Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby crazylegsmurphy » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:20 am

Aaron,

Whew, Ok....let's step back for a second.

I'm confused on some of your statements so perhaps you could clarify some things for me so I can better understand your position. In a post above you say,

My stance: theres a guy, God gives him freedom to do whatever he wishes. The man chooses to follow the desires of his own heart. Somewhere along the way the guy gets involved with homosexual stuff. He falls deeper and deeper into sin, becoming a slave to it.


I'm confused by this because you seem to have missed a few key details that might have some barring on the story. You say that God gives him freedom to do whatever he wishes, but what about the fact that God made him gay in the first place?

I believe you still might be confused (or not convinced) that homosexuality in most cases is not a choice. It sounds like you feel that people are for whatever reason choosing to be gay, but you really haven't explained why a straight person would knowingly choose to be gay. Your only explanation seems to be that some people allow themselves to be a slave to sin.

So I guess the real question is, why would God knowingly make someone Gay, when it is his own law that says it's a sin?

You seem to be saying that the only thing that makes you gay is if you actually follow through on the actions. Does this mean that if I never have sex again with a woman then I am not straight? Does the gay man in your hypothetical idea stop being gay in his "heart" if he never touches another man? How should a gay man pray, would it sound like this, "God, I am sorry that you made me this way, I pray that you give me the strength to not sin, and to forgive yourself for making me how you did, and let me into the kingdom."

I know these are all kind of rhetorical, but I think what many of the people on here are trying to tell you in a nice way is that you really don't seem to have any idea why you feel the way you do. You have one side of a poorly written story and you're basing your entire belief on it. When people inform you that you're missing some of the story, you resort to explaining your "gut feeling" and how that happens to mesh with what is in the bible. The reason why so many Atheists are on here talking to you about this is because you don't seem to have put this topic through a critical thinking filter, done your homework, and come to a conclusion based on logic.

What keeps happening is what often happens when talking to Christians. The conversation turns into nothing more than a few people trying to figure out how to say the exact same argument 20 different ways so that one of them might just make sense. It's like this futile attempt to find the perfect argument and when the Christian just sits there saying, "God did it!" it gets frustrating.

So here is what I suggest, and it is up to you whether you take this advice or not. I think you need to gather as much information you possibly can about this argument before you argue it any longer. I (and I assume many here) will be totally willing to help you find all the information you need to become completely educated on this topic. Then, using that information sit down and come to a conclusion based on ALL the evidence.

Once you have done that, you may still feel the same way about homosexuality, but at least you'll be able to explain why. You'll be able to take the information you've learned and defend your position without fail. I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm saying that you need to bring more to the table so you can properly explain to me why I'm wrong and if you can do that, you might even change my mind (as I am also a skeptic and open to changing my position if the evidence is good enough).

If however, you're unwilling to do this, then I am not sure you should continue to have an opinion on this topic. The reason I say this is because you are arguing from ignorance and this is not typically a "winnable" position.
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby ScottBarger » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:52 am

A question for the other Christians participating on this thread. How do we know that homosexuality is wrong? I assume it is because something we've read in the Bible. So if you are a Christian and you think the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong, would you be able to post those passages that have lead you to this conclusion?
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby JustJim » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:14 am

I give up............

Jim
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby Emery » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:47 am

ScottBarger wrote:A question for the other Christians participating on this thread. How do we know that homosexuality is wrong? I assume it is because something we've read in the Bible. So if you are a Christian and you think the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong, would you be able to post those passages that have lead you to this conclusion?

"But before they went to bed, the men of the city beset the house both young and old, all the people together. And they called Lot, and said to him: Where are the men that came in to thee at night? bring them out hither that we may know them: Lot went out to them, and shut the door after him, and said: no not so, I beseech you, my brethren, do not commit this evil. I have two daughters who as yet have not known man : I will bring them out to you, and abuse you them as it shall please you, so that you do no evil to these men, because they are come in under the shadow of my roof. But they said: Get thee back thither. And again: Thou camest in, said they, as a, stranger, was it to be a judge? therefore we will afflict thee more than them. And they pressed very violently upon Lot: and they were even at the point of breaking open the doors. And behold the men put out their hand, and drew in Lot unto them, and shut the door: And them that were without, they struck with blindness from the least to the greatest, so that they could not find the door. And they said to Lot: Hast thou here ally of thine? son in law, or sons, or daughters, all that are thine bring them out of this city: For we will destroy this place, because their cry is grown loud before the Lord, who hath sent us to destroy them." (Gen. 19:4 -13)

