Is your faith dependent on literal biblical interpretation?

[tony.n]

Tone my friend, you are a blessing in my life. I am glad we are taking this leg of the journey together. Thank you for finding this place and inviting me here. xx

[/quote]

Actually Sharmie I found the board after some desperate prayer; I was losing my way. You seem happier already just being here. I think you'll make some good friends here too.

Dad cares about us kids.

Tone

[mitchellmckain]

I think you are most definitely a heretic, and would have been burned at the stake at certain times in history. Since I would have shared that fate, I therefore see you as a kindred spirit.

So, would you say that your relationship with Christ does not include worship?

I am always glad to meet another kindred spirit. : )

My relationship with Christ does include worship. I am a Christian and even with my heretic leanings, there are still certain fundamental things I do that are worship. Lifting my hands during prayer or song, tithing my time, my posessions, my money, offering thanks at meal times, bowing my head and falling to my knees when I pray. Those things are worship. But, while they are part of how I relate with God, they are not the foundation. Worship doesn't give me the meat and potatoes I need to sustain me. For that, I need a real relationship—founded on respect, openness, approachability... You see I don't need a perfect God, I just need an approachable God. I don't care if you love me perfectly, I just care if you love me unconditionally. I can't relate to perfect. And, I'm not convinced that God is perfect. But then, I don't need him to be.

Yep, I am a heretic.

Depends on what "heretic" means. If it means that you use the brain that God gave you and think for yourself, then yeah join the club. But I don't think this was original meaning that Christianity attached to the word, which was someone who cut Christianity down to fit themselves and started proclaiming that people who do not understand Christianity the way that they do are not Christians. According to latter definition, the LDS and the JW are heretics, but I am not a heretic no matter how peculiar my opinions on issues of docrine may be, because I don't expect anyone to share my opinions let alone try to be the gatekeeper to what is Christian.

[Sharmie]

Depends on what "heretic" means.

Well, I was actually being tounge-in-cheek. However, I do believe that at certain points in Christian history, to say "I don't believe God is perfect" would have been considered heresy. Especially if it was said in a public forum where others could be tempted to consider such an unorthodox view. It is my understanding that the term heretic applies to anyone—group or an individual—who challenges the Church's authority. And challenging the Church's authority is something I do with vehemence....

[Angela]

I consider what I have as a relationship; father and daughter, mentor and apostle, teacher and student, Master Po and Grasshopper. I am not afraid to voice doubts, question motives, have arguments, voice disapproval, and proffer opinion.

I'm going to make a confession here. I am in the habit of having long, deep conversations with myself. I talk to me and me talks back. Often I disagree with myself. Your description above of your talks with God would be a good one for these discussions myself and I engage in; we "voice doubts, question motives, have arguments, voice disapproval, and proffer opinion." These discussions can be fascinating (if I do say so myself, ), and at the end of them I often have valuable insights into whatever the subject was. (Since I'm in confessional mode here, I guess I also have to admit that occasionally the talk is mostly inane drivel.) In these conversations, sometimes myself and I sound like two friends, sometimes like mother/daughter, sometimes like teacher/student.

I need a real relationship—founded on respect, openness, approachability... You see I don't need a perfect God, I just need an approachable God. I don't care if you love me perfectly, I just care if you love me unconditionally. I can't relate to perfect. And, I'm not convinced that God is perfect. But then, I don't need him to be.

I can also relate to what you say here, again completely outside of a religious context. I find this to be an excellent description of what I strive for in my relationship with myself. As I have gotten older (ok, one more confession: I'm 37), I have gotten better at accepting and respecting myself, and at being open to all aspects of my personality, even those that are less than perfect. I've gotten pretty good at loving myself unconditionally. (I know I'm teetering on the brink of sounding like an 80's self-help book, sorry.) The improvement in my relationship with myself has made a big difference in my level of happiness and in my relationship with others.

So you probably see what I'm getting at here. It seems very plausible to me that this God you have a relationship with is inside of you. That's what I think was going on when I was a Christian. I don't think it makes the relationship any less valid or transformative or important. And I think it's fine if you want to call the wise, kind, loving (add or subtract adjectives here as you like) part of yourself that you talk to God. But I found that allowing the something more out of the God box makes it free to be whatever it truly is, without the restrictions that a definition requires.

