Coming out as an atheist

[tirtlegrrl]

if i was American i suspect it would have a bigger deal!

Hoo boy yeah! Here, most people would vote for almost anyone, including a member of the opposite party, before supporting an atheist.

[Magenta]

I've noticed you've mentioned a lot about god, but haven't said anything about your church.

Hi Exrev, the reason that I haven’t mentioned my church is that I have no quarrel with it. There is loads of misinformation out there with regard to the JWs, and yes, I have investigated them thoroughly. They have nothing to hide. They have never claimed to be infallible (like the pope), and have sometimes been mistaken, but that doesn’t mean that they set out to deliberately deceive anyone. They are genuinely concerned for others and believe that they are fulfilling the prophecy at Matthew 24:14 which states that the good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth, and then the end will come. As they are currently active in 236 lands, they are anticipating the end to be in the near future. There is no doubt that an identifying mark of the JWs is the love among themselves (John 13:35) and I have been the recipient of that love.

However, they also believe that every single command must be followed to the letter. So when a baptized JW is unrepentant of a sin, they are to be shunned. (1 Cor 5:11-13) Before this is done though, the elders will try to reason with that person to come to their senses. Even the disfellowshipping is done, firstly to keep the congregation clean, and secondly to help the wrongdoer to see the error of his ways. The problem with this is that (I believe) many make a come back purely to be able to have contact with their family and friends – it’s lonely out there. So, while I’m sitting there like a hypocrite because I don’t want to alienate my daughter, I think there are a whole lot of others that are there for the wrong reasons. Also, disfellowshipping is not always consistent, because although Bible principles are followed, in the end it is humans making the choice, no matter how much they think the spirit has guided them to their decision - a decision which is not to be questioned. The Bible tell us that god’s commandments are not burdensome (1John 5:3) – but they are! They are burdensome, often obscure, and extremely divisive.

So, really, my argument is with the god the JWs worship and not the people who are trying so desperately to do exactly what that god requires – no matter what the personal sacrifice may be. John 17:3 is a scripture often used in their door-to-door work as it tells us that we can gain everlasting life by taking in knowledge of god and his son – ironically, it’s the taking in of knowledge that has led me to my conclusion that he is manipulative, malevolent and narcissistic. I’m working towards convincing myself that he doesn’t exist – that would be preferable to believing that we are all at the mercy of this clearly unstable being.

[Exrev]

You in a sticky situation that is for sure. I hope everything works out for you.

[OzAnt]

Hi Magenta,

This forum is incredible helpful - and I'm back to stay.

Welcome to your return to this forum!

Sorry I didn't get to this thread sooner, but here's some thoughts anyway...

Sooner or later I must leave the pretense behind...

It's a difficult step. The sense of God testing your faith is a bitch to shake.

I’m still in the closet at the moment and assimilating stacks of information.

And, hey, that's fine. In fact it's probably preferable to coming out of the closet half cocked. When you do come out of the closet Christians will either shun you or go the other extreme, which is to burden you with all their fears and concerns. It's the latter ones that actually care for you, so it's in a nasty spot to be in, because they've got [they believe] your best interests at heart - and yet it's these ones that you need to be most prepared for. Taking your time is, in my opinion, a good policy here.

My biggest reason for continuing to be in the closet right now is my reluctance to disappoint my daughter – and I know that if I leave the JWs, she will be deeply disappointed.

As distressing as this inevitably is, you're also setting an example. Which is to say that you might potentially be pleasantly surprised by having set a positive example. We can only hope...

So I go through the motions, knowing that God can read my heart, and he knows that I have contempt for him – scary for me to put into words – but there it is.

Something that helped me through this was changing my thoughts to "what if denouncing the God of the Bible is the real test?" I mean, how better to demonstrate intelligence to an intelligent being?

She is already very sad (but resolved to remaining loyal to Jehovah) about not being permitted to associate with her brother – I don’t want to add to her sadness.

