Aaron wrote:Of course I also believe that we have the bible to make sure our moral compass is aligning with God's perfect moral standard. So looking at morality from my point of view we see that murder, lying, and stealing are just as bad as homosexuality or adultery or idolatry. Each of these things is not only a wrong against yourself, or those around you but also against God and what he has made sacred. When sex is perverted in any of the numerous ways people have found to pervert it today it is a direct attack on what God has created to be pure and holy.
I've read the Bible, cover-to-cover, eight times. I've also read the NT in its entirety several more times, and several books of the OT and NT quite a few more times. I've read several different translations, with several different "study notes" and commentaries accompanying them.
If murder, lying, stealing, adultery, and idolatry are "just as bad as" homosexuality, how come there's no "Thou Shalt Not Have Sex With Same Sex Partners" commandment, while there are separate commandments for each of the others?
As to the bit about Jesus not speaking out against homosexuality, well I don't agree. Technically Jesus is God and God did speak out against homosexuality.
Well, "technically", Jesus is not
God; you believe
Jesus is God. That's not the same thing. Nonetheless, I don't buy that "easy out" explanation, that Jesus is God, and therefore it was Jesus speaking in OT rules about homosexuality. (In reality, those were more likely Moses' words (or whoever else might have written them), and not the words of God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit.) You dig yourself quite a deep hole, with no way out, if you want to stick to the claim that anything quoted in the Bible as being from God or Jesus is interchangeable as to who really said it. You don't want to go there. Jesus could speak for himself, and appears to have done quite
well at it.
You say you believe we get our moral values from our consciences, but that we get that from God. So you're saying we get our morals from God, as well as our sense of them. I'm sure there's a difference there.... But, if we get our moral values from God, do we get them through revelation (scripture, nature, personal, etc.), or do we get them through "instillation" (they're somehow instilled upon our hearts, minds, and souls... or whatever)? How can we distinguish between moral values we received from God and moral values we developed ourselves and received from other human beings? How can you tell? And what does it matter where they came from, so long as we all practice them? If we both believe murder is wrong, and act accordingly, who cares where we get that value from?
You are looking at morality as to how it affects those around you and yourself. I am looking at how it first affects God, then others and finally my self.
How do you know how it affects God? Is it only because you believe the Bible is God's word and he tells you what's right and wrong? Was there no sense of right and wrong before there was a Bible? I think you're kidding yourself. You have no idea how things affect God. You're only guessing. But like me, you have a pretty good idea how things affect you, and maybe other people, and I think that's how you determine your moral values. After you've done that, then you assign those values to God and claim he gave 'em to you.
Also way back in Genisis it is believed that when Abraham is visted by "the angel of the Lord" this is refering to Jesus. So perhaps when the three men came to Abramham and spilled the beans about the coming judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah the man who stayed behind with Abraham was Jesus. But I don't expect you to accept any of that. I just thought I'd point it out.
Well, "just pointing it out" doesn't make it any less baseless and ridiculous. Claiming "it is believed" as some level of authority is absurd.