"We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law, with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and the unruly, the godless and the sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murders, the unchaste, homosexuals, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching," (1 Tim 1:8-10)

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination"(Lev. 18:22)

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Lev 20:13)

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."(1 Cor. 6:9-10)

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper." (Rom. 1:26-28)

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 7)

"And reducing the cities of the Sodomites, and of the Gomorrhites, into ashes, condemned them to be overthrown, making them an example to those that should after act wickedly."(2 Peter 2:6)
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby Emery » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:49 am

For me the key passages were always the ones in Romans, talking about unnatural and degraded passions. Also, since sex outside of marriage was sin, and those guys could not possibly have been married, that was another problem.
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby StillSearching » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:50 am

tirtlegrrl wrote:
Aaron wrote: How come these threads always seem to turn into one Christain battling a thousand athiests (I suppose you're not all athiests)


I've noticed this too, to the point where I described the site's forum to a friend as a place where a Christian posts an idea or takes the bait in some other post and then get mobbed by everyone who disagrees.


I agree with you to some extent, however there is a lot of variety in the "affiliations" here. It runs the full gamut from staunch atheist/materialist all the way to the Tony and Aaron types, and almost everything between. I am a practicing Episcopalian, but I argue with Aaron and Tony because they're still in the dark ages when it comes to God. :D Whoosanightowl has left the Christian faith, but remains a deist. JustJim is... well, he's JustJim. 8) Actually, I think he and I are in the same neighborhood when it comes to religion/philosophy. Emery is about the most open-minded atheist I've ever heard. Scott is a liberal Christian, though I think not as liberal as Pseudonym and me.

Aaron, you're getting beat up on this issue because your position is ignorant, bigoted, discriminatory, unfounded, inarguable, intrusive, and I would add, in my opinion, not in line with the teaching of Jesus. No offense. I know where you're coming from. I grew up thinking gay people were to be laughed at and ridiculed. Then I became an adult, opened my mind, met some of them and realized...holy crap...they're just like me in so many ways! In particular, they are like me in the sense that I did not choose my sexual orientation after exploring the various "options" available to me. More than a few of them have become dear friends to me and my wife, people with whom we love to spend time.

I made the suggestion to you before that you try this approach with your roommate. Instead of bashing him over the head with your fear and loathing of homosexuality, try to be friendly to him and get to know him. You might find out that he's a really cool person, in spite of your differences of opinion in terms of the gender to which you are attracted.

Also, take a writing course while you're in school. Yours is atrocious. Again, no offense. I'm merely concerned about the dark path down which you are heading. :wink:
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby StillSearching » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:55 am

ScottBarger wrote:A question for the other Christians participating on this thread. How do we know that homosexuality is wrong? I assume it is because something we've read in the Bible. So if you are a Christian and you think the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong, would you be able to post those passages that have lead you to this conclusion?


Please speak for yourself. In contrast, I "know" it is not wrong, just another facet of the creation.
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby Pseudonym » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:20 pm

ScottBarger wrote:How do we know that homosexuality is wrong?

If by "homosexuality" you mean sexual orientation, we don't know that at all.

If by "homosexuality" you mean certain taboo sexual practices, we know that some Biblical authors thought they were wrong, and we have a fairly good idea why they thought that.
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby NH Baritone » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:56 pm

Pseudonym wrote:
ScottBarger wrote:How do we know that homosexuality is wrong?

If by "homosexuality" you mean sexual orientation, we don't know that at all.

If by "homosexuality" you mean certain taboo sexual practices, we know that some Biblical authors thought they were wrong, and we have a fairly good idea why they thought that.

Gay couples do nothing that is not practiced regularly by straight couples. Sexual practices are apparently not the issue. It's biological plumbing.

I can understand why a religion would want to promote stable families and support children. I can also understand why a religion would want to support fidelity within a marriage.

But I cannot fathom why a religion would say that when two couples exhibit the identical love, commitment & sexual behavior, that the gay couple (one whose members share similar biological organs) is god-damned while the straight couple (with variant organs) is god-blessed. And yet, this week the Southern Baptist Convention kicked out a Fort Worth church simply because it allowed gay people to be members.* The SBC is the biggest Protestant denomination in the US. To much of the country, the Southern Baptist Church IS Christianity.

