Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

[whoosanightowl]

Can you admit that absolute truth cannot truly be known by human beings yet, and that you could possibly be wrong in your beliefs?

Chaa, thats where faith comes in right? It would be a lie to say that as a Christian I do not have doubts, that I do not sometimes wonder if I am wrong. There have been times when one of you stubborn athiests have said something that stuck in my head and have made me wonder if I had gotten it all wrong from the very beginning. I have really had to go through what I believe. But I can stand here today and honestly say that God has led me through every one of those times of doubt. Today my faith in Him is as strong as it has ever been and I take no credit. To Him be the glory. As for me being arrogant... well I realize why you would say that. However, that is the last thing I want to be. I guess I would say to you that I really do believe ever so deeply that I speak the truth. And it is because of that belief that I am writing to you now. I suppose you could call me arrogant, but I would call it the right thing to do. What is your take? If you believed the way I do as strongly as I do would it be wrong of you to not tell others about your beliefs?

Thanks Aaron for your honest reply. I appreciate that you can admit to the possibility of being wrong. I must ask though, when you were going through periods of doubt, how do you know it was God that led you through them and back into strong belief? Is it possible that you led yourself through them by reading the Bible and praying until your faith was strong again?
See, if I had strongly believed that aliens from outer space were living here on earth, but then started to doubt their existence, I could just as easily have re-convinced myself by I reading lots of convincing stories about them and even sending thought messages to them trusting they had the power to read them. And this would be especially easy to do if nearly everyone I knew honestly believed in them as well and those who didn't were thought to be in denial or something because their existence was so obvious to the rest.
Does that make sense, and if so, could that possibly have been what led you through your doubts?

I really don't think YOU are arrogant so much as your belief system which says: "If you believe in Jesus you will spend eternity with God, but if you don't, you will be eternally separated and suffering some sort of anguish". Without evidence to back up such a claim, why should anyone accept this as truth? If someone from another faith were to tell you something similar concerning their deity, would you believe it? Nobody has ever died and gone to one place or the other then come back to describe it. Near death experiences don't count because the brain is still alive and any after life beliefs are likely to surface during that time of unconsciousness making it seem real. You know how dreams can be. So we don't know if such places even exist, and my own opinion is that they don't, therefore I have no reason to fear what comes next.
So it's the religion's claim of knowing for sure, even though knowing for sure isn't possible, and then expecting people to both buy it and sell it without being able to provide any objective evidence of it---not just what someone perceives as God working in their own life. That can be credited to just about anything. Perhaps people who are in a vulnerable state psychologically, physically or emotionally may need of something to give them hope and will be more likely to accept it. But hope is not certainty. I hope my husband and children will be safe on the road today, but that does not guarantee they won't be involved in a car accident.
I guess if you honestly believe that people are going to hell who don't accept the doctrines of Christianity, Jesus' virgin birth, his miracles, his being raised from the dead, his ascension into heaven, the father, son, holy spirit, Trinity, etc., then it makes sense that you are trying to convince them to consider it.
But I think you should also be honest about the fact that you really are not completely certain of it and not call it "the truth" as though it positively is.

Sue

ps, you actually seem like a genuinely nice person.

[Carico]

Sorry, but it's not a belief system, it's the truth. So there's nothing you can do about it except stop spitting on Jesus who paid for your sins by his death. Scorning Jesus won't change what he did for you, it won't change God, it will just hurt you even more because you don't have power over God. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

[whoosanightowl]

Sorry, but it's not a belief system, it's the truth. So there's nothing you can do about it except stop spitting on Jesus who paid for your sins by his death. Scorning Jesus won't change what he did for you, it won't change God, it will just hurt you even more because you don't have power over God. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Now where Aaron seems genuinely nice, YOU seem genuinely rude and obnoxious.
Yes Christianity is a BELIEF system. You BELIEVE it is the truth. I don't. Sorry but that's the way it is.

[tirtlegrrl]

Cue rebuttal that includes the phrase "knowledge of Jewish history". Three...two..one...