Surely your son will be over the moon though, won't he (I'm assuming she's not allowed to talk to her brother because he left?)? And there's that damn faith at the helm again; resolved. The only solace that I can offer here is that you probably would have had just as much resolve once, yet now you don't. And she is your daughter...

They have never claimed to be infallible (like the pope), and have sometimes been mistaken, but that doesn’t mean that they set out to deliberately deceive anyone.

Oh yes they do! JWs are of the opinion that you can't know the whole truth just by reading the Bible - which contradicts what's written in 2 Tim 3:16-17 of the Bible they carry. The implication of this is that you need Watchtower literature to know the 'complete' truth. There's deliberate deception right there!

They are genuinely concerned for others...

Individual members, such as you once were, genuinely are concerned for others - this is not necessarily representative of what's going on back at mission control though.

...and believe that they are fulfilling the prophecy at Matthew 24:14 which states that the good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth, and then the end will come.

They've been predicting the end for a bloody long time, Magenta (it all started back in 1844 - the year that became known as the Great Disappointment. This event gave birth to most prominently SDAs and eventually JWs).

Just a few thoughts. I wish you all the best, Magenta. And I'll keep an eye on this thread too as best as I can. However, please don't interpret my silence as a lack of interest - I just get sidetracked with real life a fair bit

Warm regards,
Ant

[Magenta]

Hi OzAnt,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. I've been reading the forums, but have just not had the motivation to participate - battling a bit with health issues and depression. I have so much buzzing around in my head right now, that I just can't seem to cope. Nevertheless, I enjoy the different viewpoints and the honesty of those expressing them. With hind-sight being 20/20, I should never have let the JWs through my front door - it has ripped my family apart.

[Brad]

Magenta,
What ever your physical health issues are, I hope and trust you have access to competent, compassionate, and scientific rather than faith-based medical care. Yes?

About the depression thing, I can only express my empathy and solidarity with you in this regard, because I've definitely been there and done that - in a BIG way.
I think the combination of conflict with rigid and demanding religious circumstances and family divisions and threats of divisions that are created by the religion has got to be one of the most psychologically stressful situations a person can face. Several people, having heard about the circumstances of my own life and family over the last ten years have told me I should write a book about it - which I may attempt to do some years down the road.

But I got through the worst of it, and I'm sure you can, too!

Aside from making sure I kept in touch with friends who were outside my family situation and who had a positive outlook on life, one thing I did and still do is to keep in mind that everything WILL change sooner or later. Any suffering or grief or irritation we have now will change at some point and will eventually cease by one means or another. Keeping that in mind has often helped me handle problems with more calmness and optimism that would otherwise have been the case. Otherwise, when something is really weighing on you, it often seems like it will last forever, doesn't it?
I learned to practice this tactic by hearing talks on the Buddhist views on the impermanence of all things.
I hope thinking along that line might be of use to you, as well.

In any event, as always, there are a number of us here rooting for more peace and happiness in your future - starting right away!

[Kiwi]

The further adventures of an emerging atheist


Okay so I'm joining the church music team again. I used to be a worship leader and musician there. After a four year hiatus I have offered myself back as a pianist. Had a coffee with our pastor about it and he's comfortable with the idea of an unbelieving lost soul such as myself contributing to the church worship scene.

My situation for the past year has been a mutual arrangement with my wife that I attend church every second week. In practice it means I'm there once a month or so. I'm finding this unsatisfactory now. If we didn't have kids I'd quite happily not attend at all. But I've come to realize that our family is part of the church community and I am part of my family so therefore I am part of the church community. Taking a long term view I can't expect to un-evangelize my wife and kids, so I have to consider how best to engage with the community we are part of. I don't want to spend the next five years trudging along and sitting gloomily through the service and leaving as fast as I can afterwards. It's not fair on my family and I'll drive myself nuts.

So I've decided it's about people, particularly my family. Plus I love playing the piano - and the piano at our church happens to be a rather tasty grand. If I'm going to be part of this community I might as well do something I enjoy - even if I have to accompany awful songs. The irony isn't lost on me that I'll be spending more time there, but that's okay. It's like when I had to do an assignment at school that I didn't want to do: I'd usually end up choosing a topic that took me MORE effort just because it was more interesting.

