Would Jesus speak out against homosexuality today?

[Samwise]

Hi All, I'm wondering, does anyone who believes homosexuality is normal consider incest normal as well? For example: having sex with your mother.

I'm still on the fence on homosexuality matter btw...

Ok I don't want to play with words (natural/common/normal/good) because I know I'm not good at it. And I'm not trying to conclude such act as good/evil/moral/immoral/natural/not natural. It's more on understanding people's boundary today of sex. What is acceptable and what's not.

Basically, I'm wondering if people who does not have any problem with homosexuality, do they have problem with incest? I'm asking more on what you feel. If that means you need to analysize the impact of each act, please do share it too.

PS: Mitch, I wasn't sure whether you are commenting on my question or Jim's idea of sexual activity is normal.

[jakobk]

Hi All, I'm wondering, does anyone who believes homosexuality is normal consider incest normal as well? For example: having sex with your mother.

I'm still on the fence on homosexuality matter btw...

Ok I don't want to play with words (natural/common/normal/good) because I know I'm not good at it. And I'm not trying to conclude such act as good/evil/moral/immoral/natural/not natural. It's more on understanding people's boundary today of sex. What is acceptable and what's not.

How is acceptable any easier to deal with than natural/common/normal/good? I am struggling to understand what you want to find out. You want to know if people who find homosexuality morally acceptable also find incest morally acceptable? You want to know if those who find homosexuality to their taste also find incest to their taste?

Basically, I'm wondering if people who does not have any problem with homosexuality, do they have problem with incest? I'm asking more on what you feel. If that means you need to analysize the impact of each act, please do share it too.

For some value of have a problem with: Yes.

Regards

Jakobk

[crazylegsmurphy]

Basically, I'm wondering if people who does not have any problem with homosexuality, do they have problem with incest? I'm asking more on what you feel. If that means you need to analysize the impact of each act, please do share it too.

In humans, it does not appear that incest is common for our species. The internet has taught me that there are some families that engage in varying degrees of incest, and I assume there are cultures that consider this a part of their normal social structure. There are also a few animal species that use insect for social strengthening, and in rare times procreation, but it is far from the norm.

To my answer is, in any case where children are forced to engage in incest I consider that to be morally wrong. If a family decides however, that engaging in this type of activity is beneficial to their family structure, everyone is consenting, and has not been manipulated than no, I don't consider it morally wrong.

The fact is, like with most sexual preferences people should be free to do whatever they like as long as it doesn't take advantage of, or hurt anyone. Some could even argue that the case in which a pod of dolphins would actively approach a man who used to wade out into the shallow water and engage in sexual activity with each other isn't morally wrong. They both seemed to consent to it.

Regardless...I think I have answered your question, so perhaps you can answer mine. What does incest have to do with homosexuality? You seem to be forcing a negative association with the two for no reason other than your own personal bias.

[mitchellmckain]

Regardless...I think I have answered your question, so perhaps you can answer mine. What does incest have to do with homosexuality? You seem to be forcing a negative association with the two for no reason other than your own personal bias.

There is no worse bias than declaring certain questions to be forbidden. The challenge is to take an honest look at these two things and to explain the difference. Can you do so or can't you? That is the question. I think I can and have done so. But I won't swallow this BS about "negative associations" that insist that we must have an apriori answer that does not allow us to ask the question in the first place. This is the type of rhetoric that simply does not want to be honest or objective - and it is quite typically found in the attitudes of religion. Shall we let people hide such things from the light of reason or not?

[Samwise]

How is acceptable any easier to deal with than natural/common/normal/good? I am struggling to understand what you want to find out. You want to know if people who find homosexuality morally acceptable also find incest morally acceptable?

The word acceptable to me is more subjective than natural/common/normal/good. Like in the topic of oral sex - I find it disturbing. But that's just subjective view from me. Because of that, it does not give me the right to prohibit others to do so. Why do I want to have a subjective opinion? I hope the rest of my comment below can clarify it further.

You want to know if people who find homosexuality morally acceptable also find incest morally acceptable?

