Ep. 81: The Switch

[Redpower]

I don't know enough about them to say definitively, I rarely trust news stories anymore...there's always a spin, always an angle. But I will add to what MM said. Jesus didn't seem to be all that concerned about legislated morality. He was concerned with the hearts of people...that they would be something different. I am not sure that you can legislate that kind of transformation of being.

You rarely trust news stories for reasons that are more skeptic driven and presumptuous than my reasons for not believing the text of the bible...

Scott, going with your definition of Christian, couldn't an atheist be a Christian? Or are they excluded because they don't believe Jesus was God's son/God?? If so, why is this condition of exclusivity necessary? Because non-believers/skeptics are too stupid to see the truth?

Doesn't this system seem a little screwy to you?

I do not think you are a "Christian", Scott. By most any definition that is consistent with scripture anyway... I really do hate the struggle you are in, I would be fascinated to know if you really are an atheist. Just tell the truth, it's not that bad... People don't need to fear punishment or seek reward to lead healthy/productive/loving lives and you know it.

None of your religion makes sense. There is no evidence to prove ANY of the supernatural claims, but there is evidence to the contrary... Even if the bible is true, it isn't good news and is nothing to be proud of following. The God of the old was vile and the God of the new was a nice guy with seemingly good yet naive intentions and likely a liar for what he thought was the greater good. A lot like you, huh?

[NH Baritone]

NHB,
Just a note. Your resignation is, of course, familiar.
By way of possible consolation, are you familiar with Paine's Age of Reason?
While discussing Paul and the NT bits attributed (accurately or not) to him, Paine wrote:
A religion thus interlarded with quibble, subterfuge, and pun, has a tendency to instruct its professors in the practice of these arts. They acquire the habit without being aware of the cause.

And then in a frustration that reminds me of your own, discussing the bizarre mythological soap opera of Jesus, a few lines later Paine wrote:
...everything in this strange system is the reverse of what it pretends to be. It is the reverse of truth, and I become so tired of examining into its inconsistencies and absurdities, that I hasten to the conclusion of it, in order to proceed to something better.

Never a more apt quote. I find that I have too little tolerance of woo and too few callouses on my noodle to endlessly bang against the brick walls erected by those who insist the world is ruled by magic, walls built to shield them from rationality .

That last quote reminds me of this hilarious bit from my favorite youtube cartoon maker.

Superb!

[Rian]

Don't you mean "Ouche" ?

Ha! Touché

Good ones!

[Matt]

Wow. Step away for a couple of days and you're hopelessly lost in the comments.

NH Baritone,

I don't think Scott and I were in away redefining Christianity. We both accept Nicene Christianity as normative. But this doesn't mean that everything a Christian does is Christian. We have a category for things called "sin." So, when I said that the behaviors of people like Fred Phelps was not Christian, I didn't mean that Fred Phelps was not a Christian. In fact, I think I explicitly said that I wasn't going to judge the salvation of anyone that you mentioned. Whther Fred Phelps is a Christian or not is between Fred Phelps and God. However, bahaving the way he behaves is not Christian--it is "sin." The Fathers at Nicea would have acknowledged this.

As for the folks in California--sure their actions are springing from Christian mission. It seems like there are a lot of Baptists on this forum that see a sharp distinction between church and state and disagreee with these people in California's actions. So be it. But, I'll grant you that their behavior is springing from their beliefs.

What is your problem with what they are doing, other than that you disagree with the politics? Are you suggesting that other groups don't have agendas or lobby for change? Shouldn't you applaud them for being good citizens and encouraging change through the democratic process? Or would you rather see people sit back and let the aristocracy handle things? If you disagree with them, shouldn't the appropriate response be to lobby for your beliefs?

Your argument that Christian humanitarianism is irrelevant because there are secular humanitarians doesn't fly, either. Christian humanitarians are motivated by their beliefs to do good. Atheist humanitarians are motivated by their beliefs to do good. Okay. Some people use Christianity to justify hate. Okay. Are you suggesting that people can't be motivated by atheism to hate? If you're going to argue that atheist humanitarianists discount Christian humanitarians, than you have to concede that atheist haters discount Christian ones.

[Matt]

Allow me to phrase the kind of Christian response I would have made when I was a believer:

It is true that Christianity has done a lot of harm in its 2000 years on the planet. It has also simultaneously, and perhaps paradoxically, done a lot of good. This is possible because people understand the Christian message in different ways.

The unified Church has disassembled itself over these differences. We're all Christians, in that we all accept at least most of the elements in the Nicene creed, but beyond that, people are motivated by faith to follow different and sometimes contradictory paths.