[kobodur]

Sorry, but it's not a belief system, it's the truth. So there's nothing you can do about it except stop spitting on Jesus who paid for your sins by his death. Scorning Jesus won't change what he did for you, it won't change God, it will just hurt you even more because you don't have power over God. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Did you just say a unrepentant sinner's sins have been paid for by Jesus' death? That must have been a mistake. You didn't turn into a univeralist for a split second, did you?

[tirtlegrrl]

Trying to pin Carico down to a specific position is like trying to hold on to a flailing freshly caught fish.

Carico, you can't just change your doctrine to whatever is most convenient for your argument at the time!

[Carico]

Trying to pin Carico down to a specific position is like trying to hold on to a flailing freshly caught fish.

Carico, you can't just change your doctrine to whatever is most convenient for your argument at the time!

Wrong. I already explained the difference between witnessing earthly events and heavenly events. But since you don't understand Christ's words, you won't understand mine either.

[tirtlegrrl]

I'm not talking about earthly events vs. heavenly events. I'm talking about schools of thought regarding texual interpretation. Sometimes you argue as though humans have the power to CHOOSE heaven or hell, and sometimes you argue as though God set up a system where humans are BORN evil and are incapable of choosing good unless God takes over and makes them believe. People who believe in Jesus disagree about these things, but you will have no success in convincing people of your own position unless you can put forth a coherent story and stick to it.

[Carico]

I'm not talking about earthly events vs. heavenly events. I'm talking about schools of thought regarding texual interpretation. Sometimes you argue as though humans have the power to CHOOSE heaven or hell, and sometimes you argue as though God set up a system where humans are BORN evil and are incapable of choosing good unless God takes over and makes them believe. People who believe in Jesus disagree about these things, but you will have no success in convincing people of your own position unless you can put forth a coherent story and stick to it.

Again, the bible is easy enough for a child to understand. 99% of the words in the bible we all learned in elementary school. Words like "but", "the", "you", "can, "cannot" etc. so the problem isn't in not understanding it, the problem is in believing it.

For example; Leviticus 20:13, "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, , both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Now you learned all those words in elementary school. But if they're still hard to understand, then you need to have a dictionary handy next time when reading the bible.

But those who've passed elementary school know what those words mean. Many people simply don't like those words so they try to change them into the opposite, which Satan loves to do. That doesn't fool those who can read any more than it fools God.

So again, 1 Corinthians 11:19 is right: "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you has God's approval." So the differences between Christians are between those who believe the bible and those who don't regardless of whether or not they claim to be sheep. It's that simple.

[tirtlegrrl]

So if the Bible's so clear, why did Paul and the Jewish church disagree about whether Gentile converts were required to observe the Jewish law? Leviticus may be clear, but what's not so clear is how much of it applies today. See: the ban on wearing mixed-fiber clothing. Does that apply or not?

Forgive me, but I think that Paul's ideas in Romans are a little more abstract than "see Spot run". And Revelation is sure as heck not clear!!! Do you actually think a sword will come from Jesus' mouth?

I hope you're aware that words take on different meanings according to their context, and that it is impossible to flawlessly translate one language to another where abstract words are involved. The Bible wasn't written in 21st century American English. Translators do their best, but they are not infallible.

Saying that the Bible is easy enough for a child to understand is avoiding the issue. I read the Bible as a "saved" kid and most of it was as unintelligible as the U.S. tax code.

What part of "People who love Jesus disagree on the meaning of certain passages" don't you understand?

[Carico]

So if the Bible's so clear, why did Paul and the Jewish church disagree about whether Gentile converts were required to observe the Jewish law? Leviticus may be clear, but what's not so clear is how much of it applies today. See: the ban on wearing mixed-fiber clothing. Does that apply or not?

Forgive me, but I think that Paul's ideas in Romans are a little more abstract than "see Spot run". And Revelation is sure as heck not clear!!! Do you actually think a sword will come from Jesus' mouth?

