Problems of homosexuality

[Atheist37]

There is a difference, however unclear, between that which is wrong and that which is dangerous. Take the example of getting drunk, for instance. There is absolutely nothing morally wrong with becoming drunk, but it puts you in a dangerous position from which you are far more likely to commit a crime or harm another person, actions over which you would have far more restraint in a sober state.

However dangerous an attraction toward children may be, I don't believe it is "wrong" in a moral sense.

I agree there is a difference between that which is dangerous and that which is offensive to society. Some cultures would take great offense at getting drunk, or even having a single taste of alcohol. The same cultures would perhaps think it very normal for a 40 year old man with two wives to court a 12-year-old girl to be his third wife. I have an idea which society is preferable but that view is necessarily biased.

I define morality to be the classification of actions which are offensive to society. In our western society, we have a liberal allowance for freedom of thought. It's our strength. It drives innovation and discovery, artistic expression, social progressiveness, and is a key element of liberty. Freedom of thought comes with the responsibility to have self-control over our thoughts. If personal restraint is relaxed then our liberties are at risk, because there will be social backlash against excesses and indulgence. So while it's not immoral per se to have perverse fantasies, I do think that expressing these fantasies in any way, be it words, art, or action, is offensive to our society. The difficulty, of course, is to decide which expressions cross the line. Even more difficult is deciding when the line can move, which is why today we struggle so mightily with homosexual rights and freedoms. Here in Oregon, the line just moved substantially, as we've just passed our Civil Union law.

[narsil]

The lunacy of fundamentalist Christian morality is revealed clearly in the sexual realm. Homosexuality is a dire, horrible abomination for the same reason that eating prawn shrimp is a dire, horrible abomination. Yahweh (i.e. Moses and the other puppeteers) of the Old Testament was bound by the standard prejudices and stupidities commonplace to mankind in that day and age, so it is no wonder that he (Moses) declares anything "different" or "weird" (in his personal view) to be a sin.

This is, of course, not limited to the OT. The New Testament, while far superior to its predecessor, is still filled with the same mindless stupidity that constitutes the vast majority of all spiritual texts.
Lust is immoral and will send you to hell, despite being a completely natural physical reaction to the sight of something sexually arousing. Better lose that hard-on, dude, because you're gonna burn in eternal fire for it.

This is obviously too ridiculous to even begin to reason with. Sexuality is one of the most natural and beautiful aspects of life, and is neither "unclean" nor "abominable" in and of itself. Like anything else, it can be abused (such as in the case of child molestation), but there is absolutely nothing wrong with one personal being physically attracted to another.

In fact, I go so far as to say that there is nothing "wrong" with an adult being sexually attracted to a child. If that adult acts on that attraction then it becomes very, very wrong, but there is nothing inherently "sinful" about sexual attraction itself.

Of all the innocent activities condemned by fundamentalists, homosexuality is the most tragically maligned. A homosexual relationship based on love is every bit as genuine and beautiful as a heterosexual one. Whether the couple is able to reproduce or not has no bearing on the morality of the love - after all, fundamentalists don't suggest we outlaw the marriage of sterile men with barren women, do they?
Homosexual love is perfectly natural, and perfectly acceptable between consenting adults.
No homicidal, racist, sexist, homophobic, genocidal, mythological ancient "god" has the right to say anything otherwise.

"This is obviously too ridiculous to even begin to reason with. " That much I agree with

[griggsy]

Paine is obviously right and Narsil just does not want to see the truth of Paine's fine comments that go with my humanist morality thread. Our evolved moral sense, with refining, needs no god to supplement it. With trial and error, we discern what is good and wrong.

[izzybear]

Ok Everyone,
First, God doesn't change His rules! The pig thing, think of it like a teenager, at first you have to put them on restriction because they don't have the right knowledge. Then, later, you let them drive on their own. Eating pigs and other animals would have been dangerous to early biblical people’s health. By the time Jesus came around people knew a lot more about cooking and how to keep things washed and clean. Also it was mentioned that Jesus said "Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' While yes Jesus did say that, it has nothing to do with animals! The question was asked because the disciples didn't adhere to the "tradition" of cleaning your hands. "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands"(Mark 7:5) Jesus responded with "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!" because it wasn't about washing their hands. The Pharisees were corrupt at heart and Jesus knew that. They were so concerned with the "status" and money to care about what God really wanted. So, the rest of the story "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'"(Mark 7:20-23)

Second, homosexuality is wrong, along with adultery, fornication, and all the philias. Yes, the Bible says it is wrong (which should make it pretty easy to decide), but it also comes with a lot of diseases. You have STD's, AIDS, the fact that in some cases you could open up a wound that could get infection, body fluids (liquid & solid), or who knows what else, and falling under all of them, you have no official commitment.
Yes, I know in the real world the "commitment" doesn't last and divorce it as prominent in both Christian and non-Christian homes, but I don't believe God agrees with divorce either.