I focus on Jesus' message of justice and charity. Some Christians hear something different from the gospels, and some of them, I believe, misinterpret the Christian message for modern times.

When those misinterpretations cause alienation, oppression, and harm, I share your anger at the intolerance and I grieve with the victims. I repeatedly seek to change the minds of those who turn the message of Christ into a message of persecution.

If there is any way I can temper some Christians' obsession with judgment and condemnation, please let me know. And if you need to hear my apology for the harm caused you by members of my Christian family, then I sadly and humbly offer it to you.

Right. So, you didn't learn to speak snark until after you became an atheist? Please.

I don't mean to attack you personally, NH Baritone. I'm sure you're a good guy. I don't have a problem challenging your thinking--I appreciate your challenging mine. It is difficult to pick up on people's tone in the context of an internet forum. I apologize if I have come across as an ass.

[NH Baritone]

As for the folks in California--sure their actions are springing from Christian mission. It seems like there are a lot of Baptists on this forum that see a sharp distinction between church and state and disagreee with these people in California's actions. So be it. But, I'll grant you that their behavior is springing from their beliefs.

What is your problem with what they are doing, other than that you disagree with the politics? Are you suggesting that other groups don't have agendas or lobby for change? Shouldn't you applaud them for being good citizens and encouraging change through the democratic process? Or would you rather see people sit back and let the aristocracy handle things? If you disagree with them, shouldn't the appropriate response be to lobby for your beliefs?

Why do I have to keep repeating this???

It is the "mission" of Christians that scares the shit out of me. For it often involves following some leader or ideology they believe God has made holy, regardless of the real world consequences that occur.

This is not some hypothetical or theoretical discussion for me. The Christian church is both directly and indirectly responsible for the oppression, imprisonment, and execution of millions of gay men & lesbians through the years. Christians are not alone in this effort, but in Western culture, all others pale in comparison.

I have personally faced down screaming Christians protesting at gay rights events, town meetings, and legislation sessions. These are people who are convinced by their religious faith that I deserve to lose my job and go to jail, simply because I love in a way differently than their religious text dictates. And since they are losing this battle in the US, thanks to the funding they receive from their fellow Christians, many missionaries are actively promoting these oppressive government practices in Africa.

I have also sat with sobbing gay teenagers whose families ejected them into the street while roaring scripture to them, and other gay teenagers who are terrified of similar treatment. Each week many are forced to attend services where pastors teach them to hate themselves.

This is why I want less Christian mission. I know I can't make it happen, and I would fight anyone who would try to force Christians into silence. That is part of the price of the freedom I enjoy. But each day I live knowing that the majority of the practitioners of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam consider it their mission to prevent people like me from similarly enjoying life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

And when you defend them as you have, you scare me, too.

Your argument that Christian humanitarianism is irrelevant because there are secular humanitarians doesn't fly, either. Christian humanitarians are motivated by their beliefs to do good. Atheist humanitarians are motivated by their beliefs to do good. Okay. Some people use Christianity to justify hate. Okay. Are you suggesting that people can't be motivated by atheism to hate? If you're going to argue that atheist humanitarianists discount Christian humanitarians, than you have to concede that atheist haters discount Christian ones.

Yes, allow me to precisely say that atheism, because it is a lack of belief, does not motivate anything at all.

There is no such thing as an atheist mission, an atheist dogma, an atheist fashion, an atheist color scheme, and if it weren't for the fact that there are so many religious folks trying to win converts and impose their bigoted will on other people, there would be no need of atheist organizations simply trying to keep woo-woo at out of governmental life.

You can be no more motivated by atheism than you can be motivated by disinterest in discotheques, apathy about apples, or indifference regarding Indianapolis.

But we can be motivated by fear, and as long as Christians seek to impose their superstition-derived will on us, we must organize to protect ourselves from the likes of you.

[Rian]

But I say to you and to Scott that none of that means that news reports are not important and relevant or that news reports should be disregarded or brushed off when they don’t fit one’s desires or preconceptions.

I agree.

Also I suggest that when news reports of horrors created by, and the hypocrisies of, people who all share a particular kind of non-evidence-based belief come day after day, week after week, year after year, and when the history of the world is replete with similar reports, that just might point toward a very real and significant problem having something to do with that sort of belief.

True.

But of course, the people who hold that belief dear will just cry, "Anecdotes! Nothing but anecdotes! Nothing to do with me and my belief!"

I've seen so much good, and no bad, from myself and people that I respect holding Christian beliefs, so it only seems reasonable to think that the bad stuff comes from the two things that I said before, which were:

1) there are people who claim to be Christian for their own selfish reasons because they see it as a way to have power, and they abuse this power. These would be those of whom Jesus spoke of as calling him "Lord" but are not actual followers of him.