You're probably right. If the answer is no, could anyone kindly share the reason why?

What does incest have to do with homosexuality?

This is how my mind works. Basically, I don't have any problem with the relationship between two same-gender people. However, if that relationship is leading to sex, I will be in an uncomfortable zone. So I don't have a problem if two males having strong feeling with one another, it will be like best friend. So I relate that to the relationship between a son an a mother. It's very natural that a son would have a strong feeling or love to his mother. But if that feeling or relationship leads to sex, again I'm in an uncomfortable zone. So if someone that a different feeling toward homosexuality and incest, then I'd like to hear that. As long as you're being honest and sincere, it will help me a great deal in understanding homosexuality.

You seem to be forcing a negative association with the two for no reason other than your own personal bias.

It's only negative if you think incest is negative. So why is incest negative? Btw, this question brings back the feeling I had where I was skeptic to religion. When asking question is considered as an attack to the belief system...

[crazylegsmurphy]

This is how my mind works. Basically, I don't have any problem with the relationship between two same-gender people. However, if that relationship is leading to sex, I will be in an uncomfortable zone.

Why? What does sex have to do with it?

It's only negative if you think incest is negative. So why is incest negative? Btw, this question brings back the feeling I had where I was skeptic to religion. When asking question is considered as an attack to the belief system...

In the context of this site, I am wondering why incest is being used as a comparison to homosexuality. Incest is generally viewed as negative by the majority of the population so when someone says, "does anyone who believes homosexuality is normal consider incest normal as well?" to me it's like asking, "does anyone who believe mayo on a burger is normal, consider rainbows to be normal?"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but why is the comparison being made in the first place?

There is no worse bias than declaring certain questions to be forbidden. The challenge is to take an honest look at these two things and to explain the difference. Can you do so or can't you?

Why? What is the point in comparing these two things? It's not that the question is forbidden, I'm just not understanding why incest is being picked. Please help me understand.

[Samwise]

This is how my mind works. Basically, I don't have any problem with the relationship between two same-gender people. However, if that relationship is leading to sex, I will be in an uncomfortable zone.

Why? What does sex have to do with it?

Are you asking me why I'm feeling that way? I don't know. And that's the central of my struggle. But I sense the tone of your question that you do not feel that sex changes your perception to any relationship (hetero or homo). In your world, do you not think that sex can change your friendship? Or is it 'common' to have sex with any of your friends as long as no one is forced? It will leads me to think that you would be acceptable to orgy as well, as long as everyone is willing.

In the context of this site, I am wondering why incest is being used as a comparison to homosexuality. Incest is generally viewed as negative by the majority of the population so when someone says, "does anyone who believes homosexuality is normal consider incest normal as well?" to me it's like asking, "does anyone who believe mayo on a burger is normal, consider rainbows to be normal?"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but why is the comparison being made in the first place?

1. Does your view on what's negative (edit)based on the majority population view?
2. I'm not sure why you're not following my thought. I believe anyone's (or majority of people's) view toward relationship changes when sex is involved. So I believe there is a different of loving my male friend (I'm male btw) and loving him so much that I want to express it with sex. There is a different between loving your mom and loving her so much that you want to have sex with her. The analogy between mayo in burger and rainbow doesn't fit here.

You seems to be saying that incest is 'negative' because majority of people think so. However, you also feel that it is ok as long as the two people are willing to do so. Now I'm confused..

[NH Baritone]

Based on the criteria of 'acceptability,' there's no indication that incest has gained any greater degree of acceptance than at any prior time. Sex with minors or with someone you have caretaking responsibility remains a crime.

As I was dealing with my own gayness, it helped to think of it as my capacity to fall in love. While it is clearly more than that, it is certainly not less than that.

[crazylegsmurphy]

Are you asking me why I'm feeling that way? I don't know. And that's the central of my struggle. But I sense the tone of your question that you do not feel that sex changes your perception to any relationship (hetero or homo). In your world, do you not think that sex can change your friendship? Or is it 'common' to have sex with any of your friends as long as no one is forced? It will leads me to think that you would be acceptable to orgy as well, as long as everyone is willing.