I hope you're aware that words take on different meanings according to their context, and that it is impossible to flawlessly translate one language to another where abstract words are involved. The Bible wasn't written in 21st century American English. Translators do their best, but they are not infallible.

Saying that the Bible is easy enough for a child to understand is avoiding the issue. I read the Bible as a "saved" kid and most of it was as unintelligible as the U.S. tax code.

What part of "People who love Jesus disagree on the meaning of certain passages" don't you understand?

The Jews didn't understand Christ' forgiveness.They were still slaves to their traditions. It's that simple. But Paul explains that to us today so there's no excuse for not understanding it.

Jesus himself said in MT. 11:25-27 that God has hidden His truth from those who claim to be wise and learned and revealed it to little children. So sorry, but the bible has to be easy enough for a child to understand and it is. [/b] But those whose faith is rocky, will fall away like you did. It sure didn't last long. So as Jesus explains, unless you come to him with the faith of a child (which takes humility and an open mind), you will never enter heaven. That means you have to stop believing that you know better than Jesus does and read the bible to try to understand what he's saying instead of to make him out to be a liar. Trying to make him a liar will be your loss not Christ's.

[tirtlegrrl]

carico wrote: The Jews didn't understand Christ' forgiveness.They were still slaves to their traditions. It's that simple. But Paul explains that to us today so there's no excuse for not understanding it.

But they were still Christians, even if they had different views on the Law of Moses. So it is possible for Christians to disagree about which rules still apply and still be "saved", contra your Corinthians quote which was taken out of context.

You didn't answer my question about which rules still apply from Leviticus. If the homosexuality rule still applies, how about the rule regarding mixed-fiber clothing?

I told you, I believed in Jesus as a kid. Not having read the whole Bible at the time, the idea was pretty appealing. When I read more of the Bible, I didn't understand most of it, and I dare you to read Romans to a six-year-old and have them explain it to you. Do you even have kids?? I find it really weird that you think the whole Bible is comprehensible to a six-year-old. Anyway, I had unwavering faith until I was 21 years old, at which point I decided to see if the Bible really was perfectly consistent with itself in all statements. I thought, if the Bible is so obviously true, only a complete moron would have any problems with it. As my comparison of the resurrection accounts shows, there are outright contradictions and after that I was never again able to believe that the Bible was inerrant or that we could know for certain who had the "correct" interpretation of the Bible, because we are INCAPABLE of avoiding our own biases and presuppositions. I also found that there are people who believe the virgin birth, subsitutionary atonement, all that jazz, and still disagree on certain passages.

Jesus himself said in MT. 11:25-27 that God has hidden His truth from those who claim to be wise and learned and revealed it to little children.

So why are all children raised in Sunday School not Christians?

You claim to believe in TULIP, the P standing for Perseverance of the Saints, yet you imply that I "fell away". I accepted Christ as a child and therefore should have been sealed against that...if, as you claim, children intuitively "get" Jesus, my conversion should have been authentic and eternally binding. If God is in fact as good as I initially believed he was, I'll be thrilled. I was taught "Jesus loves the little children", but there are passages where God does not appear to love little children who are not Israelites. Or those he predestined for hell.

You seem to have this idea that all true Christians (tm) interpret the Bible in exactly the same way and understand every last passage in the exact same way you do. If that is the case then about 98% of people who have accepted Christ are in for a nasty surprise. Imagine...you love Jesus but believe that the snake in the garden wasn't satan (after all, the text never said so)...too bad, you're going to hell!!! I have never met a Christan less charitable toward other believers than you. God can convert people just fine without your help.

[Aaron]

Does that make sense, and if so, could that possibly have been what led you through your doubts?

It's a possibility. But I could also be right; do you also admit that Christianity is a possibility (I’m sure you do)? There are many people that could be right, but I believe with all my heart that I am. I think you have hit on something very central to the Christian and Jewish faith. I don’t think its any accident that these kinds of truths cannot be known with absolute certainty. After all without faith it is impossible to please God. I think that God has created the world like this on purpose. I think he wants us to trust in Him; I think He wants us to believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. I think this life is the way it is for a very specific purpose.