2) there are people who are Christians but who are really messed up and make mistakes. Remember, Jesus said that he came for those who are sick!

Now I do bad things sometimes, but not based on my beliefs; the bad I've done goes against Christian doctrine.

It is also true that many religious people are utterly unaware and/or in willful denial about much of the good done in the world by secular groups (who have no need to trumpet their secular nature by calling themselves “atheist” or “humanist” or whatever – they simply do the work) and even by other religious groups who do not base their wonderful humanitarian actions on Jesus or Christian teachings in any way shape or form.

I've said many times that many atheists are nicer than many Christians. What's really relevant is the starting point of the Christian and which direction they've travelled.

To fully acknowledge even a good portion of those activities would make Christians realize that there is nothing that special about the teachings of Jesus after all, wouldn’t it?

In the area of morals, it's at the top IMO, but Christianity isn't all about morals by any means.

Simply put, there are, and have always been, human beings who by combination of inclination and instruction care a great deal about others and there are people who do not care so much.

Agreed, and I find that Christianity takes a person wherever they are and makes them better.

And as I noted in my first response to Scott’s “atheist” position on the podcast, I think that overall, there is no doubt that religious belief does more to isolate and divide and to cause suffering than to bring together, and it will always be so as long as there are people who see the Bible and Koran or any other texts as being “divine.”

"Bring[ing] together" may not always be the highest good, however, especially if people are together in hell! I would definitely say that Christianity isn't easy and comfortable, but those things aren't the highest good if a person needs changing.

Be that as it may, I absolutely echo marcuspnw’s response to your Mexico story – bravo!

Thanks!

But without minimizing at all the good works of you and your church group and many similar efforts – some of which, btw, I’m familiar with personally – they are no more representative of the effects of god beliefs overall, nor indicative of their rationality or truth, than the story of your visit south of the border is representative of the entire history and current status of Mexico.

From my own personal experience and the experience of Christians that I admire, I disagree with you, at least as far as Christianity is concerned.

But it's always like that, isn't it? Each particular Christian and his or her immediate cohorts think that they are the true Christians.

But Brad, Jesus himself did this - he mentions those who call him "Lord" and yet are not his followers. He says that we'll know Christians by their works. So we're just doing what Jesus did. I don't see a problem with that.

You missed the point entirely, Rian.

If your point is typically what the point is when people say what you did (that if, say, N groups make this claim, then at the least N-1 are wrong and at the most all are wrong), then I didn't miss it. Was that your point? If it wasn't, please let me know what it was. If it was, then I guess you're missing MY point! which was that it's a valid thing to say (although it doesn't tell you which particular one is right). As far as the different Christian groups, I think that each GROUP gets some things right and some things wrong, and each PERSON may or may not be a Christian - only God knows, although their works are a guideline.

No, I wasn’t referring to you particularly.

OK. Well, anyway, as I said, I certainly don't deny that terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity. However, I think those things don't show that Christianity itself is wrong.

[Rian]

I think that the worst of my list of bad attributes is selfishness. God and I have fought a lot of battles over this one, and I'm just so blessed by how much he has worked a change in my heart in this area. IMO, that's one of the best things about Christianity - it brings you out of yourself into something much more than yourself, while still not losing your self - it's perfecting yourself and giving you more than yourself.

But it was your own self, your own mind and effort, that did that.

Yes, that's one thing I like about Christianity - you're not some robot, or taken over by some force - it's YOU - only better!

I get the idea that you were inspired but inspiration only goes so far.

But it's not merely inspiration, humanguy. It's transformation.

It was you who made the changes you describe.

I disagree - it was God and me together.

It was you that went down to Mexico, it was you who contirbuted to the good work that was being done there.

Yes, because of God's transforming power in my life.

It was you who "changed your heart." And it is you who is becoming more than what you were, you who are perfecting yourself, and you're achieving it by your own effort and nobody else's.

I disagree, but we won't agree here.

And I salute you for your efforts and for your achievement.

Thank you. Are there any particular areas of need that you like to help in?

[humanguy]

Are there any particular areas of need that you like to help in?

Yes, but I choose to not talk about it.

[Rian]

I don't talk about it either, unless the subject comes up, as it did here, but since we're talking about it, I'd love to hear what areas you're interested in helping with - it's always interesting to hear ways that others help out.

[spongebob]

I read a news article a few days ago about some Christian groups who are determined to put politics and division aside and focus more on helping people and promoting caring and compassionate behaviors. I had no luck in finding a link, but the story is only a few days old, so some others may have seen it as well. Movements like this, if successful, would go a long way towards reforming errant religious groups that do more harm than good.