This is where I'd expect crazylegsmurphy to dive in and say "what the??"

Hope things are going well for you Magenta. Or if not well, then at least not UN-well!

[NH Baritone]

The further adventures of an emerging atheist


Okay so I'm joining the church music team again. I used to be a worship leader and musician there. After a four year hiatus I have offered myself back as a pianist. Had a coffee with our pastor about it and he's comfortable with the idea of an unbelieving lost soul such as myself contributing to the church worship scene.

My situation for the past year has been a mutual arrangement with my wife that I attend church every second week. In practice it means I'm there once a month or so. I'm finding this unsatisfactory now. If we didn't have kids I'd quite happily not attend at all. But I've come to realize that our family is part of the church community and I am part of my family so therefore I am part of the church community. Taking a long term view I can't expect to un-evangelize my wife and kids, so I have to consider how best to engage with the community we are part of. I don't want to spend the next five years trudging along and sitting gloomily through the service and leaving as fast as I can afterwards. It's not fair on my family and I'll drive myself nuts.

So I've decided it's about people, particularly my family. Plus I love playing the piano - and the piano at our church happens to be a rather tasty grand. If I'm going to be part of this community I might as well do something I enjoy - even if I have to accompany awful songs. The irony isn't lost on me that I'll be spending more time there, but that's okay. It's like when I had to do an assignment at school that I didn't want to do: I'd usually end up choosing a topic that took me MORE effort just because it was more interesting.

This is where I'd expect crazylegsmurphy to dive in and say "what the??"

Hope things are going well for you Magenta. Or if not well, then at least not UN-well!

So how you going to manage when you have to play while the congregation sings:

"Amazing Grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a WRETCH like me!"

or

"When I survey the wondrous cross
on which the Prince of Glory died;
my richest gain I count but loss,
and pour contempt on all my pride."

Is that the kind of thinking you want to instill, drop by drop, into your head? Into your children's heads?

Why can't you go to church every other week and then have your wife and family join you at a non-church outing on alternate weeks? It sounds like you're being bullied into submission rather than treated as an equal.

[Kiwi]

I know, I know. And there are worse lyrics to come. At least I won't have to sing them. The alternative is I'm standing in the pews listening, which is actually more awful - this way I get to have a legitimate distraction of playing some music. (Probably once a month on the roster.)

I'm not being bullied into submission, it's my own proactive choice. In a long standing marriage which has always had a very Christian foundation, I'm the one who opted out of belief in God. I have to respect that. I'm still working out how to negotiate this tight-rope journey.

[marcuspnw]

I know, I know. And there are worse lyrics to come. At least I won't have to sing them. The alternative is I'm standing in the pews listening, which is actually more awful - this way I get to have a legitimate distraction of playing some music. (Probably once a month on the roster.)

I'm not being bullied into submission, it's my own proactive choice. In a long standing marriage which has always had a very Christian foundation, I'm the one who opted out of belief in God. I have to respect that. I'm still working out how to negotiate this tight-rope journey.

Good luck, Kiwi! I know how awkward it is to be silent while everyone around you is singing loudly about beliefs that you no longer accept. By participating in the music and maybe concentrating on your performance as opposed to the lyrics, you might make this work for you and your family. Church is something that the rest of your family enjoys and so you want to be a part of it if you can. (I guess you could help out in the nursery as well.) I find your willingness to sacrifice your own desires for your family commendable as long as this is really your free choice. NH Baritone makes a good point though that your family should recognize what you are doing for them and on occasion reciprocate. It's only fair.

Does your church favor the old standards or the more contemporary sound? In the U.S., I have known several congregations that split apart over the style of music offered during the worship service.

[Kiwi]

Our church has a pretty typical run of the mill bland straight forward contemporary style of music. I once read a magnificent book by Marva Dawn years ago called Reaching Out Without Dumbing Down, all about the 'worship wars' between styles of music. Her view is that church music should be far more eclectic and varied depending on the subject of the song and the topic of the service. I agree, but accept that when you've got a small team, a piano, a drum kit, some microphones and a repertoire of rather inane songs then you're going to get the aforementioned run of the mill bland straight forward contemporary style. But that's a conversation that belongs in the christian forum.