[Carico]

carico wrote: The Jews didn't understand Christ' forgiveness.They were still slaves to their traditions. It's that simple. But Paul explains that to us today so there's no excuse for not understanding it.

But they were still Christians, even if they had different views on the Law of Moses. So it is possible for Christians to disagree about which rules still apply and still be "saved", contra your Corinthians quote which was taken out of context.

You didn't answer my question about which rules still apply from Leviticus. If the homosexuality rule still applies, how about the rule regarding mixed-fiber clothing?

I told you, I believed in Jesus as a kid. Not having read the whole Bible at the time, the idea was pretty appealing. When I read more of the Bible, I didn't understand most of it, and I dare you to read Romans to a six-year-old and have them explain it to you. Do you even have kids?? I find it really weird that you think the whole Bible is comprehensible to a six-year-old. Anyway, I had unwavering faith until I was 21 years old, at which point I decided to see if the Bible really was perfectly consistent with itself in all statements. I thought, if the Bible is so obviously true, only a complete moron would have any problems with it. As my comparison of the resurrection accounts shows, there are outright contradictions and after that I was never again able to believe that the Bible was inerrant or that we could know for certain who had the "correct" interpretation of the Bible, because we are INCAPABLE of avoiding our own biases and presuppositions. I also found that there are people who believe the virgin birth, subsitutionary atonement, all that jazz, and still disagree on certain passages.

Jesus himself said in MT. 11:25-27 that God has hidden His truth from those who claim to be wise and learned and revealed it to little children.

So why are all children raised in Sunday School not Christians?

You claim to believe in TULIP, the P standing for Perseverance of the Saints, yet you imply that I "fell away". I accepted Christ as a child and therefore should have been sealed against that...if, as you claim, children intuitively "get" Jesus, my conversion should have been authentic and eternally binding. If God is in fact as good as I initially believed he was, I'll be thrilled. I was taught "Jesus loves the little children", but there are passages where God does not appear to love little children who are not Israelites. Or those he predestined for hell.

You seem to have this idea that all true Christians (tm) interpret the Bible in exactly the same way and understand every last passage in the exact same way you do. If that is the case then about 98% of people who have accepted Christ are in for a nasty surprise. Imagine...you love Jesus but believe that the snake in the garden wasn't satan (after all, the text never said so)...too bad, you're going to hell!!! I have never met a Christan less charitable toward other believers than you. God can convert people just fine without your help.

Read the parable of the sower to see that out of the 4 groups of people who hear the word, only one group stands firm because that group has a root. The root is the indwelling Holy Spirit in born again Christians which is also Jesus as Jesus explains in Revelations Jesus as he explains in Rev. 22:16, 2 Corinthians 13:5, and John 14:28. "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit" because when the root is holy, so are the branches as Romans 11:16 explains.

So most people who hear the world will fall away because they are not born again any more than you were because you certainly don't know the bible! You can't believe in someone whose words you don't even know or understand.

But those who are born again of the Holy Spirit cannot fall away because the root supports them as Romans 11:18 explains along with: Romans 8:1, John 10:28, Jude 24, 1 John 3:8, 1 John 5:18, 1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 2:13, Philippians 1;6 and many many more verses confirm.

So instead of asking these questions, read your bible because you can't refute something you haven't read or don't understand.

[Penguin]

Again, the bible is easy enough for a child to understand. 99% of the words in the bible we all learned in elementary school. Words like "but", "the", "you", "can, "cannot" etc. so the problem isn't in not understanding it, the problem is in believing it.

For example; Leviticus 20:13, "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, , both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Now you learned all those words in elementary school. But if they're still hard to understand, then you need to have a dictionary handy next time when reading the bible.

If the Bible's so easy to understand, then what's your excuse for ignoring passages like 1 John 4:16 ("God is love. Whatever comes from love, comes from God") or Colossians 2:20-23?

Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

And please keep in mind in your response that Jesus reserved his harshest criticisms for hypocrites.