[Penguin]

Ok Everyone,
First, God doesn't change His rules!

Great!

The pig thing, think of it like a teenager, at first you have to put them on restriction because they don't have the right knowledge. Then, later, you let them drive on their own. Eating pigs and other animals would have been dangerous to early biblical people’s health. By the time Jesus came around people knew a lot more about cooking and how to keep things washed and clean.

So... God did change His rules? I thought you said He doesn't do that. I'm confused.

BTW - exactly what did people know in Jesus' day that they didn't in Moses' day? How do you know that they had learned better food hygiene practices by then?

Also it was mentioned that Jesus said "Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' While yes Jesus did say that, it has nothing to do with animals! The question was asked because the disciples didn't adhere to the "tradition" of cleaning your hands. "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands"(Mark 7:5) Jesus responded with "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!" because it wasn't about washing their hands. The Pharisees were corrupt at heart and Jesus knew that. They were so concerned with the "status" and money to care about what God really wanted. So, the rest of the story "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'"(Mark 7:20-23)

Okay... that covers food, sorta.

What about all the other OT commandments? What about, say, the commandment to leave the edges of your field unreaped? That one wasn't about food handling, it was about charity: it left a supply of food for the poor and travellers to eat without the shame of begging. Why did that disappear? Or did it?

Second, homosexuality is wrong, along with adultery, fornication, and all the philias.

Hmm. I personally like hydrophilia. It's half of what lets detergents clean my clothes... but that's probably off-topic.

Yes, the Bible says it is wrong (which should make it pretty easy to decide),

The Bible also says that judging other people is wrong, but that doesn't seem to be stopping you, does it?

Also, what does the Bible say about following love? (Hint: one answer is in 1 John 4:16).

but it also comes with a lot of diseases. You have STD's, AIDS, the fact that in some cases you could open up a wound that could get infection, body fluids (liquid & solid), or who knows what else, and falling under all of them, you have no official commitment. Yes, I know in the real world the "commitment" doesn't last and divorce it as prominent in both Christian and non-Christian homes, but I don't believe God agrees with divorce either.

The group with the lowest incidence of STDs is lesbian women. How does that fit into your argument?

And as far as the "no official commitment" thing goes, that's solved with same-sex marriage.

[Pseudonym]

The Bible also says that judging other people is wrong, but that doesn't seem to be stopping you, does it?

Peter Carnley put it best: God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but his followers have more than made up for that omission.

[izzybear]

Hey,
Ok, I am sorry; people may not have had better cooking habits. However, when Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden God wanted to save the Jewish nation, sending Jesus. He did and the Jewish nation rejected Him. So, He made a way for the gentiles (non-Jewish) to come thought Jesus as the one and ONLY sacrifice. John 3:16-18 says “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (Jewish people) So, At the start of the "Church age" after the death and resurrection of Jesus, we are not bound by the Jewish laws, or the covenant made with Moses. He (God) then started a new covenant with gentiles though Jesus. -This is why women and children can worship in church.

As far as the "unreaped field" Christians still have ways of helping the poor. We don't all own farms but Christians have started a number of orphanages, abuse centers, pregnancy centers, and many other very helpful organizations. We also fund a good amount of food banks, children's programs, and addiction centers. The biggest two I can think of are Habitat for Humanity, and the Salvation Army. With that I do understand that MANY non-Christian people help!

The philias comment was meant for things like pedophilia, urophilia, pornophilia, and necrophilia.

Judging... I am NOT Judging you or anyone else. I don't know you and I have no reason to dislike you. Now, I believe in Jesus and I believe in what He did. I however am NOT perfect and I would never claim to be, but can dislike homosexuality or any other sexual relationship outside of marriage. I don't dislike the person but the act. Example: My son, I love him so much but if he bites someone I don't have to like what he did.

Love: You are correct in the fact Christians should be the face of love because God is love. I understand we are not all loving, but I also understand we are NOT perfect.

If you like the idea of same sex marriage fine, who am I to tell you no. God gave you the ability to choose. If you choose to disobey him well, we all do it, we are human. Please remember we will all have to explain our choices to the Holy God one day. Jesus loves every single person he created including you and I, He wants you to know Him and love Him. He also understands that we are human that is why He died for us. I mean make your choices but you will someday have to live with them either forgiven in Heaven with Him, or in Hell without Him.

[NH Baritone]

I have to say that I am so glad that so many atheists have seen the anti-gay movement as a religious one. Even though Russia is largely non-religious, it's also very homophobic, as was the Soviet regime that preceded the present one. Somehow the US, Canada, & Western Europe has recognized that there's no non-religious reason to reject homosexuality in the grand scheme of human sexual expression.

When I see things like these responses, I sometimes think my work here is done.

Then I read anything that Rian writes and reconsider that conclusion.