It's important to note the context here: I've been going to church all my life. I'm very familiar with it all - there's nothing I'm going to hear or feel that could possibly contaminate me any further. So I'm not bothered by the prospect of instilling more christian ideology into my already very full head. The issue of how I raise my children is a much larger, thornier one. My starting point is that I have no right to pull the plug on their religious upbringing just because I have personally reneged on the deal. I don't think I've earned that right yet. I certainly will need to be honest with them about what I believe (or don't) when the time comes. Compared to playing the piano for grown ups as they sing, I'd feel less comfortable helping with the children's programmes where they do bible studies and bible activities for the kids.

My wife has been really good about not pressuring me into going to church. It's a journey for her too, having an atheist husband. In the meantime, as long as I'm going to church, I'm going to play a little music there because in a perverse kind of way I suspect it might help keep me sane!

[Brad]

Hey there, Kiwi,

Had a coffee with our pastor about it and he's comfortable with the idea of an unbelieving lost soul such as myself contributing to the church worship scene.

That’s remarkable and wonderful, both that you could have such a discussion at all and that your pastor would take such an “ecumenical” view!
I’m curious, though, did the pastor caution or threaten in a veiled way against expressing your different view among his flock? If not, that would be all the more impressive!

I find your willingness to sacrifice your own desires for your family commendable as long as this is really your free choice.

+1!
I’d guess that you’ll still find the earnestness of the believers in your church endearing. And especially in the context of the music, I’d guess you’ll even occasionally be moved by “the spirit” of the whole thing. I know I would. The recipe for the stew of emotional manipulation intended to “keep the faith” has been well-honed over thousands of years, after all.
But now that you’ve seen the light, if you’ll pardon an American country music pun, I’ll bet you’ll most often see the religious aspects of your church-going now with sort of an anthropological detachment, which will help with those distasteful lyrics…

By the way, Dan Barker, in his new book, Godless, talks about the relationship of music to faith, and how he dealt with his piano playing in church services after he realized he no longer believed in the deity/dogma. It was very awkward and traumatic for him. It sounds to me as though you’re working the whole thing out in a more skillful manner than he was able to do at the time. But he was also a minister as well as a father and husband, so in fairness his situation was more complex.

The issue of how I raise my children is a much larger, thornier one. My starting point is that I have no right to pull the plug on their religious upbringing just because I have personally reneged on the deal. I don't think I've earned that right yet. I certainly will need to be honest with them about what I believe (or don't) when the time comes.
...
My wife has been really good about not pressuring me into going to church. It's a journey for her too, having an atheist husband. In the meantime, as long as I'm going to church, I'm going to play a little music there because in a perverse kind of way I suspect it might help keep me sane!

Good on your wife for her support and love for you! I suspect the fact that your pastor seems a very reasonable sort has been helpful to your marriage, too.

Kids are experts at reading between all sorts of lines, no? So “when the time comes” it may be that they’ll tell you what they’ve figured out about you and maybe even about God and church, and you’ll just have to say, “Yes, you’ve got the gist of it.”


Asides:
My mother’s family was / is Baptist, so pianos were thought OK for church.
My father’s family came from a Primitive Baptist / U.S. Southern style Church of Christ, in which all musical instruments were verboten in any church service. I was raised in the latter (naturally, given the role of women in the Christian family).
So when I’ve attended a few of these new-fangled churches that have guitars and amplifiers and drums the incongruity of it still freaks me out a little bit – it feels like I went into the wrong building by mistake.
It certainly seems a less serious and devout endeavor to me to have this more “performance-based” situation (including the little “skits” I’ve seen) in a church service. But that, of course, is just my own historical bias showing through.

