Problems of homosexuality

[NH Baritone]

Sexuality isn't complex.

Interesting. Apparently you haven't examined the topic very thoroughly. Allow me a moment to briefly expound on the complexity of sexuality:

First there is gender:

1. Gender defined by our external genitalia
2. Gender defined by our internal genitalia (internal & external can be different.)
3. Chromosomal gender
4. Psychological gender identity (not necessarily in sync with any of the above)
5. Medically assigned gender (often performed on hermaphroditic infants and on adult transsexuals)

Then there are gender roles, which are dictated culturally. These can be rigidly enforced (e.g., Pakistani honor killings) or more flexible (e.g., raising an eyebrow at a female welder).

Then there is sexual orientation

1. Opposite sex attractions
2. Same sex attractions
3. Bisexual attractions

Then there is sexual behavior

1. Partner acquisition/dating/mating behavior
2. Sexual practices
   • Masturbation
   • Petting
   • Oral-oral stimulation
   • Oral-genital stimulation
   • Anal stimulation
   • External genital stimulation
   • Internal genital stimulation
   • Coitus
   • Any variety of technological practices (e.g., phone sex, internet enhancements, etc.)
3. Sexual frequency
4. Number of partners/frequency of changing partners
5. Monogamy/non-monogamy
6. Kinks of limitless variety (most legal and ethical, some neither legal nor ethical)

Then there is the cultural presentation of sexuality through media (print, music, movies, theater) and cultural events (e.g., proms, weddings, etc.)

Then there are attitudes about all of these things

• Individual attitude
• Family attitude
• Cultural attitude (both within the larger culture and within individual subcultures; e.g. a reproductive bias regarding sexuality)
• Legal attitude (e.g., abortion)
• Religious attitude

I have only scratched the surface. Sexuality is indeed one of the most complex elements of human functioning. It involves biology, psychology, sociology, communication, power, economics, secrecy, openness, law, politics, and religion. Is it any wonder that most of the radio airwaves are taken up by songs about sexuality, that sexuality has defined the religious debates in the US more than any other topic, or that we are so enamored with sexual scandal?

[darkumbra]

Sexuality isn't complex.

Interesting. Apparently you haven't examined the topic very thoroughly. Allow me a moment to briefly expound on the complexity of sexuality:

First there is gender:

1. Gender defined by our external genitalia
2. Gender defined by our internal genitalia (internal & external can be different.)
3. Chromosomal gender
4. Psychological gender identity (not necessarily in sync with any of the above)
5. Medically assigned gender (often performed on hermaphroditic infants and on adult transsexuals)

Then there are gender roles, which are dictated culturally. These can be rigidly enforced (e.g., Pakistani honor killings) or more flexible (e.g., raising an eyebrow at a female welder).

Then there is sexual orientation

1. Opposite sex attractions
2. Same sex attractions
3. Bisexual attractions

Then there is sexual behavior

1. Partner acquisition/dating/mating behavior
2. Sexual practices
   • Masturbation
   • Petting
   • Oral-oral stimulation
   • Oral-genital stimulation
   • Anal stimulation
   • External genital stimulation
   • Internal genital stimulation
   • Coitus
   • Any variety of technological practices (e.g., phone sex, internet enhancements, etc.)
3. Sexual frequency
4. Number of partners/frequency of changing partners
5. Monogamy/non-monogamy
6. Kinks of limitless variety (most legal and ethical, some neither legal nor ethical)

Then there is the cultural presentation of sexuality through media (print, music, movies, theater) and cultural events (e.g., proms, weddings, etc.)

Then there are attitudes about all of these things

• Individual attitude
• Family attitude
• Cultural attitude (both within the larger culture and within individual subcultures; e.g. a reproductive bias regarding sexuality)
• Legal attitude (e.g., abortion)
• Religious attitude

I have only scratched the surface. Sexuality is indeed one of the most complex elements of human functioning. It involves biology, psychology, sociology, communication, power, economics, secrecy, openness, law, politics, and religion. Is it any wonder that most of the radio airwaves are taken up by songs about sexuality, that sexuality has defined the religious debates in the US more than any other topic, or that we are so enamored with sexual scandal?

No fair NH - you are expecting a child to accept the reality of an adult world. Very unfair of you to expose such a person to the complexity of reality - I think the cultural norm here is to pat them on the head and say 'there - there' --- Next you'll be demanding that they think.

/Nicely done by the way.

[mikedsjr]

NH, is that what you expect to teach kids? Nothing like throwing more mud into muddy water. Like I said...i say again.....Sin caused sex to be complex.

[darkumbra]

NH, is that what you expect to teach kids? Nothing like throwing more mud into muddy water. Like I said...i say again.....Sin caused sex to be complex.