I hope that all makes sense. And just let me know if you'd rather not hear any more of my confessions.

[Rian]

*swats the pesky non-believers out of the Christian forum*

Sorry, I'm new here. You're right, I shouldn't have intruded. Lesson learned.

It's ok with me, as I told Angela - as long as it doesn't get argumentative here.

[whoosanightowl]

*swats the pesky non-believers out of the Christian forum*

Sorry, I'm new here. You're right, I shouldn't have intruded. Lesson learned.

It's ok with me, as I told Angela - as long as it doesn't get argumentative here.

Well I have no excuse since I've been around a long time, I just didn't notice it was on the Christian page. Sorry, I'll try to be more careful.

[mitchellmckain]

I'm going to make a confession here. I am in the habit of having long, deep conversations with myself. I talk to me and me talks back. Often I disagree with myself. Your description above of your talks with God would be a good one for these discussions myself and I engage in; we "voice doubts, question motives, have arguments, voice disapproval, and proffer opinion." These discussions can be fascinating (if I do say so myself, ), and at the end of them I often have valuable insights into whatever the subject was. (Since I'm in confessional mode here, I guess I also have to admit that occasionally the talk is mostly inane drivel.) In these conversations, sometimes myself and I sound like two friends, sometimes like mother/daughter, sometimes like teacher/student.

It is one of those bizzare ironies that contrary to popular myth talking to oneself is actually a sign of psychological health rather than the other way around. Modern psychological theory (Carl Rogers) is that the councelor's main function is to help those lacking in this skill of self-comunication to do exactly that. HOWEVER, we are asuming that you are really are talking to yourself and not some schitzophrenic hallucination and we are assuming that there is the normal amount of self control so that one does not carry a conversation with oneself in the presence of other people. It is probably these latter cases which are the source of the popular myth about talking to yourself.

However, I think that sometimes a breakthrough in therapy comes from a realization that one of the voice talking to you which you think is yourself is really the voice of a domineering parent or spouse -- just thought that this would also be good to keep in mind especially if there are roles like you suggest.

[Rian]

Well I have no excuse since I've been around a long time, I just didn't notice it was on the Christian page. Sorry, I'll try to be more careful.

That's ok with me - you're never argumentative (in the bad way)

I've posted a few times on the atheist forum, too, and have been chased off sometimes, and sometimes not.

I don't know, maybe I shouldn't have made that post - I'm not sure what my thoughts are on these separate forums - I do know that I don't like when atheists take an argumentative (in the bad sense) tone in the Christian forum. But these posts have been good posts. I don't know ... what do the other people think?

[Sharmie]

It is one of those bizzare ironies that contrary to popular myth talking to oneself is actually a sign of psychological health rather than the other way around.

You mean I've actually been sane all of this time and didn't know it!!! YAY <happy dance>

[whoosanightowl]

Well I have no excuse since I've been around a long time, I just didn't notice it was on the Christian page. Sorry, I'll try to be more careful.

That's ok with me - you're never argumentative (in the bad way)

I've posted a few times on the atheist forum, too, and have been chased off sometimes, and sometimes not.

I don't know, maybe I shouldn't have made that post - I'm not sure what my thoughts are on these separate forums - I do know that I don't like when atheists take an argumentative (in the bad sense) tone in the Christian forum. But these posts have been good posts. I don't know ... what do the other people think?

I agree Rian, keeping it civil is the most important thing, and that's not always easy to do.
But I think it's better if everyone (Christians/Atheists--or whichever end each person leans closer to) tries to stick to discussing topics in their own separate threads rather than treading on each others space. Private discussions among fellow believers concerning their faith is not something atheists should get involved in, especially in a negative way, and the same goes the other way as well. That was the purpose for these threads in the first place, otherwise we could all just discuss every topic in the general forum. Read but don't post (or at least only rarely) is perhaps the best policy, although I'm as guilty as anyone for not paying attention to which heading a topic is being discussed under.
But that is just my opinion, and I must say that I really haven't noticed any Christians overstepping any boundaries in the Atheist forum--at least not that I remember.