caution you by saying, "I hesitate to put this grid up only because I do not want to needlessly assail the Catholic belief system in an offensive manner. However, I cannot help but see the similarities between Catholicism and some of the cults."



I would caution you by saying that I do not identify the Catholic church as a cult of Christianity either, but this particular chart is telling, to say the least. And yes, I believe the folks at CARM do an excellent job or presenting the evidence intellectually and letting you decide for yourself what truth is.



I now turn to the words of Martin Luther, who has historically been identified as the leading figure in the reformation of the church. You can read the entire text of his words at http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... ty-03.html but I wish to specifically quote a paragraph, which I believe relates to our previous debate over whether or not Catholic Priests are the only source, or a more valid source to exercise demons. Again, I would say to you that this is false teaching, and simply not true. All believers in Christ have the ability, through the Holy Spirit to pray over and have authority over evil spirits. Granted, the ability of a believer to drive out demons most certainly would be qualified by our level of faith in Christ to be able to do this. Let me put forth Martin Luther's own words, and explain further from there.



It is pure invention that pope, bishops, priests and monks are to be called the "spiritual estate"; princes, lords, artisans, and farmers the "temporal estate." That is indeed a fine bit of lying and hypocrisy. Yet no one should be frightened by it; and for this reason -- viz., that all Christians are truly of the "spiritual estate," and there is among them no difference at all but that of office, as Paul says in I Corinthians 12:12, We are all one body, yet every member has its own work, where by it serves every other, all because we have one baptism, one Gospel, one faith, and are all alike Christians; for baptism, Gospel and faith alone make us "spiritual" and a Christian people.

But that a pope or a bishop anoints, confers tonsures; ordains, consecrates, or prescribes dress unlike that of the laity, this may make hypocrites and graven images,[4] but it never makes a Christian or "spiritual" man. Through baptism all of us are consecrated to the priesthood, as St. Peter says in I Peter 2:9, "Ye are a royal priesthood, a priestly kingdom," and the book of Revelation says, Rev. 5:10 "Thou hast made us by Thy blood to be priests and kings." For if we had no higher consecration than pope or bishop gives, the consecration by pope or bishop would never make a priest, nor might anyone either say mass or preach a sermon or give absolution. Therefore when the bishop consecrates it is the same thing as if he, in the place and stead of the whole congregation, all of whom have like power, were to take one out of their number and charge him to use this power for the others; just as though ten brothers, all king's sons and equal heirs, were to choose one of themselves to rule the inheritance for them all, -- they would all be kings and equal in power, though one of them would be charged with the duty of ruling.

As you can plainly read, Martin Luther did not pull punches. He tells it like it is, and calls a spade a spade.



Beyond the above, I put forth a survey the Barna Group did on Christians having a Biblical Worldview, which included a selection of Catholic believers. Here is a direct quote from Barna...

Currently, only 5% of adults have a biblical worldview.

The percentage varies among faith groups. About half of all evangelicals have such a perspective. Overall, 8% of Protestants possess that view, compared to less than one-half of one percent of Catholics.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page ... dateID=194



I consider the Barna Group to be one of the most renowned Christian research groups out there, and you can decide for yourself whether their standards deserve proper merit, but personally I can respect their findings as pretty accurate, especially in my own informal polling and circle of influence. These results are one of the main reasons why I applied for the Centurions program, and one of the main concerns I have for the future of this country.



All commentary aside, let me end this by stating again, that my only agenda is the truth, that is Christianity, and what it means to be a Christian. I am not attacking any particular person, nor do I have an alterior motive or other agenda. But I felt it important to post this, so that we can discuss the truth. I encourage others who read this to do their own research, study their own sources, and come up with truth on their own. As with any debate on truth, you will always be confronted with interpretation and opinion. And to that I can accept the criticism that comes with putting out something like this.



And for arguments sake, I consider the Holy Bible, as defined as the 66 books used by the Protestant church, as the only source of truth, with regards to God and Jesus Christ. Any outside source, is simply open to scrutiny and human error. But scripture has been verified and tested over many hundreds of years by thousands of scholars and sources, and has yet to be proven untrue.



I appreciate the opportunity to post this, and please have at it.

[Atheist37]

I am not personally attacking anyone's faith, or questioning their position or standing as a Christian.

I appreciate the opportunity to post this, and please have at it.

As an atheist, I find all Christian faiths to be equally false. I'm happy to attack your faith; that ought not bother you if you have a solid foundation for your belief and lifestyle. The fact that you think getting dunked in water somehow makes any difference is hilarious and mind-boggling. You statement that the 66 books of the Bible represent the truth is equally impossible to understand. You accept Noah and Job and Ezekiel to be "truth"? Maybe in a very symbolic and word-stretching way, but give me a break! You really believe that Saul of Tarsus saw a vision of Jesus and went blind? The book of Acts has three contradictory descriptions of that encounter -- and you call it the truth.