[humanguy]

I don't talk about it either, unless the subject comes up, as it did here, but since we're talking about it, I'd love to hear what areas you're interested in helping with - it's always interesting to hear ways that others help out.

Homelessness and mental health care, two issues quite close to me. I'm no hero or anything, though.

[mitchellmckain]

I am sorry but the things that some people say... my gorge rises at it, and so I cannot but help to spew it out and that is why my response may seem a bit unpleasant and vomitous.

I don't know enough about them to say definitively, I rarely trust news stories anymore...there's always a spin, always an angle. But I will add to what MM said. Jesus didn't seem to be all that concerned about legislated morality. He was concerned with the hearts of people...that they would be something different. I am not sure that you can legislate that kind of transformation of being.

You rarely trust news stories for reasons that are more skeptic driven and presumptuous than my reasons for not believing the text of the bible...

Scott, going with your definition of Christian, couldn't an atheist be a Christian? Or are they excluded because they don't believe Jesus was God's son/God??

That is correct. That is the definition of Christianity according to the first eccumenical council to make a ruling on the matter in the Nicean creed.

If so, why is this condition of exclusivity necessary? Because non-believers/skeptics are too stupid to see the truth?

What utter BS and nonsense. Can I be an atheist even though I believe in God or are you making a condition of exclusivity necessary for being an atheist? I KNOW that it is because you think that anyone who disagrees with your opinions is too stupid to see the "truth".

Christianity is simply a name for certain belief. If you don't believe then the term does not apply. Likewise if I believe there is a God, by the definition of atheism, that term would not apply to me. What is so complicated about this for you?

Doesn't this system seem a little screwy to you?

Your post seems way more than a little screwy to me.

I do not think you are a "Christian", Scott. By most any definition that is consistent with scripture anyway...

LOL LOL LOL Now that is one I never heard before. (HEAVY sarcasm)

I really do hate the struggle you are in, I would be fascinated to know if you really are an atheist. Just tell the truth, it's not that bad... People don't need to fear punishment or seek reward to lead healthy/productive/loving lives and you know it.

You like this absurd kind of patronizing condescension? OK, you ask for it. I really feel sorry for you. To justify this way of life you have lived pursuing your desires at the expense of others, you must have had to crush your humanity within you. How you must have lied to yourself over and over everyday to convince yourself that you are ok and that there is nobody and nothing out there that can see all the ugly, mean, spiteful and selfish things you have done. I can really understand your desperate need to believe that things you have done have no consequences whatsoever. Such unbearable desperation that you have to pretend that you know better and hide from the truth that you really know nothing but fear. But the more you run from the truth, the more you feed this fear and the more it consumes your life in a neverending cycle.

None of your religion makes sense. There is no evidence to prove ANY of the supernatural claims, but there is evidence to the contrary... Even if the bible is true, it isn't good news and is nothing to be proud of following.

None of what you say makes any sense. There is no evidence to prove ANY of your claims. I understand that you cannot find any truth in the Bible. Jesus explains that many people will not (Matt 13:10-15, John 12:39-40). Seeing the work of God they will not see it. Hearing the good news they will not hear it.
Hardening their hearts they will not accept the love and forgiveness that is offered to them freely. And so choosing death over life they will refuse to be healed.

The God of the old was vile and the God of the new was a nice guy with seemingly good yet naive intentions and likely a liar for what he thought was the greater good. A lot like you, huh?

Yes God and the world is like a mirror and in it you see yourself reflected. The liar sees himself surrounded by liars, the theif sees himself surounded by theives and the hateful person sees himself surrounded by by a cold, indifferent and hostile world. But if you seek after the truth, the universe will will become a place of light, and if you give of yourself and work to create things you will find a world full of good things, and if you are kind and helpful to others the world will be a warm and comforting place. So perhaps the reason you see nothing out there is because there is nothing inside of you.

[humanguy]

if you give of yourself and work to create things you will find a world full of good things, and if you are kind and helpful to others the world will be a warm and comforting place.

You've just described me, Mitch. My world is indeed a world full of good things, it's a warm and comforting place filled with beauty, joy and inspiration. And I'm an atheist! Now how does that work?

[mitchellmckain]

if you give of yourself and work to create things you will find a world full of good things, and if you are kind and helpful to others the world will be a warm and comforting place.

You've just descibed me, Mitch. And I'm an atheist! Now how does that work?

Its not about Christain or atheist. It is about attitude. I thought we talked about that already. But if you talked to me like the way that Redpower guy talks to Scott, I would be vomiting it all back onto you too.