A safe place for the newbies

[Kiwi]

There are a few new recruits lurking around here. I thought we should have the forum equivalent of a church newcomer's lunch. Make yourself known.

Welcome, who are you, what brings you here?

I live in New Zealand. I stumbled onto these boards after discovering the losingmyreligion website, which pointed me towards the podcasts, and lastly the forums. It took me ages to commit to registering. Firstly I'm not a big web geek and secondly there are some awe-inspiring debates here.

My interest in these forums is mostly emotional. (Not the right word, but a good start.) What I mean by that is I'm not here for an argument, but to find people who have gone through a similar experience to me. I went through a year or two of very lonely trauma while I gave my worldview a full shakedown and upheaval. I spent a lot of time looking for like minded people on the internet (because I don't know any in person.) After trawling through bitter ex-christian websites I found emery's write up at losingmyreligion and then the podcasts. I watched for a few months then dove in.

I've been really impressed with some of the posts and discussion here. Terrified by others. Last night I read through most of the discussion on the Cardinal Virtues podcast, what a roller coaster that was!

Probably like most of us, I don't really have enough time to devote to living online here. There's a full time job, three kids and plenty of other hobbies to maintain. But I want to stick around.

Look forward to hearing from you all.

[KomradRed]

Mitch directed me here after I asked about his exodus from a previous forum. Mitch has an interesting and thoughtful view on faith and while I disagree with him on several issues, like good works, and am more of a mystical universalist, I find his interpretations of faith inspired. I lurk far more than I post as I enjoy reading what other people have to say as I believe God, truth, or whatever you want to call it has many forms of expression in the universe.

[Sharmie]

Tony directed me here after my long-time board was taken over by a lunatic hell-bent on preventing anyone from having a decent discussion or debate. I have mostly been reading as of late; but I hope to participate more in the future.

[whoosanightowl]

Welcome to all our newbies! I'm looking forward to hearing your ideas!

[Kiwi]

Mitch has an interesting and thoughtful view on faith and while I disagree with him on several issues, like good works, and am more of a mystical universalist, I find his interpretations of faith inspired.

Greetings Komrad and welcome. Care to unpack 'mystical universalist' a bit further? I can guess what you mean but I'd like to hear it from you. And what's one of the key things you disagree with Mitch on?

And since I'm in question-asking mode, what are the Christians who are new to the forum looking for here? I'm fascinated by people's motives on this board. (It's my first experience with a forum.) In my Christian days, I figure my only reason for being here would have been to convert the atheists, even if under the guise of being open minded. That probably says more about me than your, so no pre-judgement intended.

[KomradRed]

Well okay then. While I consider myself a Roman Catholic and believe Christ to be Son of God who sacrificed himself to pay humanity's debt, I do not believe that people attain salvation/enlightenment through a belief or knowledge of the Christian faith. For example, is Peasant Bob in Gupta India doomed to eternal hellfire because he did not believe in Christ and his sacrifice, much less know it existed? What I am saying here is that I dont believe that people are saved by special knowledge. I believe Jesus was God-incarnate, yet around the world, when you study religions like Hinduism, Islam, Confucianism, Taoism, and even atheistic faiths like Buddhism, the core beliefs are altruistic ones. Do unto others as you would like done unto yourself, fight injustice wherever you see, a worldwide call to fight evil and serve your fellow man, to quote a Christmas jingle, do good for good's sake. I believe that at their basic levels, all altruistic religions have been inspired by God and that all these paths lead to the same destination, the advancement of man from the child-like phase we exist in now. I say childlike because I believe human beings have the potential to rise above our station, to love, care, and help each other unconditional while working to create a better reality than what we have had before, to be more like God, yet like children, we are inhibited by our almost limitless capacity to harm and do evil to one another. To quote the anime series Cowboy Bebop "there is nothing more sadistic than a child." I believe God, through the altruistic religions, seeks to help us, to teach us that we should love another and be more like Him, yet He simply cannot force us to do what we should do. To force us to do good would be a violation of our free will and would corrupt whatever lessen we were being. God will always be there to comfort, teach, and help us if we let Him, yet we must also work to advance ourselves. God will help, but we cant expect Him to do everything.

Ultimately I believe human beings experience the Divine in a subjective manner. Someone see's a particularly powerful natural phenomena, another visits a sacred religious site and is overcome with awe and other powerful emotions. While the skeptic in me says that is perfectly natural for one to feel awe-inspired by a powerful force, the mystic in me believes that humanity is searching for something grander, something more beautiful and perfect than we can even imagine.

In short, I am a universalist because I believe that various religions throughout the are altruistic in nature and are ultimately inspired by God, that special knowledge isn't the key to enlightenment or salvation, and that ultimately God wishes to see us grow and be more like Him, but we must work to do good, to devote our lives to altruistic pursuits. What im saying is I dont believe there is a measuring device that grants to salvation to people who achieve X number of karma points, but that we must give ourselves over totally, in both mind and body, to helping others and trying to be more like God. We will fail of course, but it is our desire to do better, to leave behind our immature hatreds and vices, that leads to our salvation.

I realize I haven't fleshed it out all that well and that it may be confusing to read, but I hope that helps a bit.

I disagree with mitch over works, faith, and how exactly we achieve salvation. Mitch comes from the Protestant camp of Christianity and adheres to Justification by Faith, or Sola Fide. He believes that we are saved by our faith in God and His sacrifice alone. X number of good works will not save you, however, he also believes Faith without works is essentially dead. I come from the Catholic tradition which believes that justification is through both faith and works. A man will be measured up to his works, to show who among us is truly righteous and faithful. Ultimately I reject Mitch's interpretation because if Peasant Bob in 4th century India had never heard of Christianity, he would not be able to be saved by an act of faith, and according to several sects, would be doomed to hellfire and such, although I am pretty sure Mitch does not believe anything like that. As I stated previously, I believe all human beings can achieve salvation through altruistic actions/works. After all, a good work done for selfish or evil reasons isn't necessarily a good work.