First of all, an orgy would be fun to try without a doubt.

Of course sex can change a relationship, but just because it changes doesn't mean it's bad or good. Two men who love each other and choose to have sex is no more right or wrong than two straight couples, or a brother and sister, or whatever as long as they are consenting adults that are not making the choice based on any manipulation or force. I personally don't give a crap who people have sex with as long as everyone is on the same page.

Yes, I have had "friends with benefits" in the past because there were times when I just wanted to get off without the relationship. My adult friend was in the same position and that lasted until we decided we wanted something else, no harm, no foul.

1. Does your view on what's negative (edit)based on the majority population view?

Yes, at times I am influenced by the general population, but I strive to make up my own mind based on the information I gather.

2. I'm not sure why you're not following my thought. I believe anyone's (or majority of people's) view toward relationship changes when sex is involved. So I believe there is a different of loving my male friend (I'm male btw) and loving him so much that I want to express it with sex. There is a different between loving your mom and loving her so much that you want to have sex with her. The analogy between mayo in burger and rainbow doesn't fit here.

Yes, you're right...you're not getting any argument from me...but I think you still have to answer the question why does sex suddenly make it uncomfortable or "wrong?" It's like you're saying two gay men can sit across from each other while watching "Will and Grace" and stare into each others eyes, but the second they touch each other sexually then the world has gone crazy. What about sex changes it from "meh" to "Wrong?"

You seems to be saying that incest is 'negative' because majority of people think so. However, you also feel that it is ok as long as the two people are willing to do so. Now I'm confused..

Yes, I am saying exactly that. Most people are too narrow minded to even consider it past the stereotypical version of incest. I personally feel it's fine as long as two people consent to it and no one is getting hurt.

[tirtlegrrl]

NOTE: I know a couple of posts have been made since I started working on this one. Feel free to ignore any statements that no longer apply to the discussion at hand...


I think I maybe know what Samwise was getting at earlier...homosexual sex and incest both used to be considered "deviant" behaviors in Western society...that is, they deviate from the norm. I think the "norm" in this case is what the majority of the population considers "proper" sexual behavior, and they use various arguments, some biological, some religious, etc, to justify their condemnation of "deviant" behavior, viewing "deviant" as a pejorative term.

So what Samwise is wondering is if those who sanction or engage in one form of "deviant" behavior sanction other kinds of deviant behavior. Do people who are ok with same-sex relations have a different ethics of sexuality from people who take a more traditional or hard-line approach?

Incest is overwelmingly disparaged in our society, however, much more so than homosexual behavior, because it generally implies an older member of a family taking sexual advantage of a younger member. Incestual procreation is a bad idea as well from a genetic standpoint. If Samwise didn't know this, his question is pretty innocent, but if he did, it makes the question more offensive, kind of like asking (as an exaggeration): "If you're ok with anal sex, does that mean you're ok with murder?"

Samwise, if the argument for permitting certain kinds of relations (mutual consent) makes sense to you, that of course does not mean that you can't evaluate each kind of behavior, sexual or otherwise, on a case-by-case basis. Disagreeing with the majority view about "acceptable" activity doesn't mean that you have to endorse an "anything goes" philosophy...but your question could be interpreted as suggesting this and so people who HAVE developed an ethic of sexual behavior are confused that you would think acceptance of one behavior implies acceptance of another by default.

[crazylegsmurphy]

Incestual procreation is a bad idea as well from a genetic standpoint

Just to clarify. My understanding is that the risk of deformed children is quite low unless there is a gene that puts the child at risk. There are many animals on the planet that can breed with direct members of their family without any ill effects. Most times it takes many generations of interbreeding before major problems occur. This is because certain genes are passed on over and over and there isn't enough genetic diversity. All n' all, while it's a legit argument, I don't think there is much more risk of problem than in a non-incestuous relationship.

Trying to dig up some studies to show this.