Wow... you really did miss the point of his post didn't you. The points listed are the reality of sex and sexuality in the real world. The world we live in.

Please explain a hermaphrodite to me in terms of 'sin'... If you suggest that a person is born with both genitalia because of Adam and Eve's alleged transgression... then your 'God' is a lunatic. Should such a person marry a 'male' or a 'female'? Or is your response that they should not 'marry' at all. That they should cast aside any notion of finding Love because of how they were born?

Yep... tough questions that your 'worldview' has NO answers to.

I know it's a cliche --- But I thank God I'm an atheist.

[isaone]

Very impressive job NH well done !

mikedsjr - LOL are you paying attention ? I see nowhere that NH suggested we teach the full complexity of this to children ? What kind of straw man are you trying to erect (and what portion of that straw man) ? As is true with all areas of education you teach things to young people that are age appropriate in their complexity. The question you were discussing was "Is Sex a complex subject" . NH has completely whipped your position in his clear explanation of the complexity so you should simply admit it.

PS
Your repeated statements that sin has caused sex to be complex is completely pointless from a few directions. 1) It is an unsupported assertion on your part 2) The term sin is completely undefined 3) It is irrelevant since we are discussing our current society and culture. The issue of how we got here is only useful if we can reverse what was done in the past. If you are suggesting that we can actually eliminate sin from THIS WORLD and thereby cause sex to become non complex then please state that as such. Otherwise is it a statement of no use.

[mikedsjr]

You asked the stupid question as if hermaphrodites are in sinning by being born that way. They aren't in sin because they are born with both. I certainly would never state they can't get married. People are people. Rediculing a person who is a hermaphrodite is sin.

Once again, it is sin that makes things complex. That is the biblical side to this. It isn't complex issue. And I will state my position again regarding same sex marriage. I have no issue with it as a civil issue. That is what it is. As a religious value, it is different. Within the US of A, our laws are not to be religiously made. I totally understand the christian side, but as I see it this isn't a Christian nation and far from it. Christianity in America is a huge lapel pin that people use for many different horrendous purposes. It sickens me that people, in the name of christianity, would show real hatred to people like NH or even hermaphrodites. They have totally missed with Christ did for their own lives.

isaone, I could be wrong, but that might be more of a red herring, than straw man. Kids can handle a lot of big stuff, especially in a family setting. Unfortunately families rely on the peer pressured schools to teach such a subject is the worst place to do it. Again....NH has only pointed out that sin has caused complexity. Not that sex is complex. I get that you don't want to view it in my terms. i get you are dealing with a civil issue. Sin is of use to understand. It is only when people understand sin than one can understand my statement and understand themselves and who they are before God.

[darkumbra]

You asked the stupid question as if hermaphrodites are in sinning by being born that way. They aren't in sin because they are born with both. I certainly would never state they can't get married. People are people. Rediculing a person who is a hermaphrodite is sin. .

I'd agree. Being a H. isn't a sin... Ridiculing them is definitely wrong.

I AM glad o hear that you are for GAY MARRIAGE though. An H. is a person of both sexes. If they Marrry a woman, or a man, they are entering into both a gay and straight relationship. The partner on the other hand might not be... it's complicated.

Yes... I admit it right up front. i'm playing fast with the terms here, but it's difficult to see how you'd describe any relationship an H. might have because of the innate complexity of the situation.

I'll admit to being very surprised with your position on gay marriage - I thought for certain you'd be totally against it.

[NH Baritone]

NH, is that what you expect to teach kids? Nothing like throwing more mud into muddy water. Like I said...i say again.....Sin caused sex to be complex.

I was under the impression that we were all adults talking here. Adults do talk about sex, you know. I hope that all of your sexual conversations are not with children. I would find that prospect genuinely disturbing.

And since "sin" is a Christian/religious term, if sin adds additional complexity to sexuality, it is only for those who are Christians/religious. The rest of us find good old secular sexuality plenty complex and interesting enough ... without the overlay of divine opinions on the matter.

[isaone]

mikedsjr, I am also impressed and pleased that you have no problem with gay marriage. Of course I am referring to a civil marriage since I would never ask any particular religion to certify something they did not support. There are however many religions that do accept gay marriage and are willing to sanctify the unions so anyone who wants can get the religious side can do so.

Hmm I am interested in learning more about you point of view on sin but I am a real thread Nazi so I am not certain that a general discussion of how you define it fits here. if you want to start another thread on the subject just point me in that direction.

[JustJim]

NHB,

Absolutely outstanding post on the complexity of sexuality! You need to copyright and publish that somewhere, if you haven't already. Super kudos!

NH, is that what you expect to teach kids? Nothing like throwing more mud into muddy water. Like I said...i say again.....Sin caused sex to be complex.