I was recently given my great-grandmother’s (from the Baptist side) 90-year-old upright grand piano. Had the action refurbished and a tuning – it sounds pretty good. I’m not (yet) a player much beyond a child’s version of “Chopsticks,” and a bit of lame left-hand boogie, but I’m thrilled to have the instrument. What a world lies within those keys!

On about 9/14 or 15/2001, when everybody in New York City was still "shocked and awed" by the acts of nineteen devout believers, I went to Riverside Church to hear a talk by the Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh. During this event, Judy Collins led everyone, a thousand people or so, I'd guess, in singing Amazing Grace.
Of course, the sound was beautiful, and combined with such an extraordinary moment when everybody so profoundly needed to feel as though we were together, it almost didn't matter what the words were. It was just flat moving. I'm sure tears were rolling down my face.
But at the same time, the thing made me really uncomfortable, because I knew that the men who had flown the airplanes into the buildings, and who had first murdered the pilots, one of whom was one of my favorite human beings, had their own analogue(s) of Amazing Grace (though probably not as melodious), which they, too, found highly moving.

[NH Baritone]

My wife has been really good about not pressuring me into going to church. It's a journey for her too, having an atheist husband. In the meantime, as long as I'm going to church, I'm going to play a little music there because in a perverse kind of way I suspect it might help keep me sane!

When I have to go to church, I have tended to internally take on the role of anthropologist. I use the time to study the quirky culture of the people I'm with, much as I would if I were to go to any foreign country.

To carry that metaphor further, it occurs to me that you are now ensconced in a cross-cultural marriage. Some of the material used to support such relationships may prove helpful to you and your wife.

[Kiwi]

Thanks guys, those are all helpful comments. Yes, oddly, a cross cultural marriage is kind of where I've ended up. Fortunately I know all about her 'culture' ... she needs to learn about mine. And I need the freedom to learn about my new culture too without too much confusion.

I like the anthropological angle. I certainly have been watching church services in a detached, observation mode for the last couple of years. I'm honestly not too concerned about getting wooed by the spirit as I play. The issue I expect to wrestle with more is: am I being hypocritical by playing in such a way that I help manipulate the congregation into a place of worshipfulness? I know I can do that. "Ooh, everyone's getting a bit swept away now, let's build it up and sweep them away even more as we approach the chorus."

Our pastor is certainly a decent guy. He asked me where I was on my 'journey' and which way I was facing. I said I was heading away from God but always looking back towards God just to make sure that He still wasn't there. He liked that.

I gave him total permission to pull me from the team if he thinks I'm becoming a piece of atheist poison there. I don't expect that to happen, but I'd respect him if he did.

[NH Baritone]

Thanks guys, those are all helpful comments. Yes, oddly, a cross cultural marriage is kind of where I've ended up. Fortunately I know all about her 'culture' ... she needs to learn about mine. And I need the freedom to learn about my new culture too without too much confusion.

A word of warning: I don't think you can dictate to her that she needs to learn about your "culture." You learned about Christianity from being raised within it. You developed the interest to explore it further and found its foundation on sand. There is no commandment that she has to follow your course.

If she doesn't, it will leave a gap between the two of you, but it may not be insurmountable. Plenty of marriages have a husband who eats, sleeps, and breathes sports and a wife who doesn't know the difference between a baseball and a basketball.

I like the anthropological angle. I certainly have been watching church services in a detached, observation mode for the last couple of years. I'm honestly not too concerned about getting wooed by the spirit as I play. The issue I expect to wrestle with more is: am I being hypocritical by playing in such a way that I help manipulate the congregation into a place of worshipfulness? I know I can do that. "Ooh, everyone's getting a bit swept away now, let's build it up and sweep them away even more as we approach the chorus."

Our pastor is certainly a decent guy. He asked me where I was on my 'journey' and which way I was facing. I said I was heading away from God but always looking back towards God just to make sure that He still wasn't there. He liked that.

I gave him total permission to pull me from the team if he thinks I'm becoming a piece of atheist poison there. I don't expect that to happen, but I'd respect him if he did.

Well, these paragraphs are full of all sorts of moral dilemmas! Good luck in winding your way through the ethical mine field.