God's justice and hell, with David and Wonders

[wondersforoyarsa]

The sad truth is that I can comtemplate life, the universe and everything all by myself, armed with books and bibles, and come to a comfortable peace with the possible nature of god. Then I hear a Christian speak and all of that gets spoiled. I'll say it again. Christians are Christianity's worst enemy.

What'd I say?

[Emery]

Christians are Christianity's worst enemy.

I would agree with Spongebob with one alteration: Christian doctrine is Christianity's worst enemy. Individual Christians are no better or worse than anyone else. In fact, I think most Christians are better than the morality their religion preaches.

So this is truly a case of "hating the sin, but loving the sinner." The difference is, when an atheist says this, he doesn't also believe that the sinner is nonetheless deemed by god as vile and worthy of eternal damnation.

BTW Sponge, don't know if anyone has said this already, but bring back

[wondersforoyarsa]

I would agree with Spongebob with one alteration: Christian doctrine is Christianity's worst enemy. Individual Christians are no better or worse than anyone else. In fact, I think most Christians are better than the morality their religion preaches.

So this is truly a case of "hating the sin, but loving the sinner." The difference is, when an atheist says this, he doesn't also believe that the sinner is nonetheless deemed by god as vile and worthy of eternal damnation.

Alright, Emery, you and me, right here, bud. David's not here for you to hide behind - time to go head to head on this! You'll be begging for Hell by the time I'm done with you.

[Paula]

Different comments about different subjects discussed:
-David's point about our longing for justice is key. Humans long for justice which is linked to the concept of right and wrong which had to have come from somewhere. Who defined right things?
-It is really impossible to be an atheist, the only person that I could consider is a real atheist is Hitler, he followed his own concept of right or wrong.
-Saying God could have just destroyed everything evil before anything bad would happen is like a murderer sentenced to death telling his parents why didn't you kill me before I became this horrible person, why did you feed me when I was a baby and take care of me.
-The concept of eternity is what bugs people, I was listening to this story of a guy jumping off a parachute at 125,000 ft for a World record (it is true please look it up) and one thing they said analyzing it, was that at that height he would not feel like he is falling, the only way he would know he is falling is if he looks up at the object he jump off of, can we really define eternity? Maybe, if you really went to hell you wouldn't really know.
-Jesus did not come to save us from hell, but to save us from sin.
-Hell is having everything and not having someone to share it with.
-Hell is knowing you could have been so much more and choosing not to have it.
Peace

[pupatater]

Hello, I am new to this podcast and this board which I found through Wonders for Oyarsa's blog, which I just discovered a couple of days ago. I am attempting to read the entire Bible because I want to know just what it is I say I believe or don't believe and get really annoyed by Christians who don't really know the Bible but still try to argue with you. I just listened to the discussion between David, Emery, and Wonders for Oyarsa and have to say that I wish Oyarsa could have "rambled" more. He would be on his way to making a good point, but then the subject would change. I will post more of an introduction later when I have more time. For now, just wanted to say hello to everyone and I really enjoyed listening to the podcast.

[spongebob]

Christians are Christianity's worst enemy.

I would agree with Spongebob with one alteration: Christian doctrine is Christianity's worst enemy. Individual Christians are no better or worse than anyone else. In fact, I think most Christians are better than the morality their religion preaches.

So this is truly a case of "hating the sin, but loving the sinner." The difference is, when an atheist says this, he doesn't also believe that the sinner is nonetheless deemed by god as vile and worthy of eternal damnation.

BTW Sponge, don't know if anyone has said this already, but bring back

Sorry, Emery. was eaten by a shark.

[Emery]

Alright, Emery, you and me, right here, bud. David's not here for you to hide behind - time to go head to head on this! You'll be begging for Hell by the time I'm done with you.

Hey Wonders, sorry, been up to my neck in legal research. Sure, let's kick this one around. You have an opening salvo?

[Emery]

Welcome pupatater and Paula to the forum!

[StillSearching]

Hey Paula! Welcome to the forum. Here's my crack at your post.

Different comments about different subjects discussed:
-David's point about our longing for justice is key. Humans long for justice which is linked to the concept of right and wrong which had to have come from somewhere. Who defined right things?

In a nutshell, we did. And we still do, by changing and updating our laws, and hopefully instilling good common values in our children. There are endless ways to determine right and wrong.

-It is really impossible to be an atheist, the only person that I could consider is a real atheist is Hitler, he followed his own concept of right or wrong.

Um, Hitler wasn't exactly an atheist, although he didn't hold much love for the Christian church. He was raised a Catholic, didn't participate in church as an adult, and ordered his officers to form Muslim SS divisions. He was very much into the occult. Atheism does not necessarily promote following your own definition of right and wrong, regardless of the consequences. That's anarchy. Confusing the two will get you in hot water around here.

-Saying God could have just destroyed everything evil before anything bad would happen is like a murderer sentenced to death telling his parents why didn't you kill me before I became this horrible person, why did you feed me when I was a baby and take care of me.

Bad analogy. If you knew for certain that your baby would grow up and kill someone, I could make a pretty reasonable case for you to kill your baby. If the world is as most Christians claim, then God set us up to fail and has no right to demand reparation for our mistakes.

-The concept of eternity is what bugs people, I was listening to this story of a guy jumping off a parachute at 125,000 ft for a World record (it is true please look it up) and one thing they said analyzing it, was that at that height he would not feel like he is falling, the only way he would know he is falling is if he looks up at the object he jump off of, can we really define eternity? Maybe, if you really went to hell you wouldn't really know.

The concept of eternity is not simple, I agree. But I think most people are more "bugged" by the concept of mortality. This is one of the reasons why we invent deities and stories of the afterlife. It's why many of us strive to achieve fame and glory. We just don't want to accept that our lives may be insignificant. We want to live forever, like God.

-Jesus did not come to save us from hell, but to save us from sin.

They are one in the same in my opinion. They both invoke guilt and suffering in an attempt to gain compliance with a set of subjective social rules.

-Hell is having everything and not having someone to share it with.

Well then you don't really have everything then do you? Having to spend eternity by yourself would probably be unpleasant but if there is an afterlife I doubt it's anything such as that.

-Hell is knowing you could have been so much more and choosing not to have it.
Peace

No, that's regret. And stupidity if you somehow were given an opportunity to make a choice. Again, the guilt theme. Note: I'm not saying guilt is necessarily a bad thing, but it has the power to distort and religions have used it to pry people away from happiness.