Sure, the Catholics have a litany of issues (pun intended). But they are the original Christian church. Everybody else is a copycat. And equally beyond belief.

Have at it.

[whoosanightowl]

I am concerned with knowing and understanding the truth, so that we can have an honest discussion about what truth is, and where I think we should stand on such, with regards to Christianity, and belief in Jesus Christ, who is the one true God, and the only way to heaven and salvation, through faith alone.

This is a presumption on your part as to what the truth is. It's not mine however, so we're going to have to agree to disagree.

First, let me say that there is a reason that the Catholic church identifies itself as the "Catholic faith", versus saying that they are a Christian faith, which most, if not all Protestant denominations (or non-denominational churches) identify themselves as.

The reason the Catholic church identifies itself as Catholic (which incidentally means universal) rather than Christian is because for the first 15 centuries or so, it was the ONLY Christian denomination, it's roots go back to the beginning of Christianity, much further than any protestant denomination (which derives it's name from the word protest) And it is the largest Christian denomination even to this day. However, most people I know do refer to themselves by their particular denominational name, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc.

I would caution you by saying that I do not identify the Catholic church as a cult of Christianity either, but this particular chart is telling, to say the least. And yes, I believe the folks at CARM do an excellent job or presenting the evidence intellectually and letting you decide for yourself what truth is.

If you don't identify the Catholic church as a cult of Christianity, then what is this particular chart telling of? Where did you get the idea that the bible was supposed to be the only source of information for Christians, especially since it wasn't even completed till several centuries after Jesus? And even then, due to the fact that the printing press wasn't invented yet, only the church hierarchy had access to the scriptures. So it seems likely that tradition played an important part of Christianity throughout much of it's history.

...All believers in Christ have the ability, through the Holy Spirit to pray over and have authority over evil spirits...It is pure invention that pope, bishops, priests and monks are to be called the "spiritual estate"; princes, lords, artisans, and farmers the "temporal estate." That is indeed a fine bit of lying and hypocrisy.

And Catholics would say it is pure invention that all believers in Christ have the ability, through the HS to pray over and have authority over evil spirits, and that it is indeed a fine bit of lying and hypocrisy. And since I personally don't believe in evil spirits, I would say it is pure invention that popes, bishops, priests, monks and all believers in Christ have any authority of these nonexistent entities.

And for arguments sake, I consider the Holy Bible, as defined as the 66 books used by the Protestant church, as the only source of truth, with regards to God and Jesus Christ. Any outside source, is simply open to scrutiny and human error. But scripture has been verified and tested over many hundreds of years by thousands of scholars and sources, and has yet to be proven untrue.

I beg to differ, but all scripture has not been verified, neither has it been proven true. And it is also open to scrutiny and human error. Plus, the Catholic church recognizes several additional books as revealed holy scripture which are also considered sources of truth with regards to God and Jesus Christ.

[spongebob]

I beg to differ, but all scripture has not been verified, neither has it been proven true. And it is also open to scrutiny and human error. Plus, the Catholic church recognizes several additional books as revealed holy scripture which are also considered sources of truth with regards to God and Jesus Christ.

This is the most ridiculous area of Christian claims. The bible is absolute "truth"? The bible has been verified? Proved? The bible is inerant? How presposterous. There's more than one cannon. There's "books" that were voted out of the current Catholic cannon. Voted! And not unanimously, mind you. I can appreciate a Christian who gleans value and direction from biblical stories, but these claims of absolute truth and accuracy are so absurd that making such claims only solidifies a person's status as an extremist and fundamentalist. Once such a claim is made, there's really nowhere for the conversation to go. It's over.

[JustJim]

Spongebob,

AMEN!!

Jim

[Rian]

Get them atheists offa this forum!

*chases them off with a broom*

[whoosanightowl]

But Rian, I was Catholic for 40 years, so I think I have some valuable, personal insight to their beliefs, many of which I also disagree with. But now looking from the outside after having been on the inside of both Catholicism and Evangelicalism, I can see problems with each of them. I'm only defending Catholicism here because it's under attack by fundamentalists, but when "Catholic" was posing on this board, I didn't allow him any slack either. So I do try to be fair at least...

[Rian]

That was a semi-joke post (see the smilie-winkie) - I thought it was just funny how lately, the atheists have been posting more than the Christians here! And I'm fine overall with it - it was just when some of the "that's ridiculous!" posts started showing up that I objected.

I never was fond of these two new forums, anyway. It seemed to just facilitate bashing the other side, unfortunately.


(although I thought it would be nice to have at least ONE forum where I didn't have to constantly correct SpongeBoB ... - but he posts here! )

[whoosanightowl]

Oh my gosh, Rian, I didn't even realize this discussion was under the "Christians" heading. You had every right to call us on it, I apologize and will try to pay closer attention in the future. Sister Sue