Another fine example of Mike's irrational thinking.... I just love the way he refuted all NHB's points to support his counter-opinion that sexuality isn't complex, and also how he supported with such strong evidence that his God made sex simple, but we sinful humans make it complex. Oh, wait... I guess he didn't do any of that rational stuff....

Jim

[NH Baritone]

NHB,

Absolutely outstanding post on the complexity of sexuality! You need to copyright and publish that somewhere, if you haven't already. Super kudos!

NH, is that what you expect to teach kids? Nothing like throwing more mud into muddy water. Like I said...i say again.....Sin caused sex to be complex.

Another fine example of Mike's irrational thinking.... I just love the way he refuted all NHB's points to support his counter-opinion that sexuality isn't complex, and also how he supported with such strong evidence that his God made sex simple, but we sinful humans make it complex. Oh, wait... I guess he didn't do any of that rational stuff....

Jim

Thanks. Since it seems to have gotten such positive responses, I'll at least post it on my blog.

[Aaron]

Mike,

I have to dissagree:

Within the US of A, our laws are not to be religiously made. I totally understand the christian side, but as I see it this isn't a Christian nation and far from it. Christianity in America is a huge lapel pin that people use for many different horrendous purposes. It sickens me that people, in the name of christianity, would show real hatred to people like NH or even hermaphrodites. They have totally missed with Christ did for their own lives.

I understand where you are coming from Mike and I agree that we as Christains should not be quick to judge others for thier sin, as we are now only saved by grace. I also understand that we should not force our beliefs onto someone else, God gives a person the right to choose, how could I also not do the same. However, when it comes to making laws for the nation as a whole I think that is another matter. This is my country too and in our country the people make the laws. I am one of the people. If I am really a follower of God then how could I not support laws that He would be pleased with. These laws are laws that represent me also. As a Christian I am going to stand up for what I believe in. I am trying to ensure America remains a place worth me dying for.

[Penguin]

However, when it comes to making laws for the nation as a whole I think that is another matter. This is my country too and in our country the people make the laws. I am one of the people. If I am really a follower of God then how could I not support laws that He would be pleased with. These laws are laws that represent me also. As a Christian I am going to stand up for what I believe in. I am trying to ensure America remains a place worth me dying for.

You realize that what you're talking about here is imposing your beliefs on people who don't share them, right?

Also, if your goal is really to please the Christian God, then wouldn't homosexuality be way down the priority list well below, say, idolatry? Why not leave the gay people alone until you've used your legal and political clout to harass the worshippers of "false" gods for a while?

[Mr. Sluagh]

NH, is that what you expect to teach kids? Nothing like throwing more mud into muddy water. Like I said...i say again.....Sin caused sex to be complex.

Meh. I was raised with a very liberal take on gender. Not with all the details in NHB's post drilled into me, mind you, but with nuance. Kids don't get enough credit. They understand things like that fine if you give them the chance (especially since, before puberty, boys and girls aren't as different, so the differences aren't as apparent to them unless they're burned into their minds). Do you really think the Disney gender paradigm is healthy? I thought it was effing creepy when I was seven.

[mikedsjr]

Mike,

I have to dissagree:

Within the US of A, our laws are not to be religiously made. I totally understand the christian side, but as I see it this isn't a Christian nation and far from it. Christianity in America is a huge lapel pin that people use for many different horrendous purposes. It sickens me that people, in the name of christianity, would show real hatred to people like NH or even hermaphrodites. They have totally missed with Christ did for their own lives.

I understand where you are coming from Mike and I agree that we as Christains should not be quick to judge others for thier sin, as we are now only saved by grace. I also understand that we should not force our beliefs onto someone else, God gives a person the right to choose, how could I also not do the same. However, when it comes to making laws for the nation as a whole I think that is another matter. This is my country too and in our country the people make the laws. I am one of the people. If I am really a follower of God then how could I not support laws that He would be pleased with. These laws are laws that represent me also. As a Christian I am going to stand up for what I believe in. I am trying to ensure America remains a place worth me dying for.

I don't have a problem with standing for their beliefs. However, if you think this is a christian nation, then you have to admit you have a skewed view of christianity. Look at the top songs on the charts. Look at the commercials on tv.....no wait, don't look. Look at the amount of sexual content in tv shows. Look at the amount of abortions. America is a me centered nation. There is not much that says "God" as a whole nation. I would predict that less than 15% of america is REALLY christian. I mean devoted to Christ. However, the religiuos right is a political money machine that doesn't necessarily do the will of God.

So I have no problem with non believing men deciding their own laws. If there was a true...I mean TRUE....movement of God in America, the nation would automatically choose laws that please God without a fight. But this isn't a nation needing Christians imposing their will. Its a nation that serves man first, because its is a my-rights nation.