[Samwise]

crazylegs, I purposely never use the word 'wrong' in my earlier posts. I use 'wrong' if I totally believe and is able to justify that it is incorrect. It's uncomfortable because I'm on the fence. It is an uncomfortable place to be, which I normally ignore in the past. So I again, I don't have the answer for your question "why I'm uncomfortable". Is the answer that I'm looking for.

tirtlegrrl, I think your sentiment on my earlier question is very close to my struggle and quite enlightening for me. Perhaps it's not the homosexuality the really bother me. Perhaps it is the transformation of our view on ethic of sexual behavior over time. I see bizarre sexual activities nowadays even in heterosexual world. I'm wondering where this transformation goes and how mankind progress to decide which is acceptable.

I admit my question is not totally innocent when it comes about knowing that incest is a bad idea from genetic standpoint (but I'm not sure the probability of it). But I don't think we can stick to that idea to identify that incest is wrong because I believe there will be a scientific breakthrough in future that will be able to resolve that. When the time comes, will incest be more acceptible? On the same time, I don't think that's offensive as well because it's the same as asking a religious people why do you believe that God is kind but on the same creates Hell to punish whoever that doesn't follow His way. It should be treated as an invite to reflect our understanding.

In my previous religion, I was told that homosexuality is the sign of the end of the world. I couldn't make a connection on that. But tirtlegrrl may somehow help me to understand. I see it now as no longer a physical destruction of the universe, but the death of religions. I can see how mankind will keep adjusting our ethical understanding which render religion becoming more irrelevant or too distant. Nevertheless if our ethical transformation is adjusting itself based on the capacity of mankind to love, then the world doesn't look like in a really bad state to me.

[Aaron]

Perhaps it's not the homosexuality the really bother me. Perhaps it is the transformation of our view on ethic of sexual behavior over time.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, there really is a God and he did create males for females and he instilled a natural desire for one another in each of us. Perhaps the reason you have trouble coming to terms with some kinds of sexual behavior is because there is part of you that feels like it just wasn't meant to be. Perhaps it is indeed your creator letting you know that some things are wrong. I find it interesting that it has been a struggle for many gays to get over their gayness. They caulk it up to getting past the culture or whatever, but perhaps it is God. Maybe he was doing all he could to let them know homosexuality is wrong without taking away their free will. I just thought since this forum is called A Christian and an Atheist I would inject a tiny amount of what Christians think, it seems however that as soon as I start talking about things like this and everyone blows up. But it makes perfect sense to me. Girls are just simply beautiful and not just in the physical sense and it just so happens that together we can procreate and start a family. I just can't get over those coincidences.

[crazylegsmurphy]

Wow, it's official...your last post discounted every bit of logic, science, and reason known to man.

Aaron, let me know when you're ready to actually listen instead of spouting off utter nonsense and we'll talk.

[tirtlegrrl]

aaron wrote: Or perhaps, just perhaps, there really is a God and he did create males for females and he instilled a natural desire for one another in each of us.

It sure ain't "natural" for gays who have ALWAYS been attracted to their own sex. Everything is "natural" in that it happens in the natural world. Cats eating mice is "natural", humans building cities is "natural", stars going supernova is "natural". Let's not confuse "natural" with "the most common natural occurances, which also happen to coincide with my personal preferences". You're also implying that what is "natural" is also "good", which is debateable even from within your own worldview. It's "natural" for a kleptomaniac to steal, do you believe that God designed kleptomania as a rightful addition to a good universe?

Girls are just simply beautiful and not just in the physical sense and it just so happens that together we can procreate and start a family. I just can't get over those coincidences.

So aspects of the world that are useful or appealing to you, Aaron, are evidence of specific design by God expressly for the specific function that you happened to notice? Have you been watching Ray Comfort's "design of the banana" video or something?

Consider the sentences below according to your own logic above...

"Hitler hated Jews and it just so happened that he was able to acheive power and kill them! I just can't get over that coincidence. Must have been God!"

"Gay men (and women) find each other beautiful and it just so happens that they can acheive sexual pleasure together...and it just so happens that a small percentage of the population is gay...I just can't get over that coincidence. Must have been God!"