[Rian]

Then settle in and get comfy, baby - I bet I'll change your opinion before you change mine! I have seen little to no reason to listen to you, although I've listened to many other atheists here and considered what they had to say.

Besides, didn't you have contempt for people who thought they had it all together and thought they were right and tried to push their opinions on others? Looks to me that that's what you're like. Your "work here is done"? Sheesh!

Why do you choose to start with the personal insults? It just drags the board down.

[Aaron]

Besides, didn't you have contempt for people who thought they had it all together and thought they were right and tried to push their opinions on others?

Well said. It always seems that people who dislike christians almost always end up doing to christians what they hated christians for in the first place. Cough...tolerance...ahem. Oh well its just a good thing we christains are so forgiving .

[Rian]

And often, the Christians weren't even doing it in the first place! Just in the fevered imaginations of some atheists ...

Well, well ...

Have you seen this truly disturbing act of "tolerance" by gay-rights activists? here Watch as they gang up on and rough up an elderly lady who was merely trying to peacefully exercise her right to free speech.

Now which side did the hate and anger come from here?

(ps - doesn't President Obama have the same opinion about marriage as that lady?)

[Aaron]

Problems of homosexuality. Here’s a problem I am currently faced with...

This coming school year I will be entering my senior year in college. I have had a good friend as my roommate all throughout my college career; unfortunately he is leaving. I recently discovered that my new roommate is gay, and he isn’t just any normal gay, he may very well be the biggest flamer on campus. But whatever that’s not what I am here to debate. So now I am faced with this dilemma. I’m not asking what I should do, obviously I am not being forced into the situation and I could very well find somewhere else to live. What I would like to explore however is the rights of a women and why I am not granted the same. You may have already guessed where I am going. Imagine I am a women and I find out that my new roommate is a male. As soon as I discover this little mix up I march right down to housing and make known their error. They quickly apologize and promptly clear up the matter. That’s it, no fuss. And why I ask. What gives her the right to a non-male roommate? Well I suppose it would be because she doesn’t want those horrible creatures known as heterosexual human males looking at her in an undesirable manner, or maybe she wants to avoid seeing something she doesn’t want to see. I really can’t come up with any reasons beyond those. And then I say to myself: Well come to think of it those are the same reasons I don’t want a gay roommate (well and it would be awkward and I just don’t want to deal with it). So I have to ask. What is the difference between me and the women? She doesn’t want to live with a man because he might just want to stick his wiener in her and I don’t want to live with a gay roommate because he just might want to stick his wiener in my butt. What’s the difference? I don’t know. Perhaps someone will be able to clear this up for me.

So then I think well how is society supposed to adapt to the changing times? Clearly this is a problem for other things such as locker rooms and public bathrooms. Maybe we should abandon the whole sex thing altogether; just be unisex. Or maybe we could make gay bathrooms too. It’s really not fair, why should gay men be able to take showers with other straight men. I want to take showers in the women’s locker room! Why am I being discriminated against? (I am just trying to make a point, I wouldn’t want to actually do that; it would most certainly lead to places I don’t want to go). It seems to me homosexuality is destroying what I used to just accept as normal, natural. Does anyone else see where I am coming from or am I completely missing the mark?

[Aaron]

Yeah, how does Obama do it? It seems that not matter what he says he is loved. Or perhaps that's just another twisted opinion from a bible thumping uneducated bigot... Oh well he said it not me . Good job Rian, keep standing up for what you believe in.

[dunc289]

Does anyone else see where I am coming from or am I completely missing the mark?

Well, I think you make a valid point, but try not to get your knickers in a twist about it.

I think you're more worried that asking for a new roomie will make you look worse because you're a bit fundamentalist (?). You think people will think you want to change because you're christian, rather than you feel threatened as a man. (Nothing wrong with that BTW). But you should probably try sharing with this guy before you judge him. You might have something in common after all. Still, flaming camp queens can be a real pain in the arse. (Pun not intended). If he annoys you, get rid. But don't ask society to look out for you, sack up and sort it out like a man.

[Aaron]

I think you're more worried that asking for a new roomie will make you look worse because you're a bit fundamentalist (?). You think people will think you want to change because you're christian, rather than you feel threatened as a man. (Nothing wrong with that BTW). But you should probably try sharing with this guy before you judge him. You might have something in common after all. Still, flaming camp queens can be a real pain in the arse. (Pun not intended). If he annoys you, get rid. But don't ask society to look out for you, sack up and sort it out like a man.

Nope. I don't care what that housing lady thinks of me nor anyone else. Well of course I care what they think of me, but not to the degree you are suggesting. I did not mean to come across as a wienie. I have pitched my fit, but housing did not seem to understand my logic. As for society looking out for me. Wasn't that my point. I am not going to get the same rights as a women or a gay man. That's just how it is. I am not asking for pity points on here, I am merely pointing out a problem of homosexuality. You know the topic of this thread. But I liked your response otherwise, it was funny.