And while we're on the subject, which is actually the bigger threat to the institution of marriage: The pervasiveness of divorce or the wish of gay couples to solemnify their unions before the law? When a higher percentage of Christians than atheists get divorced, the arguments suggesting that Christians are the champions of marriage rings hollow.**

*http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/06/southern-baptists-eject-fort-worth-church-over-gay-issues.html
**http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby Aaron » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:47 pm

Ahh thanks Emery, theres nothing like the bible to back up your arguments :-D . Like I said from the beginning! I never said there was any good arguments outside of the bible or God (well at least the kind of arguments you're all looking for). I know I said this before I ever got into this discussion, cause I knew what a mess I'd get my self into. But anyways the bible is where its at for me, if you do indeed believe in God as I do then it becomes very clear homosexuality is wrong.

StillSearching wrote:Also, take a writing course while you're in school. Yours is atrocious. Again, no offense. I'm merely concerned about the dark path down which you are heading


Ahh really, dang it! I try, I do. Oh well I'll just have to keep practicing, perhaps take a few notes from Baritone, hes good (except for the parts where he says mean stuff). Could you please point out the biggest fault? Thanks :wink:
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby Aaron » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:49 pm

JustJim wrote:I give up............


Sorry Jim... :|
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby Aaron » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:53 pm

crazylegsmurphy wrote: I think you need to gather as much information you possibly can about this argument


You may get your wish... I just may get more information than I want this coming semester :(
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby Aaron » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:07 pm

tirtlegrrl wrote: So it could be that if you're feeling mobbed, it's because you just plain left a lot of holes in your argument. On this forum many of us are interested not only in what others believe, but in how thoroughly they've considered those beliefs.


Oh I don't mind, its not that bad. I'd like to think I do pretty well, considering my arguing skills are hardly on par with the regular posters around here. I think they are for the most part pretty nice to me. (isn't it amazing that the early Christains in Rome would give thier lives to speak the truth, they must have had something on thier hearts eh :-) , I've really nothing to whine about) I'll get better hopefully, and hopefully I won't leap into another argument like this; at least for a little while. They are hard to fight when you're the only one that believes in God, its a losing battle right from the start, especially when you can see it coming before you even start writing. But thats okay, I don't mind getting bashed around for a little bit. As long as I get to keep preaching Jesus :-).
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby StillSearching » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:31 pm

Aaron wrote:
StillSearching wrote:Also, take a writing course while you're in school. Yours is atrocious. Again, no offense. I'm merely concerned about the dark path down which you are heading


Ahh really, dang it! I try, I do. Oh well I'll just have to keep practicing, perhaps take a few notes from Baritone, hes good (except for the parts where he says mean stuff). Could you please point out the biggest fault? Thanks :wink:


Mostly, it's spelling. I realize that you're posting on a forum, not writing a cover letter for a job application, so perhaps you're just being lazy about it. This just happens to be one of my peeves. It's difficult for me to take someone's opinions seriously when they don't bother to express them with clear and proper language. Apparently, I'm a dying breed.

Aaron wrote:You may get your wish... I just may get more information than I want this coming semester


Again, I beg of you, set aside your predisposition against your future roommate and try to get to know him as a person. Not as a queer, as a person. I agree that you may get more information than you want - you may discover that you enjoy his friendship, even though you refuse to condone his sexual orientation.


EDIT:
Aaron wrote:They are hard to fight when you're the only one that believes in God,


How very self-centered of you to think that you are the only person here who believes in "God."

This would be a better way to phrase what I believe you were trying to say: "They are hard to fight when you're the only one who believes the way that I do."
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Re: Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

Postby tirtlegrrl » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:47 am

StillSearching wrote:
Aaron wrote:
StillSearching wrote:
Also, take a writing course while you're in school. Yours is atrocious. Again, no offense. I'm merely concerned about the dark path down which you are heading

Ahh really, dang it! I try, I do. Oh well I'll just have to keep practicing, perhaps take a few notes from Baritone, hes good (except for the parts where he says mean stuff). Could you please point out the biggest fault? Thanks
Mostly, it's spelling.


I was gonna say something, but I didn't want to scare him off...I would have mentioned the run-on sentences that lack proper punctuation. The period and semicolon are your friend, Aaron. Take a look through "The Elements of Style" by Strunk and White; that's a book that should be required reading for all speakers of English. It's not very thick, and it will help your college writing too. Other people are more likely to take your ideas seriously if you write well (I should practice what I preach; I haven't read the book in years). I suppose this can be both a good and bad thing; my diatribe on the Atheist board about C.S. Lewis comes to mind. Some of his analogies and arguments aren't that good but his vivid and eloquent writing style has earned him probably more quotes in Christian publications than Jesus gets.

Thanks for being a good sport.
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