Ch. 6: Evolution and ID

[Richard]

1) Morals are not only commands but are part of God's nature
2) God's true motives are not 100% knowable
3) God doesn't change
4) God's motives are always in line with his Good Moral Nature
5) God's morals are immutable.

I hope someday you will understand that to us non-theists, you just made all these up to satisfy your belief.

[Lawrence]

1) Morals are not only commands but are part of God's nature
2) God's true motives are not 100% knowable
3) God doesn't change
4) God's motives are always in line with his Good Moral Nature
5) God's morals are immutable.

I think the problem lies at 3 "God doesn't change". This is directly contradictory to 2 "God's true motives are not 100% knowable". If God's motives were knowable than 3 could be determined as true or false. Yet since God is at least partly unknowable, 3 is an unprovable assumption.

[Lin]

Firstly: Evolution is not a matter of opinion. Just like gravity is not subject to opinion either. Only in the USA is this a "debate" and an idiotic one at that.

Secondly: Evolution does show how we came to be and there is no need for god in this NATURAL process. No Supernatural agent needed.

Just study it.

[tonyenglish7]

Of course evolution occurs. But does it explain the abiogenesis of life and the diversity of complex life? For the record, it has not been shown to be sufficient thus far. Do you hold to punctuated equilibrium or how do you explain the Cambrian explosion?

[humanguy]

Smilin' Tony! Murder any abortion doctors lately?

[tonyenglish7]

Not yet but the day is young....(Since you don't understand I will roll with your ignorance.)

[humanguy]

Not yet but the day is young....(Since you don't understand I will roll with your ignorance.)

Ignorance? You're the one who stated that you were willing to kill an abortion doctor, so that's what you'll always be to me: a doctor murderer, which makes you no better than Scott Roeder. As you thinketh in your heart, and so on.

[tonyenglish7]

You mistook a theoretical discussion as to why it is "not yet" time to stick up for the innocent victims and spun it into a pro violence stance. Because there are other methods available, it is not justifiable right now. But at some point, slavery became such a moral crime and yet so culturally accepted that violence was needed. The same was true with Nazism, Apartheid, and so on... When something is morally wrong, it doesn't go away just because a lot of people justify it and eventually, justice will prevail. It's a tough issue but someday it will be seen clearly. The issue was the same facing the revolutionaries of America, when it considered violence as morally justifiable in the light of tyranny? The state has authority granted it by God, yet even in our own constitution, the founding fathers drafted a clause to protect future generations the same agony they faced in rebelling in a violent way against the King. Those millions of female victims are crying out for both justice and recognition.

[humanguy]

You mistook a theoretical discussion as to why it is "not yet" time to stick up for the innocent victims and spun it into a pro violence stance.

You are a lying son-of-a-bitch.

[tonyenglish7]

You lie to yourself which is the worst kind of liar.

[humanguy]

You lie to yourself which is the worst kind of liar.

Says the doctor-murdering Christian. You and your kind are despicable.

If any abortion-providing doctors are ever murdered anywhere around your area, you can bet your ass that I'll be calling the local police. I have something you wrote that they might be interested in.

[tonyenglish7]

Wow, you really are bent on distortion and darkness are you not? BTW, if there is no God, how can there be anything wrong in your view? It's all subjective anyway.... right? You have to steal from my world view in order to judge me...

[mitchellmckain]

Smilin' Tony! Murder any abortion doctors lately?

Since this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the discussion this is a PURE Ad-Hominem attack.

Hg you made your point when that was the topic of discussion, but this is inappropriate.

Of course evolution occurs. But does it explain the abiogenesis of life and the diversity of complex life?

Does the Bible explain how computers work? Don't be ridiculous. The theory of evolution is to explain the origin of the species and NOT to explain the origin of life itself.

Science doesn't even have a workable theory of abiogenesis yet. All it has at this point is a plausible suggestion and a VERY understandable lack of evidence that can only be expected. Scientists are left with working with the basic theory to try to piece together how such a thing could happen. Strides have definitely been made but it is clearly a long and complicated process that has to be worked out and that will take a considerable amount of time to do.

For the record, it has not been shown to be sufficient thus far.

What is not been shown sufficient for what?

Do you hold to punctuated equilibrium

Well let me begin by saying that puctuated equillibrium is a bit of an oversimplification. I would not say that there are no gradual changes or even that changes necessarily occur as rapidly as "punk-eek" suggests. A gradually changing evironment is a good example of where we would expect to see a gradual change in even a large stable population. But we should often expect a lot of evolution to occur in small populations on the brink of extinction where we would expect little or no fossil evidence. We should not assume that evolution is occurring in a universal manner over the whole population of a species when in fact that is NOT what the evidence suggests. On the contrary, the evidence tells us that evolution (especially that of man) is one full of many many dead end branches. Thus while the fossil evidence reports the large stable majority, it is the separated minority, leaving practically no fossil evidence, but living during the same period where a lot of the evolution is happening. In this way, a struggling minority can gain the evolutionary upper hand and then it is the previous majority types that are now struggling to compete so that their population begins to decline. And of course, competition is only one of the possible environmental causes for a population decline.

how do you explain the Cambrian explosion?

One of the things life evolves is the ability to evolve itself, and so when living things evolve something like DNA, the eukaryotic cell or multicellular organization then it is natural to expect the whole evolutionary process to accelerate. Furthermore there are all kinds of environmental and climatic changes that give reasons to expect changes in the rates of developments like that.

[Keep The Reason]

Since this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the discussion this is a PURE Ad-Hominem attack

Hg you made your point when that was the topic of discussion, but this is inappropriate.

WRONG! It is not inappropriate to confront someone who publcly advocates murder like tonyenglish does with announcements like this. Maybe when everyone who sees tonyenglish confronts him on his immoral stance, he will learn his stance, akng with his ethics, are indeed vile.

It is alway appropriate to confront such people. In fact, it's obligatory.

Tony. Have you murdered any abortion doctors yet? When do you plan on starting? Let me know becuase I'd like to make sure you are stopped and put into prison.

[Patrick Star]

WRONG! It is not inappropriate to confront someone who publcly advocates murder like tonyenglish does with announcements like this. Maybe when everyone who sees tonyenglish confronts him on his immoral stance, he will learn his stance, akng with his ethics, are indeed vile.

It is alway appropriate to confront such people. In fact, it's obligatory.

Tony. Have you murdered any abortion doctors yet? When do you plan on starting? Let me know becuase I'd like to make sure you are stopped and put into prison.

I don't take this tony guy seriously at all. Most likely he's just mouthing off, venting some frustration that he can't find another outlet for release. I just ignore people like that.