I mainly join these forums to learn about other people's views on faith, the divine, and whatnot. Thing I've noticed a while on forums is that atheists, either through their views on religion, or through baiting by theists, usually spend more time arguing with the religious rather than talking about their beliefs, how they live their lives, and whatnot. I guess im saying I'd rather hear atheists say how they live their lives rather than argue about the authenticity of Christ's foreskin supposedly in some church in Syria.

[mitchellmckain]

And since I'm in question-asking mode, what are the Christians who are new to the forum looking for here?

I'm not exactly a newbie, but I am hardly old guard either -- only been here 2 months after all. So I feel a little funny offering a welcome the way that whoosanightowl did.

Anyway, I cannot resist answering this question.

I don't buy into the two camp or closed set ministry model. Instead I think Scott Peck is onto something with his alternating idea of spiritual development and I like the open set ministry model. So for me the goal isn't to pull people into the Christian camp at all. I really will sit on the fence and push in both directions -- attacking the faulty arguments of Christian and atheist alike. I see it as worthwhile to apply a little skepticism and overcome inadequate religion to gain a more rational perspective in atheism, but I also see it as worthwhile to recognize the limitations of reason and objectivity to explore the ideas of Christianity in a different light.

I just wanted to answer this question, so my apologies but I will refuse to pursue this topic any further in this thread which was created for a different purpose, so if you want to discuss this more, please start a new thread for it.

[michael-45]

I was searching for Christian sites when this link popped up. I like the idea of having rational discussions without the temper tantrums, but it remains to be seen if this is actually the case. I hope it is. As a Christian, I must say that I pray unbelievers come to Christ, so I don't know if I can remain distant and unemotional. I suppose a good analogy would be if there were a hundred of us lost in the desert dying of thirst. One of us finds a spring with enough water to save us all, wouldn't that person call the others so that they might drink? It's that way when Christ comes into your heart. You don't want to hurt or "bother" anyone, but it's incredibly hard not to share the good news and wish it for your neighbors.

[humanguy]

You don't want to hurt or "bother" anyone, but it's incredibly hard not to share the good news and wish it for your neighbors.

Even if those neighbors appear to be doing perfectly alright on their own? Let's take your spring in the desert example. What if there was more than one spring, in fact let's say there are at least several springs. Would you still feel compelled to tell others about your spring?

[Kiwi]

You don't want to hurt or "bother" anyone, but it's incredibly hard not to share the good news and wish it for your neighbors.

Yes, Michael, I know exactly what you mean. I used to say to my non-Christian friends, 'the biggest problem I have with my faith is that, by definition, I have to assume that I am right and that you are wrong.' I am sure you won't be able to remain distant and unemotional, but it is good that you recognise and admit it up front.

As an interesting contrast we have Mitch who likes to play devil's or God's advocate, depending on who the discussion is with. That's actually closer to where I sit in terms of debate because it's the best way - and also the most fun way - to flesh out an issue.

I guess im saying I'd rather hear atheists say how they live their lives rather than argue about the authenticity of Christ's foreskin supposedly in some church in Syria.

That's cool, I respect that and would like to see that too, especially as a new atheist who has to now formulate some new ways of looking at the world.

[whoosanightowl]

I was searching for Christian sites when this link popped up. I like the idea of having rational discussions without the temper tantrums, but it remains to be seen if this is actually the case. I hope it is. As a Christian, I must say that I pray unbelievers come to Christ, so I don't know if I can remain distant and unemotional. I suppose a good analogy would be if there were a hundred of us lost in the desert dying of thirst. One of us finds a spring with enough water to save us all, wouldn't that person call the others so that they might drink? It's that way when Christ comes into your heart. You don't want to hurt or "bother" anyone, but it's incredibly hard not to share the good news and wish it for your neighbors.

Hi Michael-45,
There's no need to remain distant or unemotional on this forum, just try to keep it real and as courteous as possible. Many of us have formed some pretty strong bonds even though we heartily disagree on many different topics. That's what keeps it interesting around here!
There's nothing wrong with wanting others to taste from your fountain, which you find produces the most delicious and thirst quenching water imaginable. Just remember there are others with their own fountains which they find just as delicious and thirst quenching, many of which have already tasted from your fountain and for one reason or another it just didn't sit well with them, just as those other fountains might not sit well with you.

[Rian]

Welcome newbies!

[Sharmie]

I am here because I am in constant exploration. I am a Christian. I believe in God. At one point in time, I was a fundamentalist and a creationist. But as I've grown, my questions have grown; and with these questions, my 'take' on what is and is not true and believable has changed. At one point, I even attempted to shed belief in god entirely. It didn't work; as my experiences have shaped me as a person, so have they enforced a belief in something (I call him God). From what I've read so far, I would say that Mitch and I share a lot of the same views and opinions. In fact, a few moments ago I started to respond to a thread and saw that Mitch had already written what I was thinking.

I am here for exploration, validation, correction, comraderie, and companionship. If we ever do resolve the issue of "is there a god", I'll probably be disappointed. This is a journey I really enjoy.

[Kiwi]

I am here for exploration, validation, correction, comraderie, and companionship. If we ever do resolve the issue of "is there a god", I'll probably be disappointed. This is a journey I really enjoy.

I read once that proving the existence of God is a never-ending process that does not expect a conclusion. I have to agree with you, as nuts as I have driven myself trying to resolve the question of God, I'd hate to have it definitively sown up for all time. What would we do then?

[KomradRed]

Hug each other? Work together to build a better world after all the hugging? Hug some more?